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No. You're not reading my posts properly.
The work that God requires is to believe in Jesus - the One sent by God, John 6:29. Believing in and accepting Jesus is doing God's work and his will, John 6:40.
Jesus told us to put his words into practice and when we DO things, like Abraham being willing to offer his son, we show our faith.
In some circumstances - those that I mentioned - people put their faith in Jesus. They may be unable to DO anything, but they have still believed in Jesus; the One that God sent.
true, though the pharisees were likely thinking what actions were needed, things that they could do, that others can see etc., whereas Jesus replied in essence that the most important thing is first & foremost to believe in the one God sent, so to recognize & believe in Him.
So it could be that what Jesus was referring to was that they should study and understand their scripture & its prophecies so that they could recognize the messiah when he came and then believe in him. That's how they would believe in Him.
So the most important work was to know their their scripture as it pointed to Him. Definitely room for discussion but I can see why you might say faith = works = faith from that even though later Paul clearly distinguishes faith from works.
I don't disagree with what you are saying but do note the following:First off: God looks at the heart of a person to determine saved or not saved, which I cannot do. What they do and say does reflect what is on their heart, so what are they saying or doing?
If a believer has a good opportunity to be adult believer water baptized, why would they not cease that opportunity? It benefits them by physically going through what Christ went through with a death, burial and resurrection. It is an aid God created for us, to help us remember, an easy witness to others which can help them, it provides a starting point and a time you might experience the Spirit coming into you. It is for our easy participation in our “education” and not just listening to some lecture or even saying some words, but physical involvement.
In post #279 I said that works are not required to show faith, otherwise people on their deathbeds etc could not be saved.So if you believe in that, then in some circumstances, faith can be shown without works.
So in those some circumstances, faith is separable from works.
I am just understanding your words literally, would you agree?
The author Dr. Paul Philter gives a lot of one verse answers, when a study is needed to interpret the verses in the context of the verses. Starting with 1 Cor. 1:1-4 taking just this part: Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,As to the 2 gospels, I posted a video in Post #5 of this thread which explains the viewpoint, i recommend you watch it as it will save both you and me time. Would take me much longer to type out its salient points and you can watch it easily. If you are prepared to read my post then watch the video as i present it in place of my post.
I studied with a former very devout Catholic, baptized as a baby. After he went over every verse on baptism himself, without much help from me, he called me late on a Thurs. night saying he wanted to be baptized, I tried talking him out of it, since it was late, but he said he had already set it up for Sunday night at a little local church (I was thinking I was going to have to do it in my friend’s pool on a cold night), so I was happy to do that. When we got their Sunday night there were a faithful few members there for Sunday night serves and over 50 visitors my Catholic friend had invited, to his baptism.I don't disagree with what you are saying but do note the following:
Its really only a witness if done in public. If done in a church then the witnessing part is minor as its done amongst other Christians or people accepting of Christianity, in other words the 'witness' part really only takes its most effect when done in a public place so people may say 'whats going on there'?? or 'whats this about'?? etc & then learn about the gospel etc.
As to physical involvement, living as a Christian involves plenty of physical involvement, everything from going to & participating in church services, changing some aspects & behaviors in one's life & of course doing outreach & ministry etc. People do these to lesser or greater extents but they are all physical involvements in Christian life.
Also, if its to help us then really there should be no reason why people can't get baptized multiple times if it helps them get the gist of whats happened & plays an educational role. Church culture does not do this because of the 'ceremonial / celebratory' aspect of it, so you do it once.
Also the overhead of organizing everyone to get baptized every year, but it could be done. When i am learning something, even something that involves physical involvement, it's usually done or practiced multiple times in order to really learn it.
People don't attend a Graduation Ceremony every year because its a one off event - ie its more ceremonial / celebratory in its nature then educational. Same with baptism imo.
James 2:17
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:20
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
That is counter to James 2:18,So if you understand James literally in that passage, would you also say that "works are not required to show faith"?
Thats great to hear about your friend, some people have lavish weddings, others get married at a registry office, both are perfectly valid.I studied with a former very devout Catholic, baptized as a baby. After he went over every verse on baptism himself, without much help from me, he called me late on a Thurs. night saying he wanted to be baptized, I tried talking him out of it, since it was late, but he said he had already set it up for Sunday night at a little local church (I was thinking I was going to have to do it in my friend’s pool on a cold night), so I was happy to do that. When we got their Sunday night there were a faithful few members there for Sunday night serves and over 50 visitors my Catholic friend had invited, to his baptism.
The next Tues. his living room was full of people for our one-on-one Bible study.
I remember his baptism, better than I remember my own.
We need the one time to know when we got started, but those we witness help remind us of when we started out.
Re the author of the videos, as you probably noticed, he has a phd in theology so he has done considerable study. Of course just because he has a phd does not mean he is correct etc, I have a friend who also has a phd in theology (bible studies) but is a solid atheist.The author Dr. Paul Philter gives a lot of one verse answers, when a study is needed to interpret the verses in the context of the verses. Starting with 1 Cor. 1:1-4 taking just this part: Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Paul is talking to all the Brothers and sisters in Corinth, which we know had some Baptized Jewish Christians:
Acts 18: 7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.
But let us not just stop there:
In 1 Cor. 15 Paul goes on to talk about: 9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle…10…. I worked harder than all of them… 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
1 Cor. 15 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
I would have to go through every verse Paul used in a similar way, which takes more time than I have, but do you have a favorite Paul “Gospel” verse?
Massages do not “save” people, but Deity’s Grace/mercy/Love saves people (the Gospel) and that has always been the case.
How does 2 Tim 2:15 show there is “more than one message in the Bible?Re the author of the videos, as you probably noticed, he has a phd in theology so he has done considerable study. Of course just because he has a phd does not mean he is correct etc, I have a friend who also has a phd in theology (bible studies) but is a solid atheist.
Anyway i've been watching his videos and his approach, there are others that espouse it too, seems coherent so far. It generally fits more of scripture than most approaches i've seen. I'm still studying the approach & will be for some time and will also look at the -ve case in due course but generally I like what i see so far. I don't expect it to be perfect but as i said it fits better the whole of scripture than most others.
He and others like him take the passage of 2 Timothy 2:15 to state that there is more than 1 message in the bible, more than 1 group of people being addressed (Jews & Gentiles) and that God deals with them differently and that the scripture should be applied accordingly. Now the messages to each group are NOT wildly different (Jesus is central to both) but their are differences and those differences have implications (like a pre-trib rapture, millennial kingdom etc) . Watch the videos to learn more or other videos that sum them up.
Here is a good summery video from someone else - only 25mins long:
Did you read the chapter of Romans 2 or just that one verse?Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!
What about Romans 2:4-16 where Paul describes “my gospel”There are some important differences. Probably the most important is the Gospel of the Kingdom requires works to show faith whereas the Gospel of Grace does not require works. Paul makes that clear in Ephesians 2:8-9 & Galatians 2:16
Paul specifically said that both Jews and Gentiles were baptized into One body.Thessalonians was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, so up until that time or shortly after, people probably thought the return of Jesus was imminent hence Paul's language. So it is talking about the 2nd coming but the timing was wrong. They had no idea it was far away in the future yet. No one knows the hour or the day, not even Paul knew.
As to the rapture, that's Jesus returning for the church, the body of Christ. The Jews are the bride of Christ, not the church, we are His body.
Jesus marries the bride when He returns to earth in the 2nd coming at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
Constantine didn’t do anything with the church other than signing the Edict of Milan thereby making Christianity legal in Rome and ending the persecution of Christians.Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!
One more thing, each of Paul’s epistles were written to a specific church or individual. He’s well known for specifically indicating exactly who he is addressing in every single one of his epistles in his opening statements.Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!
Well before Constantine the church taught-attested to by the ECFs- that man is still obligated to be righteous under the new covenant, but with a righteousness that is not based on the law but based on faith. Now by grace, walking by the Spirit, united with God, man can finally begin to be who he was created to be-and that is not a sinner; sin brings only condemantion and death.Twice Paul said my Gospel in Rom2v16 and 16v25.
This is our Gospel, of Grace by Faith, that we have had for the last 2000yrs. No one has been saved by the 1st Gospel of the Kingdom, found in Matt, Mark, Luke and John, since all those years ago.
This was because it was for the Jews only, as a Gospel of works, where by they have to endure to the end to be saved.
We don’t have works, just Grace by Faith, which is the free gift of God.
Unfortunately all denominations and non denominations are man made, dating back to Emperor Constantine, who to appease the Goths, Huns and Vandals, who were attacking Rome, allowed their paganism into the Church, and all subsequent churches and religions. They all mix the 2 Gospels together, making them void.
Church is ekklesia in the Greek, meaning called out ones, so for most going along with your particular brand of Christianity, along with adherence to all the rules, and rituals, think again!
His Grace is sufficient, nothing added. Eph2v8, God’s free gift to us.
The whole bible was written for us, but only Paul’s 13 Epistles were written to us!
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