My Gospel by Paul

[KingdomLeast]

Acts 1: 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Showing the difference and Jesus attached “water” to John old testamebt baptism which would fall under the category of the many “diverse washings” (baptismos in Greek, of the old covenant that were imposed upon them until the time of reformation and the old covenant was passing away ready to vanish. And the shadows and types gave place to the reality.

Hebrews 9: 9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

And many Jewish believers in Jesus were still struggling under the law for a long time as we see all through Acts. So Water baptism in the physical washing was also a part of that.

HUH?

 

[Clare73]

It's not a rule; it's a fact.

Yes, he said, "I will build my church". But nowhere did he say that that church would be split into hundreds of denominations, each with their own rules - and often conflicting with each other.

Nor nowhere did he say that to the degree they are of saving faith in Jesus Christ, they are not the same assembly.
Church (ek-klesia) means "called-out assembly."

All you have true faith in Jesus Christ are the one assembly called-out of the world.

 

[KingdomLeast]

In actual fact, the Jews did practice baptism. If baptism wasn't part of Jewish religious culture John would not have been accepted the way he was. He was accepted by the Jews as a true prophet, therefore baptism was accepted also as part of Jewish religious observance.

Actually what the Jews practiced was ritual cleansing. I found this on another site.

Depending on which Reformer you agree with, most Christians view baptism either as the means of salvation and entry into the church or as a sign of Christ's redemptive work in the converted. In both cases, the new believer is considered wholly regenerated, and baptism seals this radical change.

But in first-century Judaism, baptism had a different meaning. In the book of Leviticus, God instructs Jews to cleanse themselves from ritual impurities, contracted through such acts as touching a corpse or a leper. Washing primarily fulfilled the legal requirements of ritual purity so that Jews could sacrifice at the Temple. Later, as "God-fearers" or "righteous" Gentiles expressed their desire to convert to Judaism, priests broadened the rite's meaning, and along with circumcision, performed baptism as a sign of the covenant given to Abraham.

While Christians may relate to baptism as a sign of covenant and purity before God, these still don't bridge the gap to John the Baptist's "baptism of repentance"-or to the messianic thrust of his message. While there's still room for speculation, one possible bridge is the community at Qumran-the ascetic desert sect best known for creating the Dead Sea scrolls. Like orthodox Jews, the Qumran sectarians baptized for reasons of ritual purity. But their Manual of Discipline, or the community rule, also stated that a person could not become clean if he failed to obey God's commandments. "For it is through the spirit of God's true counsel concerning the ways of man that all his sins be expiated," observes the Manual, "and when his flesh is sprinkled with purifying water, it shall be made clean by the humble submission of his soul to all the precepts of God."

Members of the Qumran community also had a clear apocalyptic vision of the future. Having endured centuries of foreign rule, these Jews longed for freedom from oppression, and their writings pine for the arrival of Israel's messiah. The Manual requires that those wishing to enter Qumran "shall go into the wilderness to prepare there the way of Him; as it is written, Prepare in the wilderness the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a path for our God." John the Baptist quoted the same passage from Isaiah in his call to baptism in the Jordan River.

Some scholars think John the Baptist may have been a member of the Qumran sect. His ministry did center in the same area. But even if he wasn't, John's message was compelling to those familiar with the desert ascetics: "I baptize you with water of repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandal I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!

I teach a class at the local Prison and hope to illustrate this concept tomorrow for the men.

 

[JulieB67]

Christ was talking to a church as a whole, not the individuals in it.

He was talking to the church as a whole and also individuals within the churches.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

His instructions were directed to the leadership of the church

He was talking to any individuals within the church that had fallen, fallen into sin, etc. He also singles out those that had not fallen

Revelation 3:4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sar'-dis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."

and therefore not genuinely converted to Christ.

You can't fall unless you were at first converted.

Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."


Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

 

[BNR32FAN]

Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!

The only thing Constantine did was end the persecution of Christians by making Christianity legal and brought all the bishops together so that they could to end the debate between Trinitarianism and Arianism. Constantine didn’t have any authority in the church or over the church. He was a secular ruler not a Patriarch or a Pope or anything of any significance in the church as far as authority.

 

[Rose_bud]

Paul was referring to the same gospel. He did not bring a different gospel, had he done so he would of been a false teacher whom he severely chastised in his letters.

In Galatians 1:8-9. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!

Paul preached the same gospel he received. If he didn't he would be a hypocrite and contradict his own words.

His teachings are built on that of Jesus and the apostles. He did not build a separate building, it was the same foundation.

His audience differred but the message remained the same.

He announced that the new King - Jesus had arrived and welcomed all into his Kingdom. Entry required belief that Jesus is the Son of God, the one the Scriptures - Law and Prophets testified too. He shared how to accept and live in the present reality and how to hope and expect the future reality of this kingdom.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!

Paul addressed each one of his epistles and they were specifically addressed to the congregation of each church that he was writing to at that particular time with the exception of the two epistles to Timothy. Not a single one of his epistles are actually addressed to us. You should go back and read the first 5 verses of each of his epistles, they will tell you exactly who they were addressed to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point of the OP is that there is a gospel for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. There is only 1 gospel to the gentiles, the one taught by Paul as it was given to him by Jesus Christ. It is a different Gospel (not radically different but nevertheless different) to that taught by Jesus to the Jews in the 4 gospels and taught by the other apostles, who were the apostles to the Jews.
Watch the video, its worth a watch

Paul preached to Jews and the rest of the apostles preached to Gentiles. Peter preached to Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 and read Romans 2 where Paul preached to the Jews. All of the apostles preached the same gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. Philip preached the gospel to the Ethiopian who was a Gentile. Paul and all of the apostles preached to everyone they came to, they didn’t only preach to certain groups and they didn’t preach different gospels to each group. In the book of Romans Paul addresses both Jews and Gentiles but he’s not preaching two different gospels he’s preaching the same gospel to both groups.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Incorrect as the Catholic Church was made by Jesus Christ Himself when he told Peter that he was the rock and on that rock the church would be built.

Personally I don’t believe that’s when the church began, I think an argument could be made that the first Christian was John the Baptist since he was the first follower of Christ which is what the word Christian actually means. By the time Matthew 16:18 took place Jesus already had many followers. Luke 10:1 mentions 70 disciples of Jesus apart from the 12 which technically was only 11 since Judas was never actually a believer. So I wouldn’t say that Matthew 16:18 is when the church began it’s just when Jesus told Peter that he would be a key figure in the church, it doesn’t mean that’s when the church began.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You've missed the point entirely

If Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom was only intended for the Jews why did Jesus say that it must be preached to the whole world, to all nations if it was only intended for one nation? Every other nation other than Israel is a Gentile nation.

“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to this the gospel of the kingdom was not exclusively intended for the Jews.

 

[Strong in Him]

The fact that you didn't tell me what verse you were referring to tells me the same. So why not tell me what verse you had in mind to prove your view and we can continue this discussion.

I did tell you.

Tell me, where in the Scriptures does it say to be baptized in the name of the Trinity?

Matthew 28:19.

 

[Strong in Him]

Nor nowhere did he say that to the degree they are of saving faith in Jesus Christ, they are not the same assembly.
Church (ek-klesia) means "called-out assembly."

All you have true faith in Jesus Christ are the one assembly called-out of the world.

I know.
THE church is all believers. ALL true believers - of any denomination and none - are Christ's church. Go to a festival like Greenbelt, Spring Harvest, New Wine and there are Christians of all denominations worshipping together, sharing, teaching, praying and so on. That is how it should be.

It's those in charge who say, "you can't do that in this denomination", "we believe this but they don't" etc.
I am a Methodist preacher. If a church is Methodist + another denomination (as ours is) I can preach there regularly. When I went to an Anglican church the reaction was, "if you want to preach here and be an Anglican preacher, it's 3 years training). My status and previous training were not recognised.
It's like that for Ministers too. They would not be allowed to lead a communion service - something to do with Apostolic succession and not having authority.
This wasn't the church that Jesus came to build.

 

[Guojing]

If Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom was only intended for the Jews why did Jesus say that it must be preached to the whole world, to all nations if it was only intended for one nation? Every other nation other than Israel is a Gentile nation.

“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to this the gospel of the kingdom was not exclusively intended for the Jews.

That was because under the prophetic program, gentiles are to be saved thru the rise of Israel, see Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 60:1-3.

That is how you reconcile Matthew 10:5 to Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:18-20, and understand why Peter was correct in being hesitant to go to Cornelius's house at Acts 10.

 

[Clare73]

I know.
THE church is all believers. ALL true believers - of any denomination and none - are Christ's church. Go to a festival like Greenbelt, Spring Harvest, New Wine and there are Christians of all denominations worshipping together, sharing, teaching, praying and so on. That is how it should be.
It's those in charge who say, "you can't do that in this denomination", "we believe this but they don't" etc.
I am a Methodist preacher. If a church is Methodist + another denomination (as ours is) I can preach there regularly.

When I went to an Anglican church the reaction was, "if you want to preach here and be an Anglican preacher, it's 3 years training). My status and previous training were not recognised.
It's like that for Ministers too. They would not be allowed to lead a communion service - something to do with Apostolic succession and not having authority.
This wasn't the church that Jesus came to build.

The church "Jesus came to build" has specific apostolic regulations authoritative to his church; e.g., 1 Tim 2:11-14, 3:1-13, 4:1-14,
5:1-6:10, if it is to be Jesus' true NT church.
It is the responsibility of those assemblies to enforce those apostolic regulations.

 

[Strong in Him]

The church "Jesus came to build" has specific apostolic regulations authoritative to his church; e.g., 1 Tim 2:11-14, 3:1-13, 4:1-14,

1. Those are not Apostolic regulations. Neither Peter, John, James nor Jesus taught them.
2. There have been many debates on these forums about the meaning of 1 Tim 2:11-14; they are not clear.
3. Are you saying that salvation + being God's child = Jesus + church regulations?
4. The examples I gave do not fit any of those verses.

 

[Clare73]

1. Those are not Apostolic regulations. Neither Peter, John, James nor Jesus taught them.

If you do not believe the word of God that Paul was
called to be an apostle (Ro 1:1, 2 Co 12:7-9)
by the will of God (1Co 1:1, 2 Co 1:1, Eph 1:1, Col 1:1, 2 Tim 1:1)
and Jesus Christ (1 Tim 1:1),
being sent by both (Gal 1:1, 1 Tim 1:1),
that unbelief leaves us no basis for discussion.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you do not believe the word of God that Paul was
called to be an apostle

Of course I believe that Paul was an Apostle.
I'm saying that none of the other Apostles taught those things. Nor, according to Scripture, did they have a Council/meeting to decide, for example, the place of women in church.

Was Paul's teaching that widows under the age of 60 were idle busybodies and therefore not deserving of financial assistance, also Apostolic teaching? Or that women shouldn't braid their hair or wear gold in church; is that an Apostolic teaching?

 

[Clare73]

Of course I believe that Paul was an Apostle.

Then of what relevance is it that none of the other apostles wrote to the Gentile churches presenting the regulations Paul presented to them?
All teaching of Christ's apostles, including Paul, is apostolic teaching.

I'm saying that none of the other Apostles taught those things.

And? . . .I'm assuming you know the NT Scriptures.

So the apostles James', John's or Peter's letters to the churches are supposed to be identical to the apostle Paul's letters to the churches?

Who made that rule?

Paul's apostolic teaching is either the word of God authoritative to the whole church, or it is not.
One either believes Paul's teaching is the word of God authoritative to the church (post #537),
or one sets himself above Christ's apostle Paul to be judge of his teaching.

Nor, according to Scripture, did they have a Council/meeting to decide for example, the place of women in church.

Yeah. . .isn't there something about a council meeting where they were all caught up to the third heaven and heard things they were not allowed to repeat?

Wasn't that the same Council/meeting where they decided to place Paul's letters on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT (2 Pe 3:16)?

Was Paul's teaching that widows under the age of 60 were idle busybodies and therefore not deserving of financial assistance, also Apostolic teaching? Or that women shouldn't braid their hair or wear gold in church; is that an Apostolic teaching?

All letters written to the churches by the apostles of Jesus Christ (e.g., Peter, John, Paul) are by definition Apostolic teaching.

 

[Strong in Him]

Then of what relevance is it that none of the other apostles wrote to the Gentile churches presenting the regulations Paul presented to them?
All teaching of Christ's apostles, including Paul, is apostolic teaching.

For the people he was writing to, maybe; not for us.

Some of Paul's churches were writing to him with specific questions, or there were things going on in that church that Paul needed to address.
It is not Apostolic teaching, for example, that women shouldn't wear gold. And it's certainly not upheld today - or women wouldn't have gold wedding rings in church. It is not Apostolic teaching that women cannot braid their hair, or have to cover their heads.
Then of what relevance is it that none of the other apostles wrote to the Gentile churches presenting the regulations Paul presented to them?

So the apostles James', John's or Peter's letters to the churches are supposed to be identical to the apostle Paul's letters to the churches?

Did I say that?
Of course they're not. But if there were a specific doctrine, especially one of importance, you'd expect all the Apostles to teach it to all their churches. And not just have it "taught" by one person in a personal letter - which was one of the last that he ever wrote.

Paul's apostolic teaching is either the word of God authoritative to the whole church, or it is not.

Teaching, yes.
Personal greetings, advice or answering specific problems in certain churches, no.

For example, one of the verses you quoted appears to suggest that Paul had a problem with women speaking in church.
If by that he meant that women should learn in silence and not interrupt, fair enough; that goes for men too.
If you interpret that to mean that no woman should speak in a service - as some do - then you have to explain why Paul taught that women may pray and prophesy. Or why Paul had several, valued female co-workers. Or why he trusted Phoebe to take, and read, his letter to the church at Rome. Or why he called Junias "outstanding among the apostles." If women can't teach, why did Paul not say that the gifts of the Spirit, which include Pastors and teachers, should only be men?

Either it was "Apostolic teaching" that women can't speak/teach in church, or it is Apostolic teaching that the gifts of the Spirit - teaching, evangelism, prophecy are available to all and that God can raise up whoever he wants to serve him in whatever way he chooses - just as he raised Deborah up to be judge over all Israel.

Yeah. . .isn't there something about a council meeting where they were all caught up to the third heaven and heard things they were not allowed to repeat?

No, Paul says "a man", 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 - largely thought to be referring to himself.

Wasn't that the same Council/meeting where they decided to place Paul's letters on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT (2 Pe 3:16)?

It wasn't a council meeting, but a personal experience.

All letters written to the churches by the apostles of Jesus Christ (e.g., Peter, John, Paul) are by definition Apostolic teaching.

I'm sure that when Paul wrote to people to say they should treat their slaves well, those words were sincere; even inspired by God.
We don't have slaves today - and I think the church played a part in getting slavery abolished. So how do we apply that "apostolic teaching", not to mention all the other examples I have given, today?

And are you really saying that if there was a young widow who had lost her husband in war and who came to your church for help, you would all turn her away because Paul says that widows under 60 deserve no help and are gossiping busybodies?