Mmmmm, I don't think so.We are made in the image of God. So if God is three in one that means we are three in one in some way, too.
After 51 years, I cannot fully grasp the mystery of the trinity itself. How can it be the same and yet distinct?
These words from the cross have troubled many for centuries. There appears to be several possible explanations for Jesus saying this.
(1) Some claim that he was simply pointing to one of the Psalms as a way of showing others to have faith in God. Sorry, but most of my conservative Christian friends through the years have always told me that context is best used to interpret Scripture. Hence, the context of Jesus' suffering on the cross does not appear to lend itself to him pointing to one of the Psalms.
....
How on earth can you claim this in the face of Job 1:6-12?I'm not super duper knowledgeable about this subject but I would guess God the Father forsook him because of the fact that he was made to be sin for us (according to 2 Corinthians 5:21) and God the Father could not have sin in his presence.
Mmmmm, I don't think so.
GOD is three persons in a UNITY of divine attributes in which it is more correct to say GOD is ONE than GOD is three.
Being in HIs image cannot mean that for us at all, sigh.
Please consider that being made in HIS image might mean that we are suitable marriage partners for HIM (and others are not) by creation since that would seem to be HIS purpose in our creation.
This sort of behavior needs to stop. Thanks.... So how dare you... to try and turn that around into a crap Message, you white-washed charlatan!
This sort of behavior needs to stop. Thanks.
How on earth can you claim this in the face of Job 1:6-12?
Satan wasn't sinning, he was doing his job.
Exactly.
Many aren't aware of what God was revealing about Satan in the Isaiah 10 chapter, with use of the title "the Assyria" as a symbolic name for Satan there. God shows that he is simply His punishing rod upon the rebellious. That's how we are to see Satan.
Some brethren have come out of paganism, and the pagan idea is that Satan is like co-equal in power with God, when he is not. Satan can only do what God allows him to do, and that is to use him as a whippin' stick upon the rebellious. When He is done with that whipping stick (i.e., Satan), He will throw it in the fire.
Trinity is an analogy for something we cannot directly apprehend. With regard to us(how we experience God), God is singular. There is no distinction between Father/Son/Spirit as all are God. But in His inner experience(how God experiences God), there is a relationship, an eternal giving between Father/Son/Spirit such that God is love without needing creation to receive His love.My first venture into such discussions deviates a little from the dialogue. After 51 years, I cannot fully grasp the mystery of the trinity itself. How can it be the same and yet distinct? I have heard many attempts to draw closer to a resolution, but none are completely satisfactory.
A man can be a Son, Husband and Father as an individual. But this would not explain how only the Father knows the day and the hour of His return. But if they are distinct, how can "My father and I are One" be true?
I must conclude then that I do not understand fully even two of the three parts of the trinity. Perhaps it is beyond mortal ability and something which will be revealed in eternity.
But to the quote from the cross, I see nothing inconsistent with any of the viewpoints. They point to prophesy and the psalms. They also point to God as Father not looking upon sin as Jesus as Son bore OUR sin. This doesn't necessarily indicate a break in the unity if we could grasp the mystery of the Trinity.
I basically agree with that, but I think the Lord was "done" with the whipping stick with the incarnation of the Son as Jesus.
I assume you're referring to John 12:31, which Lord Jesus said just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified...
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
Did the "judgment of this world" happen on that day of Christ's crucifixion, or at His resurrection from the dead? I don't see it, as the evil in this present world still continues. Likewise, with that casting out, I see that linked with the future event of Revelation 12:7-17 when Satan and his angels are cast out of the heavenly dimension down to earth in 'our' dimension for the end of this world (i.e., the tribulation).
And in 1 Peter 5:8, Apostle Peter was still warning about Satan as a roaring lion is walking about seeking whom he may devour. That means Satan definitely is still not yet bound today, and is still at work.
I did not mean to invoke all the attempts to grasp the trinity, just to admit that it is true, whether we can grasp it or not. It is conceptually the same as "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believed."Are not all apple trees the same, ie they all have apple tree dna and are not bats, rats or cats? Yet is not each apple tree distinct?
Now consider that GOD who is Spirit has no dna but GOD does have attributes which are defining characteristics.
The special nature of GODly characteristics, ie the omnis, are such that they create a UNITY [echad, unity as per Gen 2:24] of characteristics though not of persons therefore we can accept three person whose divine attributes make them to be ONE GOD.
These words from the cross have troubled many for centuries. There appears to be several possible explanations for Jesus saying this.
(1) Some claim that he was simply pointing to one of the Psalms as a way of showing others to have faith in God. Sorry, but most of my conservative Christian friends through the years have always told me that context is best used to interpret Scripture. Hence, the context of Jesus' suffering on the cross does not appear to lend itself to him pointing to one of the Psalms.
(2) I recall a Baptist preacher 50 years ago who spoke about these words on Palm Sunday and he said that Jesus felt forsaken on the cross by the Father and this was Jesus' way of expressing his isolation at the moment. While this explanation seems a little better than the first one, it is still not very satisfying for many of us. Even Luther tried to do a sermon on these words, but could not understand how God could forsake God.
(3) Jesus was not God, but merely the Son of God and thus truly did feel forsaken by God on the cross.
(4) Perhaps the best explanation of all is one that many of you will refuse to consider, as it could pose a problem for those who believe that the Holy Spirit protects Scripture from making any errors of significant importance. While doing online research recently, I came across what is reportedly an Aramaic translation of these words and it goes like this: "My God, my God, for this I was destined". I must say that this reported Aramaic translation makes much more sense to me. Now it is true that such a change in Scripture is not really a change that directly impacts salvation, but it is still a significant change from the translations that virtually all of us are used to seeing.
What do the rest of you think of these words from the cross? Is it quite possible that the Greek translation erred in the meaning of Jesus' intent and that this reported Aramaic translation is the accurate one?
I'm confused. The entirety of the Bible was written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is, by one of the persons of God. He cannot contradict Himself and neither can His words be hidden or obscured, since that would mean He made a mistake somewhere. So how could the possibility of another translation that means something very different from what we find in the Scriptures even be seriously considered?
What you appear to be saying is that the writers of the two Gospels where this phrase appears got something badly wrong (or their translators did). But given what I just stated, that's impossible.
I could post what I believe the phrase itself means, but I would like to hear your answer first, please.
These words from the cross have troubled many for centuries. There appears to be several possible explanations for Jesus saying this.
...
(2) I recall a Baptist preacher 50 years ago who spoke about these words on Palm Sunday and he said that Jesus felt forsaken on the cross by the Father and this was Jesus' way of expressing his isolation at the moment. While this explanation seems a little better than the first one, it is still not very satisfying for many of us. Even Luther tried to do a sermon on these words, but could not understand how God could forsake God.
(3) Jesus was not God, but merely the Son of God and thus truly did feel forsaken by God on the cross.
...
What do the rest of you think of these words from the cross? Is it quite possible that the Greek translation erred in the meaning of Jesus' intent and that this reported Aramaic translation is the accurate one?
Might I suggest that you read and understand Philippians 2:6-11, which explains all those questions like "If Jesus was God why didn't He know the the day and the hour etc."Psalm 22 is about David, and about the Messiah, and it's beneficial to take the entire Psalm 22 context into account. Jesus apparently identifies with David's position and attitude here, so if the one who is the Son of God, and who came down from heaven, died, that is pretty much the lowest point - so from Jesus' perspective God had 'left' him at that moment. God is life, and Jesus died - that's a direct link (but nowhere in the Biblical texts we read that 'God died').
Now in Psalm 22 the David/Messiah figure is calling out to 'El', 'Elohim'; and the David/Messiah figure is distinct from YHWH in Psalm 22:8 :
He (=David/Messiah) trusts in YHWH;Also in the NT at various other places we find direct references to the 'God of Jesus':
let him (=YHWH) deliver him (=David/Messiah);
let him (=YHWH) rescue him (=David/Messiah),
for he (=YHWH) delights in him (=David/Messiah)!
John 20:17
I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, ...Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...Ephesians 1:17
.. that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, ...Hebrews 10:5-7 / Psalm 40:6-8
I delight to do your will, O my God; ...1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! ...The pattern IMHO is quite clear: God the Father was (during Jesus' ministry on earth), and still is (after His ascension) the God of Jesus.
In the NT we find the phrase 'the Son of God' many times, but never 'the Son of God the Father'. Many times we find that Jesus is 'at the right hand of God (or Majesty)' (about 10 times in the NT), but nowhere do we find the phrase 'at the right hand of God the Father'.
All this is consistent with God the Father = the God of Jesus, and hence, the inherent authority hierarchy between them, as is expressed in:
1 Corinthians 11:3
.. that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.So far my observations ..
Might I suggest that you read and understand Philippians 2:6-11, which explains all those questions like "If Jesus was God why didn't He know the the day and the hour etc."
Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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