My love and concern for the UMC, and, how is this supposed to be Traditional Worship?

[The Liturgist]

This really upsets me, because I was baptized in a Methodist church, and loved the experience of worshipping in them (in my youth, I had close contact with the UMCs, where we went to church, an SBC school where I went to through second grade, and an LCMS school which I attended for the duration; we occasionally worshipped at those parishes whenever my father’s preferred elders was not present at the Methodist church, or when the elders were translated, as commonly happens due to the connexional nature of the UMC, while he got used to the new
“preacher” as he and many southerners of his generation, memory eternal, called Protestant clergy, and so we also visited a Presbyterian church we liked. I had a beloved relative who lived in another state who attended a UCC church called “First Congregational” and as we fairly frequently traveled to see her, this was my introduction to the UCC and Congregationalism. In my late teenage years, we moved to a location closer to the university where my father taught and unbeknownst to me, he really loved Anglicanism, having studied at an Episcopal-associated university in the US and at Oxford, and he was actually surprisingly moderate and broad church. I really enjoyed that church, but was only there briefly before college, and it was not until 2010 I joined an Episcopal parish, after having left the UCC in the mid 2000s, because I believe we should not presume to put a comma where God intended a period (anyone remember that ad campaign?)

However, I am kind of over the UCC, in that its very sad what happened, but it happened, and scores of conservative parishes disaffiliated and many became non denominational, and increasingly, the Confessional movement in the UCC and the Faithful and Welcoming group of traditional parishes are looking unstable.

However, I have a special connection with Methodism - which is why I am so frustrated about the planned schism when the traditional Methodists have a majority and should simply enforce the Traditional Plan they voted for at the last General Conference.

Equally frustrating however, is the decline of Methodist worship. I am in the land of the Mormons this evening, and was depressed, but not surprised, to see a “traditional” service with a Christian Rock type band, singing inane praise and worship songs, while the excellent 1989 hymnals sit in the pews collecting dust. There is probably a disconnected Hammond organ, or there was at one time, and a piano, but now, traditional apparently means contemporary, and I was afraid to look at the contemporary service.

I want to see the UMC revitalized with traditional morality and traditional worship - the beautiful church I grew up in. Recently I discovered the website of a group of Wesleyan Anglicans centered around a Nazarene parish in Kentucky, and some nearby Nazarene parishes, using the Book of Common Prayer which John Wesley adopted for the Methodist Episcopal Church, which makes me even more sad, because that should be happening in the UMC, which is the successor to the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Evangelical United Brethren (mainly German American and other Continental immigrants who had embraced Wesleyanism either in their homeland or on arrival in the US; the name suggests a connection to the Unity of the Brethren, the Moravians, who John Wesley had a special connection with.

Unfortunately, I lack the power to snap my fingers like Q (the new season of Picard looks worse than the first, if such a thing were possible), and transform the UMC back into the church of strong moral values and beautiful worship I grew up in. I still have my Book of Hymns and Book of Worship from 1965, however, and I am friends with some liturgically and theologically,traditionalist UMC elders. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough; it seems like a greater number of liturgically conservative elders are also theologically liberal, and vice versa. This is one reason why the impending schism upsets me so much: I fear that we will wind up with a liberal church with traditional worship, basically the UCC with episcopal polity, and a conservative church with contemporary worship not much different from the Calvary Chapel, only with bishops.

*in the Central Valley, although not in the parish in Modesto where George Lucas was baptized; I was 5 when Empire Strikes Back came out and 8 when Return of the Jedi came out, and 9 or 10 when Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom* came out, which is the only Indiana Jones film I like, but I really like it, so that would have been awesome)

 

[seeking.IAM]

I certainly agree with much of what you said. I was raised in Methodist/UMC parsonages throughout my state, was baptized in the Methodist Church, and remained Methodist until I was in my 50's. I have great affection for the UMC and grieve over what is becoming of it. I remember the day of my baptism, and I remember the day in the pew when my chronic emptiness during services led me to say, "I'm done."

Toward the end, there was an insidious erosion of liturgy and traditional worship that finally did me in. My church devolved into a theatrical musical production, missing only the applause meter. I viewed the UMC as a dog chasing its own tail, trying innovation in a failed attempt to stave off declining membership. I think what gets passed off as "contemporary" may be better labeled as "casual." And, one should never be casual about worship.

And, whatever side one takes on the LGBTQ issue, my criticism about the UMC is they don't have the courage to decide and get on with it. They've been kicking the can up the road for too many years, causing deep wounds while they hope to heal. Decide already.

 

[The Liturgist]

I certainly agree with much of what you said. I was raised in Methodist/UMC parsonages throughout my state, was baptized in the Methodist Church, and remained Methodist until I was in my 50's. I have great affection for the UMC and grieve over what is becoming of it. I remember the day of my baptism, and I remember the day in the pew when my chronic emptiness during services led me to say, "I'm done."

Toward the end, there was an insidious erosion of liturgy and traditional worship that finally did me in. My church devolved into a theatrical musical production, missing only the applause meter. I viewed the UMC as a dog chasing its own tail, trying innovation in a failed attempt to stave off declining membership. I think what gets passed off as "contemporary" may be better labeled as "casual." And, one should never be casual about worship.

And, whatever side one takes on the LGBTQ issue, my criticism about the UMC is they don't have the courage to decide and get on with it. They've been kicking the can up the road for too many years, causing deep wounds while they hope to heal. Decide already.

Well, they did decide repeatedly, but then at every GC, a new vote was held to challenge the prior one, and after finally deciding on the Traditional Plan, with a
clear majority, now apparently the denomination is breaking up, and the majority party doesn’t get to keep the UMC name as far as I can tell.

One thing about this that rubs me the wrong way is the UMC is the only mainline denomination that incorporated its foreign missions directly into the main church, with such bishops serving alongside American bishops, like in the Roman Catholic church, but just as I feel like Athanasius Schneider and Cardinal Sarah are ignored by the Pope, the minority of North American liberals simply try to ignore the African majority at General Conference, and engage in acts of ecclesiastical defiance. This to me comes across as a dangerous neo-colonial attitude, the idea that the UMC’s African missions are somehow backwards and do not have the right they were historically promised to have their say, in speech and on the floor, on issues of sexual morality in the United States. There is a blog which really upsets me, HackingChristianity.net, whose author, Rev. Jeremy Smith of First UMC Seattle, which is on my list of divergent parishes due to offensive theological positions he takes in his blog, including criticizing the creeds and claiming Wesley opposed them, when Wesley included the Apostles Creed in the Sunday Service Book for the Methodists in North America, implicitly takes that view as a matter of course.

 

[chevyontheriver]

However, I have a special connection with Methodism - which is why I am so frustrated about the planned schism when the traditional Methodists have a majority and should simply enforce the Traditional Plan they voted for at the last General Conference.

Unfortunately, I lack the power to snap my fingers like Q (the new season of Picard looks worse than the first, if such a thing were possible), and transform the UMC back into the church of strong moral values and beautiful worship I grew up in. I still have my Book of Hymns and Book of Worship from 1965, however, and I am friends with some liturgically and theologically,traditionalist UMC elders. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough; it seems like a greater number of liturgically conservative elders are also theologically liberal, and vice versa. This is one reason why the impending schism upsets me so much: I fear that we will wind up with a liberal church with traditional worship, basically the UCC with episcopal polity, and a conservative church with contemporary worship not much different from the Calvary Chapel, only with bishops.

My connection with Methodism is that my grandfather started out as a Methodist before he became Catholic about 100 years ago. Not that there was much evidence of that time remaining for me to see as I was growing up. As a result of that personal history the Anglican Ordinariate guys say they could consider me for membership even though technically my connection should be that I myself was Anglican or Methodist, or at least one of my parents. My father was only ever Catholic so by a strict interpretation of their rules I would not qualify. They say they might bend a bit for me. We'll see. I'm not actively pursuing it at this moment. I am working through figuring out the recently published Ordinariate 'Divine Worship: Daily Office'. If and as it grows on me we'll see where it all goes. For now I am an ordinary Catholic, Roman Rite.

I would be sad to see a liturgically traditional Methodism be theologically liberal. Or contrawise a theologically faithful Methodism be liturgically 'contemporvant'. Maybe there is room for both of those options but I would pray that there be a faithful and historically liturgical option surviving when the bloodbath of this demolition finishes.

 

[Eftsoon]

This really upsets me, because I was baptized in a Methodist church, and loved the experience of worshipping in them (in my youth, I had close contact with the UMCs, where we went to church, an SBC school where I went to through second grade, and an LCMS school which I attended for the duration; we occasionally worshipped at those parishes whenever my father’s preferred elders was not present at the Methodist church, or when the elders were translated, as commonly happens due to the connexional nature of the UMC, while he got used to the new
“preacher” as he and many southerners of his generation, memory eternal, called Protestant clergy, and so we also visited a Presbyterian church we liked. I had a beloved relative who lived in another state who attended a UCC church called “First Congregational” and as we fairly frequently traveled to see her, this was my introduction to the UCC and Congregationalism. In my late teenage years, we moved to a location closer to the university where my father taught and unbeknownst to me, he really loved Anglicanism, having studied at an Episcopal-associated university in the US and at Oxford, and he was actually surprisingly moderate and broad church. I really enjoyed that church, but was only there briefly before college, and it was not until 2010 I joined an Episcopal parish, after having left the UCC in the mid 2000s, because I believe we should not presume to put a comma where God intended a period (anyone remember that ad campaign?)

However, I am kind of over the UCC, in that its very sad what happened, but it happened, and scores of conservative parishes disaffiliated and many became non denominational, and increasingly, the Confessional movement in the UCC and the Faithful and Welcoming group of traditional parishes are looking unstable.

However, I have a special connection with Methodism - which is why I am so frustrated about the planned schism when the traditional Methodists have a majority and should simply enforce the Traditional Plan they voted for at the last General Conference.

Equally frustrating however, is the decline of Methodist worship. I am in the land of the Mormons this evening, and was depressed, but not surprised, to see a “traditional” service with a Christian Rock type band, singing inane praise and worship songs, while the excellent 1989 hymnals sit in the pews collecting dust. There is probably a disconnected Hammond organ, or there was at one time, and a piano, but now, traditional apparently means contemporary, and I was afraid to look at the contemporary service.

I want to see the UMC revitalized with traditional morality and traditional worship - the beautiful church I grew up in. Recently I discovered the website of a group of Wesleyan Anglicans centered around a Nazarene parish in Kentucky, and some nearby Nazarene parishes, using the Book of Common Prayer which John Wesley adopted for the Methodist Episcopal Church, which makes me even more sad, because that should be happening in the UMC, which is the successor to the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Evangelical United Brethren (mainly German American and other Continental immigrants who had embraced Wesleyanism either in their homeland or on arrival in the US; the name suggests a connection to the Unity of the Brethren, the Moravians, who John Wesley had a special connection with.

Unfortunately, I lack the power to snap my fingers like Q (the new season of Picard looks worse than the first, if such a thing were possible), and transform the UMC back into the church of strong moral values and beautiful worship I grew up in. I still have my Book of Hymns and Book of Worship from 1965, however, and I am friends with some liturgically and theologically,traditionalist UMC elders. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough; it seems like a greater number of liturgically conservative elders are also theologically liberal, and vice versa. This is one reason why the impending schism upsets me so much: I fear that we will wind up with a liberal church with traditional worship, basically the UCC with episcopal polity, and a conservative church with contemporary worship not much different from the Calvary Chapel, only with bishops.

*in the Central Valley, although not in the parish in Modesto where George Lucas was baptized; I was 5 when Empire Strikes Back came out and 8 when Return of the Jedi came out, and 9 or 10 when Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom* came out, which is the only Indiana Jones film I like, but I really like it, so that would have been awesome)

Do you believe that contemporary music that departs from traditional norms has any potential at all?

 

[The Liturgist]

I would be sad to see a liturgically traditional Methodism be theologically liberal. Or contrawise a theologically faithful Methodism be liturgically 'contemporvant'.

Well unfortunately that is precisely what exists in my area. Two Methodist churches, one with traditional hymns and an organ and an elder who is into Gnosticism and “has issues” with the Nicene Creed because of the word “homoousios”, and the other with a conservative elder and the music consisting entirely of praise and worship music which doesn’t meet the criteria for praise and worship music on this site (which technically includes hymns, even the Trisagion or Te Deum Laudamus), being dominated by “Christian rock.” The last time I went was in the summer, a few years ago, when they decided to have a “beach boys” themed liturgy, with a surfboard on the altar (I think this was on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul).

 

[hedrick]

The problem with your proposal is that conservative Methodists don’t have a majority on the US, so enforcing the decisions means a split in the US. Also, the conservative group doesn’t seem to want responsibility for the whole US church. They tend to be large, well funded churches, and I don’t think they want all the struggling rural places. They also tend to be more evangelical than Methodist.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well unfortunately that is precisely what exists in my area. Two Methodist churches, one with traditional hymns and an organ and an elder who is into Gnosticism and “has issues” with the Nicene Creed because of the word “homoousios”, and the other with a conservative elder and the music consisting entirely of praise and worship music which doesn’t meet the criteria for praise and worship music on this site (which technically includes hymns, even the Trisagion or Te Deum Laudamus), being dominated by “Christian rock.” The last time I went was in the summer, a few years ago, when they decided to have a “beach boys” themed liturgy, with a surfboard on the altar (I think this was on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul).

I was going to say that with those two options I would learn to love 'Christian Rock'. But then I got to the part about the 'Beach Boys' (I love the Beach Boys) and that stopped me in my tracks. A surfboard on the altar? Ummmm ... no. But then a Gnostic denier of the Nicene Creed? Ummmm ... no. You don't have good choices. Maybe there is a bit of hope that the rock star church could up their game a bit. I know I asked for years for hymns and some Latin (Sanctus et al) and it finally ended up happening. Not just because of me. I asked for a return of the St. Michael prayer, and I guess a lot of others did too because it happened. And now it seems that most decent Catholic parishes have reinstated the St. Michael prayer. The old Mandinka proverb I was taught in The Gambia is 'Slowly slowly you can catch the monkey'. I don't know if I would have that kind of patience again to play the long game. Your situation looks more like the proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

[The Liturgist]

The problem with your proposal is that conservative Methodists don’t have a majority on the US, so enforcing the decisions means a split in the US.

The General Council should simply depose those bishops and clergy guilty of contumacy. If a split occurs it would be illegal. UMC bishops have successfully suppressed at least one conservative parish (St. Paul’s, in Anchorage).

Also, the conservative group doesn’t seem to want responsibility for the whole US church. They tend to be large, well funded churches, and I don’t think they want all the struggling rural places.

On what factual basis are these conclusions founded?

They also tend to be more evangelical than Methodist.

The Methodist church has always been evangelical.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...Also, the conservative group doesn’t seem to want responsibility for the whole US church. They tend to be large, well funded churches, and I don’t think they want all the struggling rural places. They also tend to be more evangelical than Methodist.

I have always thought it is the exact opposite - that the large, well-funded urban churches tend to be more progressive, and the smaller rural churches tend to be conservative.

I live in an extremely conservative state. When the UCC came apart over LGBTQ, a boatload of small rural churches left the denomination, around 30 I believe. It had profound impact on the denomination's charitable organizations in our state with the erosion of their donor base.

 

[hedrick]

I have always thought it is the exact opposite - that the large, well-funded urban churches tend to be more progressive, and the smaller rural churches tend to be conservative.

I live in an extremely conservative state. When the UCC came apart over LGBTQ, a boatload of small rural churches left the denomination, around 30 I believe. It had profound impact on the denomination's charitable organizations in our state with the erosion of their donor base.

I think that was true a few decades ago. Now there are conservative mega churches, and urban churches are struggling. Many conservative churches are already pulling out, into a new organization. It’s pretty clear that those plans have been going on for the last few years. A few are also leaving for a small progressive movement.

 

[hedrick]

On what factual basis are these conclusions founded?

I can't find a single source. I've been following detailed coverage for the last few years, primarily in um-insight, but also from Methodist clergy in CF.

Bishops are elected by the jurisdiction and I believe discipline has to be done at that level. In the US, jurisdictions and annual conferences are becoming less willing to conduct trials on this issue. For example Karen Oliveto is, as far as I can tell from the web site, still a bishop. She is a lesbian, and that fact was known at her ordination. Her jurisdiction is not about to depose her. I don't know of any other jurisdiction that's gone that far, but I think at this point many annual conferences would not be willing to discipline clergy for conducting gay marriages. Effectively, enforcement has been held pending a split. My reading is that it's not likely to resume no matter what in many conferences.

Remember, in recent General Conferences, a majority of US votes have been to allow churches to accept gays, as local option. It’s probably not practical to eject a majority of your leaders as heretics. If you succeed, it's called a split. The UMC is sufficiently centralized to impose legislation on the US, but not to make it work. Current planning faces that reality, with the understanding that an all-out war is in no one's interest, so an amicable parting is better. The current plan leaves the existing organization with the liberals. I believe that plan originated with conservatives.

[Why might conservatives not want the whole existing organization? Suppose you're a group that wants to retain traditional policies on homosexuals. You know that a majority of the US either are willing to accept them or to not enforce the rules against those who accept them, and that UMC youth groups favor accepting gays. If the bulk of the existing church goes with you. In 10 - 20 years your going to find that your new conservative organization is accepting gays. A church that wants to remain conservative needs to make sure its member churches and conferences are truly committed to being conservative. That's the same reason ejecting a few vocal bishops isn't useful. You're just postponing things for a few years. Ejecting half your bishops is called a split.]

It seems very likely that an amicable parting will be passed in August 2022, though Covid or church politics could still prevent that. At this point both sides in the US are in favor. It appears, based on statements from some African leaders in umc-insight, that some Africans don't want a split, but don't want policies to allow everyone to coexist. That combination can't work, but could stick the UMC with a continuing guerilla war.

 

[The Liturgist]

I can't find a single source. I've been following detailed coverage for the last few years, primarily in um-insight, but also from Methodist clergy in CF.

Bishops are elected by the jurisdiction and I believe discipline has to be done at that level. In the US, jurisdictions and annual conferences are becoming less willing to conduct trials on this issue. For example Karen Oliveto is, as far as I can tell from the web site, still a bishop. She is a lesbian, and that fact was known at her ordination. Her jurisdiction is not about to depose her. I don't know of any other jurisdiction that's gone that far, but I think at this point many annual conferences would not be willing to discipline clergy for conducting gay marriages. Effectively, enforcement has been held pending a split. My reading is that it's not likely to resume no matter what in many conferences.

Remember, in recent General Conferences, a majority of US votes have been to allow churches to accept gays, as local option. It’s probably not practical to eject a majority of your leaders as heretics. If you succeed, it's called a split. The UMC is sufficiently centralized to impose legislation on the US, but not to make it work. Current planning faces that reality, with the understanding that an all-out war is in no one's interest, so an amicable parting is better. The current plan leaves the existing organization with the liberals. I believe that plan originated with conservatives.

[Why might conservatives not want the whole existing organization? Suppose you're a group that wants to retain traditional policies on homosexuals. You know that a majority of the US either are willing to accept them or to not enforce the rules against those who accept them, and that UMC youth groups favor accepting gays. If the bulk of the existing church goes with you. In 10 - 20 years your going to find that your new conservative organization is accepting gays. A church that wants to remain conservative needs to make sure its member churches and conferences are truly committed to being conservative. That's the same reason ejecting a few vocal bishops isn't useful. You're just postponing things for a few years. Ejecting half your bishops is called a split.]

It seems very likely that an amicable parting will be passed in August 2022, though Covid or church politics could still prevent that. At this point both sides in the US are in favor. It appears, based on statements from some African leaders in umc-insight, that some Africans don't want a split, but don't want policies to allow everyone to coexist. That combination can't work, but could stick the UMC with a continuing guerilla war.

A schism is inevitable, but I think the traditionalists should retain the name, the real estate and the financial assets, since they have a global majority. The disobedient congregations are mostly well-heeled, and could easily rent space or get it for free from other mainline churches which are Methodist communion partners. It looks like this is what will happen anyway, because people like Rev. Jeremy Smith are advocating for a rejection of the proposed schism.

 

[pdudgeon]

This really upsets me, because I was baptized in a Methodist church, and loved the experience of worshipping in them (in my youth, I had close contact with the UMCs, where we went to church, an SBC school where I went to through second grade, and an LCMS school which I attended for the duration; we occasionally worshipped at those parishes whenever my father’s preferred elders was not present at the Methodist church, or when the elders were translated, as commonly happens due to the connexional nature of the UMC, while he got used to the new
“preacher” as he and many southerners of his generation, memory eternal, called Protestant clergy, and so we also visited a Presbyterian church we liked. I had a beloved relative who lived in another state who attended a UCC church called “First Congregational” and as we fairly frequently traveled to see her, this was my introduction to the UCC and Congregationalism. In my late teenage years, we moved to a location closer to the university where my father taught and unbeknownst to me, he really loved Anglicanism, having studied at an Episcopal-associated university in the US and at Oxford, and he was actually surprisingly moderate and broad church. I really enjoyed that church, but was only there briefly before college, and it was not until 2010 I joined an Episcopal parish, after having left the UCC in the mid 2000s, because I believe we should not presume to put a comma where God intended a period (anyone remember that ad campaign?)

However, I am kind of over the UCC, in that its very sad what happened, but it happened, and scores of conservative parishes disaffiliated and many became non denominational, and increasingly, the Confessional movement in the UCC and the Faithful and Welcoming group of traditional parishes are looking unstable.

However, I have a special connection with Methodism - which is why I am so frustrated about the planned schism when the traditional Methodists have a majority and should simply enforce the Traditional Plan they voted for at the last General Conference.

Equally frustrating however, is the decline of Methodist worship. I am in the land of the Mormons this evening, and was depressed, but not surprised, to see a “traditional” service with a Christian Rock type band, singing inane praise and worship songs, while the excellent 1989 hymnals sit in the pews collecting dust. There is probably a disconnected Hammond organ, or there was at one time, and a piano, but now, traditional apparently means contemporary, and I was afraid to look at the contemporary service.

I want to see the UMC revitalized with traditional morality and traditional worship - the beautiful church I grew up in. Recently I discovered the website of a group of Wesleyan Anglicans centered around a Nazarene parish in Kentucky, and some nearby Nazarene parishes, using the Book of Common Prayer which John Wesley adopted for the Methodist Episcopal Church, which makes me even more sad, because that should be happening in the UMC, which is the successor to the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Evangelical United Brethren (mainly German American and other Continental immigrants who had embraced Wesleyanism either in their homeland or on arrival in the US; the name suggests a connection to the Unity of the Brethren, the Moravians, who John Wesley had a special connection with.

Unfortunately, I lack the power to snap my fingers like Q (the new season of Picard looks worse than the first, if such a thing were possible), and transform the UMC back into the church of strong moral values and beautiful worship I grew up in. I still have my Book of Hymns and Book of Worship from 1965, however, and I am friends with some liturgically and theologically,traditionalist UMC elders. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough; it seems like a greater number of liturgically conservative elders are also theologically liberal, and vice versa. This is one reason why the impending schism upsets me so much: I fear that we will wind up with a liberal church with traditional worship, basically the UCC with episcopal polity, and a conservative church with contemporary worship not much different from the Calvary Chapel, only with bishops.

*in the Central Valley, although not in the parish in Modesto where George Lucas was baptized; I was 5 when Empire Strikes Back came out and 8 when Return of the Jedi came out, and 9 or 10 when Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom* came out, which is the only Indiana Jones film I like, but I really like it, so that would have been awesome)

You might want to look up the FreeWill Methodist Church.
Long ago in the 1960's, when the Methodist Church first decided to become "United", there were some churches who declined to Unite, and thus became "Free Will Methodist".
They are independent, and thus not strictly conectional.
So a pastor can move when he wants to and apply to another FreeWill Methodist Church to receive him anywhere he wants to go.

 

[The Liturgist]

You might want to look up the FreeWill Methodist Church.
Long ago in the 1960's, when the Methodist Church first decided to become "United", there were some churches who declined to Unite, and thus became "Free Will Methodist".
They are independent, and thus not strictly conectional.
So a pastor can move when he wants to and apply to another FreeWill Methodist Church to receive him anywhere he wants to go.

Indeed. By the way, if Pope Benedict XVI resumes the Papacy, I will seek to transfer to the Roman Catholic Church (mainly because I want multi-ritual faculties; being able to be trained in the Traditional Latin Mass, the Byzantine Rite, the Coptic Rite, the two West Syriac Rites (Maronite and Syriac Catholic), and perhaps the East Syriac or Armenian Rite, or the Ambrosian Rite if they would let me celebrate it in America, would be a dream come true. In fact, I would make it my explicit goal, and try to find a supportive bishop, to hold the record in the number of multi-ritual faculties (currently the record is I believe something like 3 or 4, depending on whether we count the Tridentine mass as a separate Rite; bi-ritual priests are not uncommon.

 

[pdudgeon]

Indeed. By the way, if Pope Benedict XVI resumes the Papacy, I will seek to transfer to the Roman Catholic Church (mainly because I want multi-ritual faculties; being able to be trained in the Traditional Latin Mass, the Byzantine Rite, the Coptic Rite, the two West Syriac Rites (Maronite and Syriac Catholic), and perhaps the East Syriac or Armenian Rite, or the Ambrosian Rite if they would let me celebrate it in America, would be a dream come true. In fact, I would make it my explicit goal, and try to find a supportive bishop, to hold the record in the number of multi-ritual faculties (currently the record is I believe something like 3 or 4, depending on whether we count the Tridentine mass as a separate Rite; bi-ritual priests are not uncommon.

I hope that you are able to fulfill your dream.
Thinking about that, I can imagine that Heaven will be so very interesting for you, as you could talk with priests from all those rites and times in one place.

 

[The Liturgist]

I hope that you are able to fulfill your dream.
Thinking about that, I can imagine that Heaven will be so very interesting for you, as you could talk with priests from all those rites and times in one place.

If I get to Heaven, a weak and unprofitable servant and a grotesque sinner, that will be enough.

 

[pdudgeon]

If I get to Heaven, a weak and unprofitable servant and a grotesque sinner, that will be enough.

Please, don't be so hard on yourself!
God gives each of us opportunities to do His work. We never know when those might happen, and most times they are small, insignificant happenings...or so we think!
But every good idea had a beginning, and some of the greatest ones started off very small indeed.
Just remember, Jesus started out as a baby, born in a manger, lived in a small town, started his ministry with 12 followers, and was crucified on a cross. But look what He achieved!

 

[The Liturgist]

Please, don't be so hard on yourself!
God gives each of us opportunities to do His work. We never know when those might happen, and most times they are small, insignificant happenings...or so we think!
But every good idea had a beginning, and some of the greatest ones started off very small indeed.
Just remember, Jesus started out as a baby, born in a manger, lived in a small town, started his ministry with 12 followers, and was crucified on a cross. But look what He achieved!

St. Silouan the Athonite said there are two thoughts we must flee: that we are in any way holy, and that we are beyond the hope or possibility of God’s salvation. To paraphrase Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, I trust that I am being saved, but recognizing that any admission of holiness on my part would be delusional, I concede that I may fall away. This is why I pray the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary, including the prayer for her intercession now and at the time of my death.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The UMC is a sad story, indeed. I well remember when it swallowed up the EUBC (Evangelical United Brethren Church) which, in general, was theologically conservative. In my current city there is a former EUBC church which has a reputation as being a theologically conservative bastion. A friend of mine, who is a persistent church-hopper, visited this church this past Sunday. He chose to attend the "modern" service rather than the "traditional" service. Apart from the trappings of the musical genre, the sermon was very seriously flawed theologically. Personally, I can tolerate a certain level of nonsense in a church service, but I have little to no tolerance for teaching which flies in the face of the clear teaching of scripture.