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My Integrity Challenge

Fervent

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Preponderance of evidence to the contrary can take a hike.

The Flood -- and its aftermath -- was a miracle.

God isn't so sloppy as to leave evidence lying around all over the place.

Take Eve for example.

When God created her, He removed a rib from Adam's side and ...

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

How was Eve to accept the fact that she came from Adam's rib?

Because when God cleans something up, it's like it never happened.

Or do you think God left a scar on purpose?
Again, you seem to have abandoned any pretense of defending your beliefs in a reasonable manner. So it's rather pointless to discuss such things with you because no matter what is said to you, when it's clear you have no defense you'll simply go "Well, faith." So why bother participating in the discussion at all?
 
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AV1611VET

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Again, you seem to have abandoned any pretense of defending your beliefs in a reasonable manner. So it's rather pointless to discuss such things with you because no matter what is said to you, when it's clear you have no defense you'll simply go "Well, faith." So why bother participating in the discussion at all?

Then let's set faith aside.

Show me the evidence of a global flood.

Let's see it.
 
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AV1611VET

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:scratch:

Only considering evidence that confirms your belief isn't "setting faith aside."

What evidence?

You don't have any evidence that "confirms my belief."

I believe you said that yourself.
 
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dlamberth

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Preponderance of evidence to the contrary can take a hike.

The Flood -- and its aftermath -- was a miracle.

God isn't so sloppy as to leave evidence lying around all over the place.

Take Eve for example.

When God created her, He removed a rib from Adam's side and ...

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

How was Eve to accept the fact that she came from Adam's rib?

Because when God cleans something up, it's like it never happened.

Or do you think God left a scar on purpose?
When it comes to a Global Noah's flood and God cleaning up His mess afterwards, I think what's really happening here is that an imaginary story line is made up to fruitlessly explain why there is absolutely no evidence of said flood, and calling that "faith" in God.

There was no Adam and No Eve and no scar to clean up.
 
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Fervent

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What evidence?

You don't have any evidence that "confirms my belief."

I believe you said that yourself.
Yeah, but there's plenty of evidence that suggests your belief is malarky. But why bother dealing with evidence when you can just arbitrarily reject anything and throw up a wall of invincible willful ignorance?
 
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Fervent

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There was no Adam and No Eve and no scar to clean up.
A quick disagreement, it's quite possible that Adam and Eve were real historical individuals but that they were inserted into cultural origin myths to connect a hereditary tribe with the primordial past. So while it's fair to say that the story we find Adam and Eve in is likely not true, we can't simply assert that they are entirely fictional creations.
 
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AV1611VET

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When it comes to a Global Noah's flood and God cleaning up His mess afterwards, I think what's really happening here is that an imaginary story line is made up to fruitlessly explain why there is absolutely no evidence of said flood,

If you have a better explanation than God cleaning up the mess, I'm all ears.

... and calling that "faith" in God.

Let's hear it then.

Take me out of the realm of faith -- (if faith bothers you that much) -- and put me into the realm of sight.

I'll wait.

There was no Adam and No Eve and no scar to clean up.

LOL
 
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AV1611VET

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Yeah, but there's plenty of evidence that suggests your belief is malarky.

Only on paper.

But why bother dealing with evidence when you can just arbitrarily reject anything and throw up a wall of invincible willful ignorance?

Here's my "invincible willful wall:"

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Find something wrong with it.
 
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Fervent

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Only on paper.



Here's my "invincible willful wall:"

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Find something wrong with it.
Considering your unique understanding of what constitutes "Bible," your willingness to completely ignore anything approaching reason is quite obvious. Though you make a mockery of the word "faith" in doing so.
 
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dlamberth

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If you have a better explanation than God cleaning up the mess, I'm all ears.
There was no Global Flood to clean up after.
Let's hear it then.

Take me out of the realm of faith -- (if faith bothers you that much) -- and put me into the realm of sight.

I'll wait.



LOL
I have no issues with faith, but only when directed directly towards opening one's heart to God.
 
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dlamberth

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A quick disagreement, it's quite possible that Adam and Eve were real historical individuals but that they were inserted into cultural origin myths to connect a hereditary tribe with the primordial past. So while it's fair to say that the story we find Adam and Eve in is likely not true, we can't simply assert that they are entirely fictional creations.
All religions need a creation story. That's what set the ground work for the rest that follows. Adam and Eve are a part of the creation story of an ancient middle-eastern tribe of desert dwellers. And like many mythological stories, a person can find a lot of spiritual lessons in the ancient Biblical creation stores. But I don't think it's possible at all that a Biblical Adam and Eve existed. Especially with evolution as a background.
 
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AV1611VET

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Considering your unique understanding of what constitutes "Bible," your willingness to completely ignore anything approaching reason is quite obvious. Though you make a mockery of the word "faith" in doing so.

Really?

Explain to me then how the earth was uninhabitable one day then, seven days later, a dove comes back with an olive leaf in its mouth.

If God didn't clean up that mess, who did?
 
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Fervent

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All religions need a creation story. That's what set the ground work for the rest that follows. Adam and Eve are a part of the creation story of an ancient middle-eastern tribe of desert dwellers. And like many mythological stories, a person can find a lot of spiritual lessons in the ancient Biblical creation stores. But I don't think it's possible at all that a Biblical Adam and Eve existed. Especially with evolution as a background.
I think you're missing what I've actually said, cause I'm not suggesting that there was a first man and woman in the way that the Genesis narrative lays out. But the question of the truth of historical events and the existence of historical persons are two separate questions. There appears to be a decent amount of textual evidence to suggest that there was an ancient genre of literature where cultural myths were mixed with actual historical people to further some philosophical or theological point. For example, the events depicted in The Iliad are likely extremely exagerated and Roman myths were mixed in the whole story but a real conflict lying at the heart of the story is fairly probable. In the same way, the geneologies suggest that the people mentioned are real historical figures but the myths involved are clearly variations on regional creation stories that were already in existence. So the existence of Adam and Eve as real persons is entirely consistent with evolution, just not as the progenitors of the whole human species.
 
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Fervent

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Really?

Explain to me then how the earth was inhabitable one day then, seven days later, a dove comes back with an olive leaf in its mouth.

If God didn't clean up that mess, who did?
You've established that you're willing to abandon all pretense of rationality, so that really sounds like a complete waste of time.
 
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AV1611VET

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There was no Global Flood to clean up after.

Yes, I'm familiar with your beliefs now.

Since there were no Adam and Eve, there was no Noah.

Got it.

And I'm the one mocking faith?

I have no issues with faith, but only when directed directly towards opening one's heart to God.

What should faith open up, if not our hearts?
 
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AV1611VET

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Adam and Eve are a part of the creation story of an ancient middle-eastern tribe of desert dwellers.

How did they get into the desert in the first place?

Don't academians here claim there is no evidence whatsoever the Jews lived there?
 
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AV1611VET

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You've established that you're willing to abandon all pretense of rationality, so that really sounds like a complete waste of time.

Sorry -- I meant "uninhabitable."

And rationality can take a hike, if said rationality contradicts the Bible.
 
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Fervent

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Sorry -- I meant "uninhabitable."
Doesn't really matter what you meant.
And rationality can take a hike, if said rationality contradicts the Bible.
Yes, you've made it quite obvious that you have no interest in looking for what's true if it means you have to re-consider what you think the Bible says. And by Bible you mean the 1611 KJV, because prior to King Jimmy wanting a translation to build a claim of divine rule off of nobody had the Bible.
 
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Yttrium

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Since one poster here likes to bring up integrity a lot, I thought I would issue a challenge based on it.

Here's my challenge:

If you were offered one million dollars to find evidence of Noah's flood, would you:

A) Take it and go look somewhere?

B) Decline it on the basis that you are convinced scientifically that Noah's flood didn't occur?
Since I'm not convinced of anything, I'd honestly start up a search for evidence of Noah's flood. I'd welcome the educational opportunity, since I'd have to learn a lot about geology.
 
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