• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Basil the Great, Jul 24, 2021.

  1. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    These words from the cross have troubled many for centuries. There appears to be several possible explanations for Jesus saying this.

    (1) Some claim that he was simply pointing to one of the Psalms as a way of showing others to have faith in God. Sorry, but most of my conservative Christian friends through the years have always told me that context is best used to interpret Scripture. Hence, the context of Jesus' suffering on the cross does not appear to lend itself to him pointing to one of the Psalms.
    (2) I recall a Baptist preacher 50 years ago who spoke about these words on Palm Sunday and he said that Jesus felt forsaken on the cross by the Father and this was Jesus' way of expressing his isolation at the moment. While this explanation seems a little better than the first one, it is still not very satisfying for many of us. Even Luther tried to do a sermon on these words, but could not understand how God could forsake God.
    (3) Jesus was not God, but merely the Son of God and thus truly did feel forsaken by God on the cross.
    (4) Perhaps the best explanation of all is one that many of you will refuse to consider, as it could pose a problem for those who believe that the Holy Spirit protects Scripture from making any errors of significant importance. While doing online research recently, I came across what is reportedly an Aramaic translation of these words and it goes like this: "My God, my God, for this I was destined". I must say that this reported Aramaic translation makes much more sense to me. Now it is true that such a change in Scripture is not really a change that directly impacts salvation, but it is still a significant change from the translations that virtually all of us are used to seeing.

    What do the rest of you think of these words from the cross? Is it quite possible that the Greek translation erred in the meaning of Jesus' intent and that this reported Aramaic translation is the accurate one?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +30,617
    Anglican
    Married
    That ^ is what I would have replied if you hadn't covered it yourself.
     
  3. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    Many thanks, Albion.
     
  4. Carol Walker

    Carol Walker New Member

    65
    +15
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    I'm confused. The entirety of the Bible was written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is, by one of the persons of God. He cannot contradict Himself and neither can His words be hidden or obscured, since that would mean He made a mistake somewhere. So how could the possibility of another translation that means something very different from what we find in the Scriptures even be seriously considered?

    What you appear to be saying is that the writers of the two Gospels where this phrase appears got something badly wrong (or their translators did). But given what I just stated, that's impossible.

    I could post what I believe the phrase itself means, but I would like to hear your answer first, please.
     
  5. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +1,798
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    It may mean that for all I know but if Jesus was God it does seem a little odd for him to have a destiny. Who or what could determine the destiny of God?
     
  6. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    I am not one who believes that God necessarily protects every translator of the Bible from making an error. Now, there appears to be very few significant differences between Bible translations. Truth be told, this is the only one that I have ever encountered that I would call a significant difference. As to what I personally believe, I am undecided. However, I will say that the reported Aramaic translation fits the traditional view of Jesus' role much better than him feeling forsaken on the cross.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • List
  7. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

    +7,614
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Bearing all our sins, Christ suffered at that moment the way sin separates us from God our Father. He stayed faithful to His Father, through this fully, until it was finished.
     
  8. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +707
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Why do you think context discards an intention of pointing at the Psalms? After all, this finds its fullest form in Matthew which essentially stands as an apologetic for how the suffering Messiah not only was a possible interpretation of Jewish Scripture but Jesus in His suffering is the fulfillment of that Scripture. The entire scene, when compared to the Psalm in question, is paralleled down to the mocking crowd's words. It isn't simply a close parallel, but exact in the words used in the opening of said psalm and the words on the cross. Being a psalm of lament, it would be natural for a human being to sing when finding themselves in distress especially as it ends in triumph. So both within the context of Jesus on the cross, and the gospel that it is found in the context lends itself readily to pointing to that psalm.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  9. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +1,184
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    12 facts about God and Jesus last words. Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

    1-God is Triune
    2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
    3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
    4- Jesus is God
    5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
    6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
    7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
    8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
    9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
    10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
    11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
    12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit



    God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

    We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.


    God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

    Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

    All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

    We can see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.


    God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

    God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor in the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

    Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend not found in scripture.

    The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

    Psalms 22:24
    For he has not despised or scorned
    the suffering of the afflicted one;
    he has not hidden his face from him
    but has listened to his cry for help.

    Luke 23:46
    Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

    John 16:32
    “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

    And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +30,617
    Anglican
    Married
    The two statements are not as different from each other as some may think. Also, remember that Jesus was a complete human as well as having the fullness of his divine nature at the same time, and if we look at every statement of His that is recorded in the Gospels, we do find that some seem very God-like while others seem all too human.

    I do not pretend to know exactly how that works, but the idea of Him, after hours of torture, being then somewhat delirious and nearing death, then speaking more with the feelings of a human than as Almighty God doesn't seem unthinkable.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  11. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    The context of the situation is that Jesus was suffering greatly on the cross., We all know that. Hence, to say that phrase by itself, sounds very much like one who felt forsaken, as the Baptist pastor preached to me and others on Good Friday 50 years ago, and not like one who was pointing to Psalm 22 in hopes that his audience would see the positive side of things. I could easily be wrong, but to me, the context of his words are those of desperation and isolation, as he is feeling excruciating pain on the cross.
     
  12. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +1,798
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I agree but wouldn't a human person in all the agony of the cross and at the very moment of death be more likely to feel forsaken by God than to have philosophical and abstract thoughts about whatever his destiny was?
     
  13. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +707
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Have you never been under duress and chosen to sing a familiar song? Never eased your pain with a hymn?
     
  14. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    Yes, by all means, I have often sung my favorite hymn to myself in times of trouble. However, I could never begin to compare my suffering to what Jesus endured on the cross.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +30,617
    Anglican
    Married
    I dunno, but then why did the Good Thief on the Cross who was also nearing death address Jesus concerning the life to come? And Jesus explained something about it to him in reply.
     
  16. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    You do make a noteworthy observation, though I can also see the other side as well. If Jesus did indeed know that he was always destined to die on the cross, then the reported Aramaic translation might make more sense then him saying aloud that he was being forsaken by God.
     
  17. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +707
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    True, but that phenomenon gives a plausible reason for Jesus to be "quoting" the Psalm, as that would have been a well worn song to sing in times of pain and trouble. So for both prophetic value and contextual reasons it is perfectly plausible Jesus was "referencing" that psalm.
     
  18. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +1,798
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I don't know either but his crucifixion lasted several hours and there may be a difference in that the forsaken/destiny remark was made right at the very end of his life when his suffering would have been at it's zenith.
     
  19. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,863
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    I understand your position and many Christians do hold to it.
     
  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +30,617
    Anglican
    Married
    By the way, the Aramaic translation is also given as "for this was I kept" which may be understood as somewhat less dramatic or transcendent than when "destiny" is the translation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
Loading...