My love and concern for the UMC, and, how is this supposed to be Traditional Worship?

[seeking.IAM]

... Personally, I can tolerate a certain level of nonsense in a church service...

I love this phrase. The word "nonsense" resonated with me. Not so much about the UMC in particular, but as to how I feel about many modern worship trends in general.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I love this phrase. The word "nonsense" resonated with me. Not so much about the UMC in particular, but as to how I feel about many modern worship trends in general.

Thanks! That is really how I see many of the contemporary worship trends.

 

[The Liturgist]

The UMC is a sad story, indeed. I well remember when it swallowed up the EUBC (Evangelical United Brethren Church) which, in general, was theologically conservative. In my current city there is a former EUBC church which has a reputation as being a theologically conservative bastion. A friend of mine, who is a persistent church-hopper, visited this church this past Sunday. He chose to attend the "modern" service rather than the "traditional" service. Apart from the trappings of the musical genre, the sermon was very seriously flawed theologically. Personally, I can tolerate a certain level of nonsense in a church service, but I have little to no tolerance for teaching which flies in the face of the clear teaching of scripture.

I will tolerate neither. For doctrinal error or irreverent worship, I proudly have a closed mind, closed heart and will slam the doors of my parish in the face of any who want it and exclaim “Anathema maranatha!”

 

[bbbbbbb]

I will tolerate neither. For doctrinal error or irreverent worship, I proudly have a closed mind, closed heart and will slam the doors of my parish in the face of any who want it and exclaim “Anathema maranatha!”

To be clear, I do not embrace nonsense in worship. There are times, however, when I find myself in a church where the focus is very much on the emotional response of the congregation and not on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Rather than make a scene in my friend's church I typically wait it out, hopting at least for a bit of truth in the sermon.

 

[The Liturgist]

To be clear, I do not embrace nonsense in worship. There are times, however, when I find myself in a church where the focus is very much on the emotional response of the congregation and not on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Rather than make a scene in my friend's church I typically wait it out, hopting at least for a bit of truth in the sermon.

Indeed that is courteous, I was speaking as a clergyman and not as a laity.

Here is a fun fact: the early church had a canon which anathematized people who left after the sermon and did not wait for the Eucharistic prayer even if they were not receiving communion. Also, the ancient liturgies have various ways for the deacon to tell people to settle down, such as the Byzantine “Stomen kalos” which means “Stand aright” to the Mozarabic (Toledo, Spain, under Arab rule) where the deacon exclaims “Be silent!” This reminds me of the classically Roman brevity of the traditional dismissal from the Roman Mass, and also the source of the word “Mass” itself, “Ite, missa est” which means “Go, it is the dismissal”, which contrasts with the long and flowery benedictions at the end of the Eastern liturgical rites. I particularly like the end of the West Syriac Rite where the priest blesses the congregation and then asks them to always pray for him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed that is courteous, I was speaking as a clergyman and not as a laity.

Here is a fun fact: the early church had a canon which anathematized people who left after the sermon and did not wait for the Eucharistic prayer even if they were not receiving communion. Also, the ancient liturgies have various ways for the deacon to tell people to settle down, such as the Byzantine “Stomen kalos” which means “Stand aright” to the Mozarabic (Toledo, Spain, under Arab rule) where the deacon exclaims “Be silent!” This reminds me of the classically Roman brevity of the traditional dismissal from the Roman Mass, and also the source of the word “Mass” itself, “Ite, missa est” which means “Go, it is the dismissal”, which contrasts with the long and flowery benedictions at the end of the Eastern liturgical rites. I particularly like the end of the West Syriac Rite where the priest blesses the congregation and then asks them to always pray for him.

Thank you. If I were in your position of authority I would definitely not tolerate nonsense in the service.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you. If I were in your position of authority I would definitely not tolerate nonsense in the service.

Indeed, although this is not a problem I have to contend with, other than politely refusing suggestions. By the way the rubrics for the traditional liturgies have “Stomen Kalos!” Proclaimed at specific times; I have never actually seen a liturgical service book with instructions on what to do with a disruptive person or hooligan, but most churches have ushers, Anglicans also traditionally have fearsome dudes called Vergers, so called because they carry a formidable mace or staff called a verge, although their function is primarily ceremonial and concerns timing processions, and the ancient church had an ordained order called Doorkeeper; Doorkeepers were one rank above Exorcist, which was actually the lowest, or technically according to Christ the highest, rank, in the early Church, since the bishop is required to be servant of all and least among the ministers, a requirement in practice ignored by many infamously poor shepherds and wolfs in sheeps clothing, one of the earliest being Paul of Samosata, who is also as far as I can tell the world’s first Unitarian.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, although this is not a problem I have to contend with, other than politely refusing suggestions. By the way the rubrics for the traditional liturgies have “Stomen Kalos!” Proclaimed at specific times; I have never actually seen a liturgical service book with instructions on what to do with a disruptive person or hooligan, but most churches have ushers, Anglicans also traditionally have fearsome dudes called Vergers, so called because they carry a formidable mace or staff called a verge, although their function is primarily ceremonial and concerns timing processions, and the ancient church had an ordained order called Doorkeeper; Doorkeepers were one rank above Exorcist, which was actually the lowest, or technically according to Christ the highest, rank, in the early Church, since the bishop is required to be servant of all and least among the ministers, a requirement in practice ignored by many infamously poor shepherds and wolfs in sheeps clothing, one of the earliest being Paul of Samosata, who is also as far as I can tell the world’s first Unitarian.

Thanks again for this wealth of information. I know of several large churches which employ bodyguards for their pastors during the service.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks again for this wealth of information. I know of several large churches which employ bodyguards for their pastors during the service.

I would never do that because as Presbyter I am accountable for the lives of my congregation and not vice versa, and I don’t conduct church services as if I were Jerry Springer.

The penultimate scene of the film Becket about St. Thomas Becket depicts how I feel the leader of a church should react to an attack on his person during the service. As for the monks flogging King Henry who was responsible for the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, that I do not associate myself with; if that actually happened those monks would be in violation of the Apostolic Canons, which prohibits anyone in holy orders from striking someone in order to elicit repentance or for any other purpose, under penalty of being defrocked.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...I have never actually seen a liturgical service book with instructions on what to do with a disruptive person or hooligan, but most churches have ushers, Anglicans also traditionally have fearsome dudes called Vergers, so called because they carry a formidable mace or staff called a verge, although their function is primarily ceremonial...

Alas, my church has only used a Verger once on what turned out to be the wrong day, and our ushers are a friendly but timid lot. There was another day where I fantasized grabbing a verge myself had one been nearby to whack a congregant so bold as to rise from the pew to challenge and debate our Rector in the midst of his sermon. After several uncomfortable minutes that felt like hours, she stormed out and soon left the parish for good thereafter. Forgive me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would never do that because as Presbyter I am accountable for the lives of my congregation and not vice versa, and I don’t conduct church services as if I were Jerry Springer.

The penultimate scene of the film Becket about St. Thomas Becket depicts how I feel the leader of a church should react to an attack on his person during the service. As for the monks flogging King Henry who was responsible for the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, that I do not associate myself with; if that actually happened those monks would be in violation of the Apostolic Canons, which prohibits anyone in holy orders from striking someone in order to elicit repentance or for any other purpose, under penalty of being defrocked.

Actually, I think that in the case of large churches there is a professional security force employed not merely to protect the pastor, but also the congregants. Sadly, we live in a time of increasing violence and terror.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, I think that in the case of large churches there is a professional security force employed not merely to protect the pastor, but also the congregants. Sadly, we live in a time of increasing violence and terror.

In the megachurches yes, and in cathedrals when heads of state are present. I have no qualms about taking security measures for my congregation, but under the canon law of the early church, I cannot personally strike anyone or kill anyone and maintain my office, nor can anyone who has committed homicide even legally be admitted to Holy Orders, even as a reader or doorkeeper, without what the Eastern Orthodox call economy (which was granted, even in the strict fourth century church; see St. Moses the Black , who is much venerated by Coptic and Ethiopian Christians but also by Eastern Christians in general. Indeed some years ago I visited the tree where the abbot of the first Coptic monastery in North America, St. Karas, had a vision of St. Moses, and that was a special experience; they built a spectacular cathedral next to it which I think is the most beautiful church in the Mojave Desert, at least in California (there are some spectacular Orthodox churches and one beautiful old Roman Catholic church in the Las Vegas area; I think Phoenix is considered to be part of the Sonora Desert so its many fine churches are not on the list for technical reasons). But whatever security measures are needed to protect the congregation I assent to.

 

[The Liturgist]

Alas, my church has only used a Verger once on what turned out to be the wrong day, and our ushers are a friendly but timid lot. There was another day where I fantasized grabbing a verge myself had one been nearby to whack a congregant so bold as to rise from the pew to challenge and debate our Rector in the midst of his sermon. After several uncomfortable minutes that felt like hours, she stormed out and soon left the parish for good thereafter. Forgive me.

It sounds like they were on the verge of an unpleasant experience had you become any more annoyed.