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My First Topic

Discussion in 'Whosoever Will, May Come - Liberal' started by mysterychristian, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    II Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Doctrine: Right Teaching / Right Believing

    Reproof: Telling someone when they are wrong, when they are not believing according to the Rightly Divided Word

    Correction: Teaching and leading someone back to Right Believing

    All three of these are: Instruction in Righteousness

    Here is my question?

    If this verse is true, which we all should know it is, why is it frowned upon when someone Teaches, Reproves or Corrects another, with the intention of Instructing them in Righteousness?

    If people err because they do not know the Word, the Scriptures, then logically they need a knowledge of God's Word.

    The Word must be our basis for getting them back to right believing through reproof and correction.

    No one can know the power of God and live according to God's plan without knowing the Scriptures.

    As God's servants we must be the ones to lovingly hold forth the accuracy and integrity of His Word to people and offer reproof and correction when they are needed.

    In doing this we are offering instruction in righteousness, which is a benefit to the body of believers.
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Criada

    Criada Well-Known Member Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    I agree with this in principle, but I think your definition of a body of believers is a very important aspect.
    We are commanded above all to show love in our dealings with one another. Within my own church, where I know everyone and am in a covenant relationship of love, I would not hesitate to correct someone who was obviously going against the word of God.... and I would (and have) gladly accept correction from any of my brothers and sisters.
    I'm not sure, though, how this works on a message board, where I don't have that relationship with most of the members. I think it is too easy to speak from pride or my own intellect in this situation, rather than by God's spirit. Too many people are hurt by posts which are more judgmental than loving, and that is a very fine line to walk without the benefit of body language and of prior relationship.
  3. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    But here is what I mean, if someone on here has a legitimate question, you should be able to answer them according to the Word with out reservation, I agree to pop in and say hey you are wrong may not be wise, but I do believe that at times people are instructed on these forums not according to the word and I believe it is our right and responsibilty to stand up for truth and protect someone from being instructed wrongly.

    I know that this can cause tension and fights at times, but without doing this the integrity and accuracy of the word becomes muddled and vailed with error and people get sidetracked on subjects that are not even important, instead of being led into the loving arms of God, via His Word..

    I believe that this is the only way I can truly operate on this forum, without adulterating (watering down) the Word.
  4. Im_A

    Im_A Legend

    In Relationship
    well good for you.

    but there are people here on the forums who don't take the Bible as any authority over their life, so the conversation from lets say someone who does, to someone who doesn't hold hte Bible as authoritative, would need to take a different route to have any point. quote the Bible all you want say for example to me to prove your side right, i'll just laugh because quoting the Bible to me, doesn't make any sense to have an opinion on a topic so anyone using it as authoritative towards me in a conversation would be useless...unless it is all based upon self-gratifying the believer's mind of being a bible believeing Christian that the Christian uses the Bible as they do.

    and then with the believers, you'll find people who take a different route of interpretating scriptures that you may be bringing up for the topic at hand. which then leads to no one correcting anyone and just a pointless debate of interpretating the scriptures.

    i wish there was a better way to use the Bible in discourses with the unbelievers like myself and with the believers who may not take the same interpretation method that others use. but at this date, i don't believe there is any.
  5. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    You gotta understand something, people who want to know God, will not know God without a knowledge of the Bible held forth, the Bible is God's Heart to all generations, it has everything that pertains to life and Godliness in it.

    If you wanted for example to know your Dad, whom you have never seen or talked to, and he wrote you a letter, all you would have to know him by would be the words on the page of the letter he wrote you, which came from his heart and will, its the same with the Bible.

    I would not try and win an unbeliever to God any way, only someone who wants answers to life, someone who believes there is or may be a God, but hasnt heard enough truth to believe, someone who has not found any answers so far that logically line up with the practicality of life..

    God will only be known when people have a desire to know him, He does not waste His time pushing His Word on people whom He knows will not believe.

    He knows the right time when they will believe and just what they need to hear to open their hearts to believe.
  6. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    please clear in box................

  7. Im_A

    Im_A Legend

    In Relationship

    hopefully you got my pm :)

    in regards to your poost here, i do not believe the Bible's God's Word since i know historically, the Bible was not written by God but by men and was cannonized by church officials.

    so let's go with your idea. if God is my dad, and he is trying to get through to me through these letters, then he is a horrible father. to use someone else to get to your child instead of yourself is a horrible parent. that's why God cannot be put into the box of parenthood as far as i'm concerned.

    and to you, the Bible is most important book of revelation of God, but you have to convince someone else that the Bible is, when they believe the Bible isn't or that there may be more equally revelant scriptures to find truth or the face of God in. so with that said, and with what you said earlier that you wouldn't try to win someone to God, but only help someone searching for truth that hasn't heard enough, you would have to one, prove that you have heard enough, and personally i'd argue against that for hours if you make that claim. its too much of a touchy area to dabble with. your dealing with the whole being of a person by trying to convince them of truth if they are seeking and if all your giving them is your own reason to believe, that's a failure in trying to reach them...as far as i'm concerned at least, and just planting seeds that grow too fast and then die and wither away.

    hopefully i have stayed on topic. :)
  8. Adammi

    Adammi A Nicene Christian not in CF's Xians Only Club

    That's a great scripture. It opens so many questions. What does the word "scriptures" mean? What compose the "scriptures"? Which "scriptures"? And while these "scriptures" (whatever they are) are good for the above stated, are they the only things good? Or can we also use tradition, reason, science, and so forth to also shape doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction along with scripture. I greatly value this scripture, but before we apply it we must first interpret it.
  9. DeanM

    DeanM Well-Known Member

    Other Religion
    Hi Mystery,

    This is certainly an interesting topic. One could read the scripture you posted and take it to various degrees.

    Let's say that at one end of the spectrum, one may see this scripture as saying that the Word of God should be shared, rather than locked up in a vault and hidden.

    On the other side, some may see this a call to tie non-believers to trees, pin their eyelids open, and whip them until they admit that Jesus is Lord.

    Somewhere in between lies the truth.

    For me, I usually trust the more learned folks among us to do the teaching.

    But, when opportunity strikes, I may have a few words to add as well, like now.

    I tend to believe John:

    John 3:16 (New International Version)

    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    And for me, the buck stops there. Of course, I will always do my best to guide anybody who asks for help, but I'm not going to hard-sell Christianity to anyone who doesn't ask.

    Why? Because the churches are there for that exact reason. Their doors are open, and they would do a far better job of helping others see the Path.

    Me, I'm just a musician . . .
  10. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    In Order to accurately discuss this scripture we have to play by the rules of the Book at Hand, and here is one rule we must adhere to.....before we discuss this..

    As long as we do not cross this principle we can proceed...

    If you were to open websters dictionary, you would find it has keys and rules on how to use it, so does the bible, we would not open the dictionary and disagree with its definitions, at least most would not, if they did you would have to say that the person was a little prideful, so just as websters defines the words it uses, the Bible itself defines its own words within itself....

    I Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

  11. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    What I mean is to give it your full open minded unbiased undecided (already in your mind it is wrong) attention and consideration....

    How We Got the Word of God

    If the Bible is, as it declares itself to be, God's Word to mankind, how did we get the Word of God from God? Several verses in the New Testament tell us how the Word of God, the Bible, came into existence:

    II Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God
    [theopneustos - God-breathed], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Matthew 4:4
    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    The Word of God came out of the mouth of God. He breathed out the scripture. God is the source of His Word. So it came from God. But how did it get to man?

    II Peter 1:21
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    This verse tells us two things. It tells us how the Word of God came to man. It also tells us how it did NOT come. It did not come by the will of man. Some person did not just decide to write his ideas and call it God's Word. A person did not think it up. It did not come from some man trying to tell about his experiences with God. Man did not decide to write the Word of God. It did not come by the will of man!

    The Word of God came to men of God who spake or wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost - The Holy Spirit - GOD. In other Words, God, who is Spirit, gave His word to holy men, men who believed God, and they wrote that which He revealed to them. This truth is stated in other words in two other verses:

    Galatians 1:11-12
    But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me [the Apostle Paul] is not after man.

    For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Once again, God tells us how the Word of God came to man and He tells us how it did NOT come.

    The Word of God was not after man. It was not some idea that Paul thought up! Paul also did NOT receive the Word of God from another man. He was not taught it!

    Paul was a holy man of God. God revealed His Word to Paul by revelation of [or from] Jesus Christ. It was revealed to Paul.

    The word "revealed" means to uncover or show forth. God showed His Word to Paul.

    To understand how this process worked, you must understand that God is Spirit (John 4:24).

    In the Old Testament God would take of His Spirit and place it upon holy men who believed His Word.

    Then speaking Spirit to spirit He revealed His Word to those holy men:

    Numbers 11:16-17
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel . . .
    And I will come down and talk with thee there: and

    I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; . . .

    Deuteronomy 34:9
    And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses.

    Every man (or woman) to whom God revealed His Word, were holy men and women that had the spirit from God upon them.

    In the New Testament, after the day of Pentecost, it became available for the spirit to be born in men and women. But the process is the same. God, who is Spirit, reveals His Word to the spirit in a holy man or woman.

    There is only one source of the Word of God and that is God. He is the author of His Word.

    Many men and women wrote or spoke that which God revealed to them, but God is the author of His Word.

    Jeremiah was a holy man of God in the Old Testament to whom God revealed His Word. God was the author of the book of Jeremiah, but Jeremiah was the holy man of God who spoke forth that which was revealed to him. And Jeremiah had a scribe, named Baruch, who actually wrote the words down. There are many writers and speakers of the Word of God, but God is the one and only author of His Word. Take a look at how this process worked:

    Jeremiah 36:1
    And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

    The word of God came from the Lord unto Jeremiah.

    Jeremiah 36:2
    Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee . . .

    God spoke to Jeremiah and told him to write the Word of God.

    Jeremiah 36:4
    Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

    Jeremiah listened to God and spoke exactly what God had revealed to him. Then Baruch the scribe wrote the words - word for word - in a scroll as Jeremiah spoke. That is how we got God's Word!

    Now when the king, Jehoiakim, heard the Word of God spoken by Jeremiah and written by Baruch he was not too happy. The Word of God revealed that Jehoiakim was outside of God's will, so he was not very pleased to hear what was written in the scroll:

    Jeremiah 36:22-23
    Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.

    And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves [columns], he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

    Jehoiakim thought that he could just cut up God's Word and burn it in the fire and that would get rid of it. But burning the scroll did not get rid of the author of the Word. God simply gave the Word to Jeremiah again:

    Jeremiah 36:27-28
    Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,

    Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.
    Jeremiah 36:32

    Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim the King of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.

    God protects and cares for His Word. It is very important to Him. It is His Will for man. It is the way He has chosen to reveal His Will to us.

    Jehoiakim could not get rid of the Word of God because Jehoiakim could not get rid of God. God revealed the same exact words to Jeremiah and Jeremiah spoke them to Baruch who wrote them down a second time. And then God gave Jeremiah some added revelation and more like words were added to the scroll.
    The Bible is God's revealed Word. You cannot know God's Will without knowing His Word. God's Word is His Will. He has taken great care to preserve it and make it available to us.

    Many people ask, pray, plead, even beg for God to make known His will unto them. They read books and articles about the Bible. They ask other people what the Bible says. They look for signs from God.

    They guess about what God might want them to know. They do everything but read that which God has already made known.

    The Bible is just as much God talking now as it was God talking when He originally revealed it. God has guaranteed His Word.
  12. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    Receive with Meekness

    To receive God's Word we must approach it with meekness.
    Meekness is not letting others walk on you. It is holding no malice, jealousy, evil speaking, baiting, or hypocrisy toward others.

    It is having a pure teachable heart.

    God has promised that he will teach the meek His Word.

    Meekness is being "coachable & teachable."

    If a person thinks he knows something he rarely listens when being taught.

    James 1:21
    Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    I Peter 2:1-2
    Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    The word "naughtiness" in James 1:21 and the word "malice" in I Peter 2:1 are the Greek word kakia.

    Kakia means evil or malice. You cannot hold evil in your heart and receive God's Word.
    Acts 8:22

    Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, [kakia] and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

    Simon offered Peter and John money to get an understanding of the power of God that these apostles manifested in ministering holy spirit in manifestation to the new believers in Samaria. The evil intent in his heart was that he would be exalted in the eyes of the people if he had the power in manifestation that he saw the apostles operating. The Word of God cannot be bought. In order to receive God's Word you must lay aside all evil intent and receive God's Word with meekness.
    The word "guile" in I Peter 2:1 is the Greek word dolos. Dolos means to bait or trick someone just as a fisherman uses bait to catch a fish. You cannot hold a desire to bait or trick someone in your heart and receive God's Word.

    The word "hypocrisies" in I Peter 2:1 is the Greek word hupokrisis. Hupokrisis means to play a part as an actor does in a play. It is to say one thing while you are living or thinking something else in your heart. You cannot be a hypocrite in your heart and receive God's Word.
    And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him [Peter]; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. [hupokrisis - hypocrisy]

    The Judean believers had declared publicly that there was no difference between a born again Judean and a born again Gentile. All are equal members of the body of Christ. Yet in practice even Peter separated himself from the Gentiles. Paul reproved this hypocritical practice. In order to receive the greatness of God's Word you must lay aside hypocrisy and receive with meekness the pure milk of God's Word.
    The word "envies" in I Peter 2:1 is the Greek word phthonos. Phthonos means to hold ill will or jealousy toward someone. You cannot hold jealousy in your heart and receive God's Word.

    The words "evil speaking" in I Peter 2:1 is the Greek word katalalia. Katalalia means to speak against someone. You cannot speak evil against someone and receive God's Word.

    Meekness is being "coachable & teachable."

    If a person thinks he knows something he rarely listens when being taught.

    To receive God's Word you must desire the undiluted milk of God's Word the way a newborn baby accepts the milk of his mother.

    You must lay aside all evil intents, jealousy, hypocrisy, attempts to bait or trick another, backbiting, etc. and receive the Word in a pure open heart.

    The engrafted word is the implanted word.

    God plants His Word in our hearts when we are meek.

    Consider the following record. Aaron & Miriam, believers who had received God's Word and were responsible for teaching it to others, began to speak evil of the actions of Moses. They held envy and jealousy in their hearts and expressed these evil intents in that they said "Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us?" They sought to bait Moses with their comments. In contrast Moses was very meek. Moses listened to God with a pure heart. He held no evil toward others in his heart. Look at the way God responded to the meekness of Moses and the malice of Aaron & Miriam:

    Numbers 12:1-8
    And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

    And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

    (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

    And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

    And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

    And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

    My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

    With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

    To receive God's Word we must approach it with meekness.

    Meekness is not letting others walk on you. It is holding no malice, jealousy, evil speaking, baiting, or hypocrisy toward others. It is having a pure teachable heart. God has promised that he will teach the meek His Word.

    Psalm 25:9
    The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
  13. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

    All of those things are true, but you forgot one thing; the men who translated our bibles were not divinely inspired.
  14. LovebirdsFlying

    LovebirdsFlying My husband drew this cartoon of me. Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    United States
    At what point would you say (and by "you" I mean the OP as well as anyone) that using Scripture for doctrine, reproof, and correction enters the category of "beating someone up with a Bible"? We are also counseled to "speak truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15). It has been my observation that too many people who argue smaller points of Scipture, while they *think* that merely "setting someone straight and getting them compliant with the Word of God" is an act of love... well... look at their faces and see this :mad: rather than this. :hug:

    I rather like Jesus' method in the Temple when he was only 12. He recognized that, though He Himself is the highest authority, He would not be taken seriously at His age if he came on with an attitude of "Listen up, because I'm going to tell you what the real deal is, and if you don't listen to me you're in serious error." Instead, He "listened and asked questions." (Luke 2:46) By the time Mary and Joseph came to pick Him up, he had the Temple scholars, :scratch:.

    I think we can win more souls with question marks than with exclamation points, because people don't like to be pounded on.

    Also, although I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I do find it a tad bit annoying when people address worries by cutting and pasting Scripture, and nothing else. :sigh: Those who do not believe the Bible is the Word of God will tune it out like the humming sound of a kitchen appliance, and you're wasting your energy if you keep going on about it.

    And one final thought on instructing in righteousness via Scripture--consider this from Titus 3:

    I've seen entire Sunday school classes bogged down in whether to take Communion from a single cup or from many; how long a woman's hair should be; whether the "c" in church should be capitalized, whether Jonah was swallowed by a whale or a fish, whether that fish coughed him up, burped him up, spit him up or whatever.... :sigh: Verses 10-11 are worded rather harshly, yes, but I understand it to mean don't keep hashing it out when someone believes differently. If correction and reproof don't work after one or two tries, give it a rest. This is why I unsubscribe to threads if there are too many signs that it is ceasing to be discussion, and beginning to be debate.
  15. Criada

    Criada Well-Known Member Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    1 Peter 3:15
    But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

    That is the issue.
    There will be some who accept the Bible and others who don't, but if we are ready to defend our belief with gentleness and respect, it will be far more effective than "Bible bashing"!
  16. TheManeki

    TheManeki Christian Humanist

    Arguments using solely the Bible tend not to convince me anymore -- I need independent real-world corroboration to accept things.

    Maybe I'm just jaded because of when I grew up, hearing various Christians condemn things that, upon observation, don't necessarily seem bad at all -- all kinds of pop/rock music (including contemporary Christian), Dungeons and Dragons, The Last Temptation of Christ, pokemon, Harry Potter, evolution... It's like the boy who cried wolf.

    Or maybe I'm just following in the Baconian tradition where Sola Scriptura reflected both of God's books -- the Bible and the world around us.
  17. Ran77

    Ran77 Senior Contributor

    Is this passage meant to be applied to others or ourselves?

    What I mean is, when I read this I feel that the scriptures are given to me so that I can read them, study them, pray about them and then be instructed and corrected by the Holy Ghost. I don't take this to mean that I should be correcting others with them.

  18. Adammi

    Adammi A Nicene Christian not in CF's Xians Only Club

    True, and just as we wouldn't use Webster's to interpret the Bible because English was not spoken in 1st Century Palestine, so we cannot use our modern paradigm to interpret scripture. What did Paul mean when he said "scripture"? Was he referring to only the Pentateuch or all of the Hebrew Bible? Did he consider his own writing to be scripture? Did he consider the scattered and half yet unwritten New Testament to be scripture?
  19. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    Do you believe that God can protect His Word, so that we can get back to the truth?

    We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God workman that need not to be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

    God has protected His Word from within itself and left principles on how to study it so that no matter what a man may do we can get back to the true Word of God.

    Most people have no clue what these principles are but they are in the word itself and have to be adhered to in order to correct and sift through what tampering man has tried to do to the Word.

    God is the almighty God, He is capable and wise and knows how to protect His word, from those who would try and have tried, and have goofed things up here and there, overall the Word is magnificantly intact compared to all the peoples hands it has gone through.

    If there is a God and He is as great as He says He is and as wise as He says He is, then I believe that He is able to watch over His Word and protect it, and He has.
  20. mysterychristian

    mysterychristian Member

    Well in pauls own writing he says ALL SCRIPTURE, so ALL means ALL SCRIPTURE...

    Paul was an Apostle appointed by God from his mothers womb, an Apostle is a man who speaks for God to God's people, so I do believe that Paul knew what he was doing.

    I Peter 1:21 For the prophecy (God's Word/Scripture) came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Peter was an apostle also, a holy man of God.

    The problem with mankind today ingeneral is there lack of trust in God's Word, most men are not faithful to there own words, they let them selves down all the time, they transfer that distrust into God's Word, but God is Faithful, and Trustable, and His Word is Truth, which is Eternal everlasting Truth.

    It is understandable why men do not fully trust the word becasue it seems to contradict itself at many points, and men have handled it, but the vast majority of me who read it do not read it and handle it as God's Holy Word, they put there emotions, there prejudices, there opinions into it, they have not been taught HOW tostudy the bible, and that the Bible has keys, signposts, and principles on How it is to be studied and understood, all these info is available to know and practically apply to study the bible but NO ONE ever wants to take the time for someone to TEACH it to them, no real desire to know truth.

    This is what I do, this is what I live for, this is the most exciting thing in life, to open the eyes of the understanding of another individual, by systematically laying down scripture after scripture, each scripture can never ever cross or negate the previous, I would be willing to bet that very few people who actually read what I am writing will even want to take the time to learn what I am talking about, but if some one does I would be willing to share it with them.