My Forbidden Fruit Challenge

[~Anastasia~]

I am not who AV says I am but I am sure he thinks I am because I have seen in the short time I have been here that asking a simple question can amount to mocking Christianity, I can easily see that if I ask something that might make a Christian think it could well be a banning offence.

Your questions were sincere then?

They did not seem so. If they were, then I apologize that I don't have an answer for you. But that is not how one approaches things.

If you want proof, the best way might be to go somewhere where Christians are being martyred, and see how they live, and die. Such actual grace as they receive and display cannot be the result of "fairy stories".

 

[AV1611VET]

If you want proof, the best way might be to go somewhere where Christians are being martyred, and see how they live, and die. Such actual grace as they receive and display cannot be the result of "fairy stories".

People like to use Mark Twain's definition of faith:

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

In my opinion, that's an affront to our Christian martyrs who went to their deaths refusing to do what most unbelievers routinely do: deny Christ.

 

[~Anastasia~]

People like to use Mark Twain's definition of faith:

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

In my opinion, that's an affront to our Christian martyrs who went to their deaths refusing to do what most unbelievers routinely do: deny Christ.

I am reminded of those times when the martyrs were being put to death, and their steadfastness and grace were such that sometimes the (usually soldiers) were converted by witnessing them. Even though they too were martyred on the spot as a result.

 

[Moral Orel]

If you want proof, the best way might be to go somewhere where Christians are being martyred, and see how they live, and die. Such actual grace as they receive and display cannot be the result of "fairy stories".

Meh... Martyrs don't work as proof anymore since we've had the Jim Jones cult. Mothers happily fed poison to their infants based on nothing more than "fairy stories".

 

[AV1611VET]

Mothers happily fed poison to their infants ...

Oh, my.

Is that what they're teaching in higher academia now?

 

[Moral Orel]

Oh, my.

Is that what they're teaching in higher academia now?

Yeah, you're right. "Happily" is spin. Doesn't mean they didn't do it because of their unfounded, unevidenced beliefs.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Martrydom may be evidence of sincere belief, but it's not evidence that those beliefs are true.

 

[AV1611VET]

Martrydom may be evidence of sincere belief,

I take it you don't buy Mark Twain's definition of faith then?

 

[Jimmy D]

I take it you don't buy Mark Twain's definition of faith then?

I don't.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I take it you don't buy Mark Twain's definition of faith then?

It wasn't so much a definition as an ironic social comment, voiced indirectly:

"There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said, Faith is believing what you know ain't so."​

But I can understand why biblical literalists might miss Twain's subtleties, literalism can become a habit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not those sorts of martyrs.

But seriously (and it is quite serious) ... if you don't wish to investigate, then that is everyone's choice.

Why disrupt someone else's discussion on another subject to argue about it?

I've always wondered why self-proclaimed atheists would seemingly waste their time arguing against things they don't believe in.

I certainly don't visit Bigfoot sites to argue against believing in them.

 

[Moral Orel]

Not those sorts of martyrs.

What's the difference? They believed in something so strongly that they not only died for it, they killed their own children for it. Seems like a show of greater faith than simply dying yourself. Martyrdom is evidence that strongly held beliefs can push you to do drastic things. It isn't evidence that you have good evidence to have such strongly held beliefs. Jonestown isn't even the only suicide cult.

I've always wondered why self-proclaimed atheists would seemingly waste their time arguing against things they don't believe in.

I certainly don't visit Bigfoot sites to argue against believing in them.

Well that would matter if all of us had completely made up our minds. I'd like to hear a good argument for God's existence, but I see lots of bad ones. If we can't get past the bad ones, what chance is there we'll ever get to the good ones? Some atheists may say there is no good argument for God's existence, but not all of us.

And if someone didn't look into Bigfoot at all before deciding they didn't believe he existed, then they're as foolish as the people who think he's real after never actually finding any evidence. That isn't me using Bigfoot as an analogy for Christians, by the way. Bigfoot and God are supported by two completely different types of evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd like to hear a good argument for God's existence,

Why? so you can deny it out of hand?

Here you go:

The Bible, martyrs, churches, holidays, time divided into BC/AD, churches and other edifices, hymns, carols and other songs, bumper stickers, slogans, organizations, debates, testimonies and anecdotes, symbols (is there one on your flag?) and other iconography.

 

[Moral Orel]

Why? so you can deny it out of hand?

I don't deny things "out of hand". There's usually a good reason to deny most of the arguments out there.

Here you go:

The Bible, martyrs, churches, holidays, time divided into BC/AD, churches and other edifices, hymns, carols and other songs, bumper stickers, slogans, organizations, debates, testimonies and anecdotes, symbols (is there one on your flag?) and other iconography.

These aren't arguments, unless you mean, "these things exist, therefore God exists because there's no possible way they could exist without God". But, yes, I've looked at those things and how they can exist with no God being present. I'm not going to go through them one by one in a thread about forbidden fruit just to prove to you I've put thought into it, though.

Also, I don't deny most "testimonies and anecdotes". I just don't have a way to verify the person giving the testimony isn't either incorrect, lying, or crazy. A lot of the ones I've heard come down to, "well if I had seen that, I don't think I could explain it either". But without being there, there's no way to tell what they're leaving out of the story of the events. I also find the fine-tuning argument pretty eerily hard to explain away.

And for the record, I've gone through the atheistic arguments and found most of them lacking as well. At best they bring up good questions, but of course none of them prove anything, or even come close to proving the non-existence of God.

Even if something is true, that doesn't mean every person who believes it does so for a good reason. And even if something is true, that doesn't mean there's a good reason that anyone knows of to believe it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The Bible, martyrs, churches, holidays, time divided into BC/AD, churches and other edifices, hymns, carols and other songs, bumper stickers, slogans, organizations, debates, testimonies and anecdotes, symbols (is there one on your flag?) and other iconography.

All evidence of God beliefs only. If that's the best argument you've got for God (bumper stickers?), things are worse than I'd thought in Christian theology...

 

[AV1611VET]

Why? so you can deny it out of hand?

These aren't arguments,

All evidence of God beliefs only.

Thanks for the QED, fellas.

 

[Paul Finch]

If you want proof, the best way might be to go somewhere where Christians are being martyred, and see how they live, and die. Such actual grace as they receive and display cannot be the result of "fairy stories".

Where would I go to find those people, I know where I can find the people who die for Islam but the Christians not so much.

 

[Paul Finch]

I am reminded of those times when the martyrs were being put to death, and their steadfastness and grace were such that sometimes the (usually soldiers) were converted by witnessing them. Even though they too were martyred on the spot as a result.

Hear say, all hear say, if you will believe that then it's very likely you will believe anything that comes along that supports what you want to believe.

 

[quatona]

I've always wondered why self-proclaimed atheists would seemingly waste their time arguing against things they don't believe in.

Well, when certain views have a certain societal/cultural/political influence and impact, it´s the most natural thing to discuss and contradict them exactly because you disagree with them.
Hope this helps.

I certainly don't visit Bigfoot sites to argue against believing in them.

Neither do I. Now, the difference between Bigfoot and Biblegod: See above.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Where would I go to find those people, I know where I can find the people who die for Islam but the Christians not so much.

Syria and Africa, most recently.