My Gospel by Paul

[Strong in Him]

Tell me, where in the Scriptures does it say to be baptized in the name of the Trinity?

Matthew 28:19.

 

[Strong in Him]

If they add water baptism to the saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-5, then they preach another gospel.

Usually those who deny 1 Cor 15:1-4 do so because they want to add all sorts of rules and laws and many other works to the gospel. In my experience.

I'm not denying 1 Cor 15:1-4, I'm just saying it doesn't tell us everything - like being born again or believing in the Holy Spirit, for example.

 

[Strong in Him]

You quoted,

"To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20;"

Here we see that this is adding works to the gospel for salvation and water baptism, or so it seems.

You're missing my point - either deliberately, or otherwise.
I asked if cults like JWs, who believe in Jesus and the resurrection as described in 1 Cor 15:1-4 are saved?
If they are saved - because, despite their other beliefs, they believe Jesus died for sin and rose again - that would suggest that these verses in 1 Cor 15 describe exactly, and only, what is needed for salvation.
If they are not saved - because their other beliefs, like Jesus not being God, are false - that would suggest that these verses are only part of the Gospel.
Which is what I have been saying all along.

 

[Guojing]

You're missing my point - either deliberately, or otherwise.
I asked if cults like JWs, who believe in Jesus and the resurrection as described in 1 Cor 15:1-4 are saved?
If they are saved - because, despite their other beliefs, they believe Jesus died for sin and rose again - that would suggest that these verses in 1 Cor 15 describe exactly, and only, what is needed for salvation.
If they are not saved - because their other beliefs, like Jesus not being God, are false - that would suggest that these verses are only part of the Gospel.
Which is what I have been saying all along.

Well, think of what happened in Egypt during the early part of Exodus.

I can imagine two types of Jews on the Passover night in Egypt.

Some put their trust in the lamb blood, and just relax and enjoy the night, confident that it is sufficient.

Other Jews are more paranoid and try to help the blood with their works, praying fasting singing non stop to God.

In the end both houses first born are still saved because the blood at their doorpost is sufficient.

That is how I view this never ending argument about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, think of what happened in Egypt during the early part of Exodus.

I can imagine two types of Jews on the Passover night in Egypt.

Some put their trust in the lamb blood, and just relax and enjoy the night, confident that it is sufficient.

Other Jews are more paranoid and try to help the blood with their works, praying fasting singing non stop to God.

In the end both houses first born are still saved because the blood at their doorpost is sufficient.

That is how I view this never ending argument about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

I'm not talking about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

I'm talking about 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and saying that those verses do not contain ALL the Gospel - everything needed for salvation - because they don't mention the Holy Spirit. That is my only point.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not talking about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

I'm talking about 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and saying that those verses do not contain ALL the Gospel - everything needed for salvation - because they don't mention the Holy Spirit. That is my only point.

My point is the same.

If anyone believed the gospel found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and they want to play safe by adding various works into it, they will be saved like the rest.

But their works will be burned up, aka 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

[Strong in Him]

My point is the same.

If anyone believed the gospel found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and they want to play safe by adding various works into it, they will be saved like the rest.

But their works will be burned up, aka 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

I'm not talking about works.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not the entire Gospel.

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Yes. But who is Christ; good man, or God? How did he die "for our sins"? These verses don't say.
They don't say that Christ was born of a virgin - and if he hadn't been, then Joseph would have been his father and his whole ministry would have been a lie.
They don't say anything about the Holy Spirit - and without the Spirit we cannot be born again.
They don't mention the ascension - and if Jesus didn't ascend then he is still on earth somewhere as a human.

If 1 Cor 15 contained the entire Gospel then no one would know about the Holy Spirit. Or about the things that Paul also wrote about, like God's grace, being justified by faith and being reconciled to God.

 

[Guojing]

If 1 Cor 15 contained the entire Gospel then no one would know about the Holy Spirit.

Your conclusion don't follow from the premise.

When you are saved, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

 

[Strong in Him]

Your conclusion don't follow from the premise.

When you are saved, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Yes - and you had to look in Ephesians to find that verse; it is not mentioned at all in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
That's my point.

 

[Guojing]

Yes - and you had to look in Ephesians to find that verse; it is not mentioned at all in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
That's my point.

That is a silly conclusion.

Even if one never reads Ephesians, he is still sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, the moment he believe in the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is a silly conclusion.

No, it's obvious.
The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:14 - that was my point from the beginning.
For any teaching/info on the Holy Spirit you have to look at other passages - John 3:3, Romans 8, Ephesians 1:3.

The Holy Spirit is part of, and involved in, the Gospel, as without him, a person cannot be born again. It is not 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 which teaches this. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contain the whole Gospel, or everything about the Gospel.
I don't know how much more clearly I can say it.

 

[FredVB]

When you are a real believer, and in Christ, you are sealed. You still have to look to really see evidence that you are a believer. Doubtless there are many who believe they are believers

 

[Sorn]

No, it's obvious.
The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:14 - that was my point from the beginning.
For any teaching/info on the Holy Spirit you have to look at other passages - John 3:3, Romans 8, Ephesians 1:3.

The Holy Spirit is part of, and involved in, the Gospel, as without him, a person cannot be born again. It is not 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 which teaches this. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contain the whole Gospel, or everything about the Gospel.
I don't know how much more clearly I can say it.

But what is the Gospel?? Is it
a) what you need to do to be saved
OR is it
b) what you need to do to be saved + what then happens so God has a 'record' that says you are saved for when the time comes where it makes a difference

 

[Strong in Him]

But what is the Gospel?? Is it
a) what you need to do to be saved
OR is it
b) what you need to do to be saved + what then happens so God has a 'record' that says you are saved for when the time comes where it makes a difference

Neither.

The Good News is that though, through Adam, we were spiritually dead and could do nothing to save ourselves, God, in his mercy, sent Jesus to die for us. If we believe in, and receive, Jesus we have eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, John 10:10, John 17:3, 1 John 5:12. And that means not just accepting him as a historical figure and a good teacher but believing in the claims he made and words he spoke. It is by God's grace that we are saved, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8.
It is the Holy Spirit who draws people to Jesus, whether they recognise it or not, and through the Spirit that we are born again, John 3:3.
It is also the Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:17. And he is a deposit guaranteeing that we have an inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14.
God does not have a "record" of our salvation - he, himself, lives in us through his Spirit, assuring us that this is so.

 

[Sorn]

Neither.

The Good News is that though, through Adam, we were spiritually dead and could do nothing to save ourselves, God, in his mercy, sent Jesus to die for us. If we believe in, and receive, Jesus we have eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, John 10:10, John 17:3, 1 John 5:12. And that means not just accepting him as a historical figure and a good teacher but believing in the claims he made and words he spoke. It is by God's grace that we are saved, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8.
It is the Holy Spirit who draws people to Jesus, whether they recognise it or not, and through the Spirit that we are born again, John 3:3.
It is also the Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:17. And he is a deposit guaranteeing that we have an inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14.
God does not have a "record" of our salvation - he, himself, lives in us through his Spirit, assuring us that this is so.

Take a chill pill please!
So you go for option B.

 

[Strong in Him]

Take a chill pill please!
So you go for option B.

I don't need to chill - unless you think I'm stressed by stating the Gospel?

And I don't go for option 2; I said "neither".

 

[Sorn]

I don't need to chill - unless you think I'm stressed by stating the Gospel?

And I don't go for option 2; I said "neither".

Buy you did go for option 2. You certainly didn't go for option 1, you included lots of stuff that God then does so clearly in option 2 camp.
When you understand that and accept it you will understand what the argument is this thread has been all about for the last few days.

 

[Strong in Him]

Buy you did go for option 2. You certainly didn't go for option 1, you included lots of stuff that God then does so clearly in option 2 camp.
When you understand that and accept it you will understand what the argument is this thread has been all about for the last few days.

No, option 2 was:

b) what you need to do to be saved + what then happens so God has a 'record' that says you are saved for when the time comes where it makes a difference

All anyone needs to "do" to be saved is to believe in, and accept, Jesus - which is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
And Scripture does not say that God has, or needs to have, a "record" which says someone is saved. Why; in case he forgets or something?
The Holy Spirit is a seal, and a deposit, guaranteeing our inheritance - and it is he who assures us that we are children of God.

In the book of Acts, the Apostles knew that God had saved Gentiles too because he had poured out his Spirit upon them.

 

[Sorn]

No, option 2 was:

All anyone needs to "do" to be saved is to believe in, and accept, Jesus - which is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
And Scripture does not say that God has, or needs to have, a "record" which says someone is saved. Why; in case he forgets or something?
The Holy Spirit is a seal, and a deposit, guaranteeing our inheritance - and it is he who assures us that we are children of God.

In the book of Acts, the Apostles knew that God had saved Gentiles too because he had poured out his Spirit upon them.

right, option B, which requires God to do stuff as well.

 

[Strong in Him]

right, option B, which requires God to do stuff as well.

No one requires God to do anything - he chooses to, in his mercy and grace. And he does not make a record of our salvation for "when the time comes".