My Gospel by Paul

[Guojing]

Works are not required to show faith

As William Barclay says, faith and action are inseparable;

You are contradicting yourself with these 2 statements

 

[Strong in Him]

You are contradicting yourself with these 2 statements

No, works are not required.

Works show that we have faith, yes.
Works are not required to prove to God that we have faith. Children, people with learning disabilities, folk in prison, people on their deathbeds may have a genuine conversion but be unable to do works.

And the work that God requires is to believe in the one that he sent, John 6:29.

 

[Guojing]

No, works are not required.

Works show that we have faith, yes.
Works are not required to prove to God that we have faith. Children, people with learning disabilities, folk in prison, people on their deathbeds may have a genuine conversion but be unable to do works.

And the work that God requires is to believe in the one that he sent, John 6:29.

If works are not required to show faith, than works are separable from faith.

Make up your mind

 

[Strong in Him]

Galatians 2:7-9 stated those 2 gospels clearly,

Paul had a calling to take the Gospel to Gentiles (uncircumcised), Peter was called to take the Gospel to Jews (circumcised).
They may have explained/presented it in different ways to fit their different audiences; that doesn't mean there were 2 different Gosdpels.

again I take the KJV literally there.

No doubt without reading it in context or trying to understand it, because that would be "spiritualising" it.

You are not going to change your mind,

Ditto.
I'm not going to change my mind about the truth, that Jesus, the Apostles and Paul all preached ONE Gospel; no.

 

[Guojing]

Paul had a calling to take the Gospel to Gentiles (uncircumcised), Peter was called to take the Gospel to Jews (circumcised).
They may have explained/presented it in different ways to fit their different audiences; that doesn't mean there were 2 different Gosdpels.

No doubt without reading it in context or trying to understand it, because that would be "spiritualising" it.


Ditto.
I'm not going to change my mind about the truth, that Jesus, the Apostles and Paul all preached ONE Gospel; no.

So I have explained to you the difference.

You rejected the explanation.

That is fine, we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Strong in Him]

If works are not required to show faith, than works are separable from faith.

No.
In some cases - people with learning disabilities, on death row/death beds or maybe in jail - people may be unable to DO works, which will show their new faith. That faith is still valid and I am certain such people would be saved - like the thief on the cross.

The work that God requires is to believe in the one that he sent, John 6:29.

 

[Strong in Him]

So I have explained to you the difference.

You rejected the explanation.

That is fine, we can agree to disagree and move on.

I've rejected your explanation, yes.

I agree to disagree with you; I may still post what I believe for the sake of others who may want to know if there really are 2 Gospels.

 

[Sorn]

I am not saying Baptism was a celebration event, but something Christians need to do, to help them.
Do you have a problem being adult believer water baptized?

I do not have a problem with a believer choosing to be baptized, adult or otherwise.
However, the act of baptism is not what saves them nor does it contribute in any way to them being saved.

You said "they should do it to help them" - help them with what - to understand what has happened to them in the spiritual plane? To help them understand how God sees them different now, to be symbolic of what happens when you are saved?? Hmmm, so getting baptised is a learning tool, a educational aid then. Makes sense as they did mot have YouTube, overhead projectors, TV's or internet forums back in those days. While they did have pen and paper (or parchment) it was expensive and not easy to reproduce widely so most people were taught by oral transmission of information & ideas by physical demonstrations, to that end participating in the act of baptism would help many, who were otherwise uneducated people to visualize some of the concepts being presented.

It was also to mark the occasion of being saved in a significant way, ie a ceremony or celebration.

As to the 2 gospels, I posted a video in Post #5 of this thread which explains the viewpoint, i recommend you watch it as it will save both you and me time. Would take me much longer to type out its salient points and you can watch it easily. If you are prepared to read my post then watch the video as i present it in place of my post.

 

[Guojing]

No.
In some cases - people with learning disabilities, on death row/death beds or maybe in jail - people may be unable to DO works, which will show their new faith. That faith is still valid and I am certain such people would be saved - like the thief on the cross.

The work that God requires is to believe in the one that he sent, John 6:29.

So works and faith is separable

Do you now agree with that?

 

[Sorn]

Above my pay grade, and irrelevant in any case. Unless you simply want to say that a commandment from our Lord may be igored if it doesn't jibe with our symbology or traditions.

Just a pointless exercise, then, eh? Right up there with communion.

we're pretty much free to do as we please, then, right? "Do as thou wilt..."?

That's a lot of trouble too, though, isn't it?

I think I've got it reduced down to sitting at home and drinking beer. Pretty good plan, huh?

"Just a pointless exercise, then, eh? Right up there with communion."
Not pointless if it helps you grow as a Christian, that is helps you understand, by symbology, what has happened in the spiritual plane, however it in no way completes your salvation. That was done by Christ on the cross, what He did there & resurrection etc is 100% of what needs to happen for you to be saved if you believe it. Jesus Christ did it all, you in no way complete it or add to it.

"we're pretty much free to do as we please, then, right? "Do as thou wilt..."?"
You don't need to be baptized to be saved

"That's a lot of trouble too, though, isn't it?"
Never said that, clutching at straws here are you??

"I think I've got it reduced down to sitting at home and drinking beer. Pretty good plan, huh?"
Good, you do get it. You are free to celebrate your new life in Christ however you see fit*. If you want to celebrate that by having a beer that is fine, you are not sinning & won't lose your salvation. Mind you if you typically celebrate major milestones in your life by having a beer then you may be a rather dour person or love beer way too much.

You are free to celebrate your new life in Christ by getting baptized
You are free to celebrate your new life in Christ by having a beer
You are free to celebrate your new life in Christ by getting baptized & having a beer
You are free to celebrate your new life in Christ by watching a youtube video on what it means to be saved what has happened to you on the spiritual plane, ie from Gods point of view, to help you understand it all AND to have a beer also!

You are free to celebrate by having so much beer that you pass out and vomit over yourself, you won't lose your salvation if you do that though it won't be very edifying, probably a bit extreme & certainly a sign that you have much to grow as a Christian yet & love beer waay too much! .

* - ideally in keeping with Christian morals & ethics of course

 

[Strong in Him]

So works and faith is separable

Do you now agree with that?

No. You're not reading my posts properly.

The work that God requires is to believe in Jesus - the One sent by God, John 6:29. Believing in and accepting Jesus is doing God's work and his will, John 6:40.
Jesus told us to put his words into practice and when we DO things, like Abraham being willing to offer his son, we show our faith.
In some circumstances - those that I mentioned - people put their faith in Jesus. They may be unable to DO anything, but they have still believed in Jesus; the One that God sent.

 

[Sorn]

Believing in and accepting Jesus is doing God's work and his will, John 6:40.

That describes having faith, a work is something that is outwardly visible, ie an action that others can see or perceive (whether they do see it is another matter).
Faith or believing in something is a change in your mental state or attitude to something, it is not a work.

 

[Strong in Him]

That describes having faith, a work is something that is outwardly visible, ie an action that others can see or perceive (whether they do see it is another matter).
Faith or believing in something is a change in your mental state or attitude to something, it is not a work.

That's not what Jesus said.
The Pharisees asked, "what must we do to do the work that God requires?" Jesus answered, "the work of God is this; to believe in the One that he sent", John 6:28-29.

The Pharisees were doing plenty of works - keeping the law, tithing, teaching, helping others to keep the law.
But they rejected Jesus.

 

[Sorn]

That's not what Jesus said.
The Pharisees asked, "what must we do to do the work that God requires?" Jesus answered, "the work of God is this; to believe in the One that he sent", John 6:28-29.

The Pharisees were doing plenty of works - keeping the law, tithing, teaching, helping others to keep the law.
But they rejected Jesus.

true, though the pharisees were likely thinking what actions were needed, things that they could do, that others can see etc., whereas Jesus replied in essence that the most important thing is first & foremost to believe in the one God sent, so to recognize & believe in Him.

So it could be that what Jesus was referring to was that they should study and understand their scripture & its prophecies so that they could recognize the messiah when he came and then believe in him. That's how they would believe in Him.
So the most important work was to know their their scripture as it pointed to Him. Definitely room for discussion but I can see why you might say faith = works = faith from that even though later Paul clearly distinguishes faith from works.

 

[Strong in Him]

So it could be that what Jesus was referring to was that they should study and understand their scripture & its prophecies so that they could recognize the messiah when he came and then believe in him. That's how they would believe in Him.

He was standing right there in front of them. They had just seen him feed more than 5000 people with bread and some fish, and talk about himself as the bread from heaven.

Jesus had already told them, "you search the Scriptures because you think that, in them, you have eternal life. These very Scriptures testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life", John 5:39-40. And, "if you believed Moses then you would believe me, for he wrote about me," John 5:46.

 

[Sorn]

He was standing right there in front of them. They had just seen him feed more than 5000 people with bread and some fish, and talk about himself as the bread from heaven.

Jesus had already told them, "you search the Scriptures because you think that, in them, you have eternal life. These very Scriptures testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life", John 5:39-40. And, "if you believed Moses then you would believe me, for he wrote about me," John 5:46.

Well the feeding of the 50000 had been the previous day in another location so those He spoke to may bot have seen it but probably heard about it in any case.

Perhaps He was admonishing them, possibly with some sarcasm, in effect saying, "you ask about works but how about you work on yourselves first, get your heart right, the posture of your heart right so that you are receptive to the message" Its clear from what He says that they did not really believe the stories about Moses etc, so their hearts were hard, they had the wrong posture and Jesus may have been referring to this. Get that right and then we can talk or move forward so to speak.

 

[bling]

So is a person saved if they are not baptized but believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior who is God the Son and died for our sins, was buried and rose again so we will too? If you can be a Christian without being baptized then baptism is a celebration only, it may be a good one but a celebration only. To say otherwise means its a work & we are back to works for salvation.
Also re 'to help them', well reading the bible helps then too, having fellowship with other Christians helps them too, is someone not saved if they don't do these things??

First off: God looks at the heart of a person to determine saved or not saved, which I cannot do. What they do and say does reflect what is on their heart, so what are they saying or doing?

If a believer has a good opportunity to be adult believer water baptized, why would they not cease that opportunity? It benefits them by physically going through what Christ went through with a death, burial and resurrection. It is an aid God created for us, to help us remember, an easy witness to others which can help them, it provides a starting point and a time you might experience the Spirit coming into you. It is for our easy participation in our “education” and not just listening to some lecture or even saying some words, but physical involvement.

 

[Strong in Him]

Perhaps He was admonishing them, possibly with some sarcasm, in effect saying, "you ask about works but how about you work on yourselves first, get your heart right, the posture of your heart right so that you are receptive to the message"

Yes, but our faith cannot depend on what he might, perhaps, have meant on any occasion.
I am quite sure that Jesus, the teacher, was capable of saying "get your heart right" if that's what he'd meant. When he explained the parable of the Sower to his disciples he said, quite plainly, "the seed that falls on good soil represents those who receive the word and understand it", Matthew 13:23.
But he didn't say that here. He was asked "what must we do to do the work that God requires?" and answered, "the work of God is to believe in the one whom he sent."

 

[Sorn]

I am quite sure that Jesus, the teacher, was capable of saying "get your heart right" if that's what he'd meant. When he explained the parable of the Sower to his disciples he said, quite plainly, "the seed that falls on good soil represents those who receive the word and understand it", Matthew 13:23.
But he didn't say that here. He was asked "what must we do to do the work that God requires?" and answered, "the work of God is to believe in the one whom he sent."

He could also have called the pharisees 'misguided unbelieving self serving community leaders' or other words to that effect but He didn't, instead He called them a 'brood of vipers', i don't think they were literal snakes

 

[Strong in Him]

He could also have called the pharisees 'misguided unbelieving self serving community leaders' or other words to that effect but He didn't, instead He called them a 'brood of vipers', i don't think they were literal snakes

So you're dismissing that verse by saying that Jesus didn't literally mean it?

Brood of vipers was a phrase that John the Baptist had used, Matthew 3:7, as had Jesus himself, Matthew 23:33. In the latter verse, Jesus called them snakes - after verses calling them hypocrites, blind guides etc. They knew that Jesus wasn't saying that they were literal snakes.

John 6:29 is not allegory, metaphor or poetic language. Jesus said "my Father's work is to believe in the one he sent,"; either that's true, or he was lying.