My Finch Challenge

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Well I gotta get one first, and that ain't gonna happen until I give in and believe the Bible condones it.

Then I'll have to lobby to have the 13th Amendment repealed.

Then I'll have to learn how to treat them and how not to.

Maybe you can give me some pointers? instead of just telling me the Bible condones it?

If you've read your bible, you already know what it says about slaves. It's up to you - follow the OT or follow your conscience.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That's interesting. What exactly is your point? That earlier Americans were bad people? Of are you just stating it as is without a point? I think in your vacuum you present Christianity is both responsible for the starting and ending slavery.

The point was simply to correct a misapprehension with factual information.

 

[AV1611VET]

- follow the OT or follow your conscience.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

If I decide to follow the OT, and interpret it like you do, will you assist me in lobbying to repeal the 13th Amendment?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

If I decide to follow the OT, and interpret it like you do, will you assist me in lobbying to repeal the 13th Amendment?

Already answered in #145.

 

[AV1611VET]

[ deleted ]

 

[Phred]

You aren’t one, right?

In the 1600s you were either a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew. There were like, three atheists and they were very, very quiet. Remember, there was no other concept of how the universe came to be or how the planet came to be or how life began other than "goddidit." The only question was which god or how that god accomplished it. The founders of the United States might very well have been atheists had they known about Evolution. But they did not. So many were deists. They believed that God started things off and then left us alone. This, "slavers were not Christian" is disingenuous and false. The men who brought slaves to the Americas were most certainly Christian. You can't lie your way out of the reprehensible behavior of men who claimed to follow Christ.

 

[AV1611VET]

The men who brought slaves to the Americas were most certainly Christian.

I hope so.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That's interesting. What exactly is your point? That earlier Americans were bad people? Or are you just stating it as is without a point? I think in your vacuum you present Christianity is both responsible for the starting and ending slavery.

You seem to be looking for a conflict. First I'll try to diffuse that, then I think I'll give you the conflict you want.

1. Again, I didn't say christianity *caused* slavery, but rather pointed out (as did others up thread) that christianity was no practical impediment to *preventing* it. This makes christianity, at best, neutral on slavery in early America.

2. Christianity is at best ambiguous on slavery. There are NT statements that seem opposed via the "brotherhood of man" notions like "love you neighbor as yourself" and "neither Greek no Jew", but there are also those commanding subservience to oppressors: "slaves obey your masters, even the cruel ones" and "turn the other cheek" (to get beaten again). That's just the NT. The OT is more explicit about slavery with various laws governing the keeping, purchase, and sale of slaves. There is so much room there you could float a fleet of slave ships and march a coffle through it. And christians did.

I'm not saying christianity *caused* slavery in the Americas, but it did *nothing* to stop it. The claim that started this discussion within this thread that christianity is the great cleanser of slavery from the continent is vacuous without considering how it did nothing to prevent slavery and how often the pro-slavery forces were able to credibly wield the bible in their favor.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It was quoted:

The men who brought slaves to the Americas were most certainly Christian.

It was replied:

I hope so.

"Hope" is *not* response *I* would have had to Phred's fact when I was a Christian. "True, but shameful." seems to be more what most would say.

This was your best post of the thread:

[ deleted ]

 

[AV1611VET]

"Hope" is *not* response *I* would have had to Phred's fact when I was a Christian. "True, but shameful." seems to be more what most would say.

Then it must be because most would give them the benefit of a doubt for being "Christians."

I didn't.

 

[AV1611VET]

This was your best post of the thread:

[ deleted ]

I understand.

 

[DamianWarS]

I'm not saying christianity *caused* slavery in the Americas, but it did *nothing* to stop it. The claim that started this discussion within this thread that christianity is the great cleanser of slavery from the continent is vacuous without considering how it did nothing to prevent slavery and how often the pro-slavery forces were able to credibly wield the bible in their favor.

Christianity is an abstract, and it is not something that does things or does not do things, its cause is carried out by people, so it is people, namely Christians, that did *nothing* to stop it. But I don't think we can fairly say "all Christians" did *nothing*. To start this is presented in an American vacuum but even in that vacuum are you so bold to claim there was no Christian who opposed slavery practices in such a way that are not counted among the did *nothing* group? what is your motivation behind such claims if indeed those are your claims? This an association fallacy.

Christianity itself sees all Christians as slaves under Christ who is our master but Christ is not viewed as an oppressor and the relationship is not seen as oppressive. master and slaves analogies are used often to show that relationship and the bible encourages to serve in the position you are called in with respect not malice or contempt.

For example, Ephesians 6:5-8 reads:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

Christianity was birthed in a time where there was a very strong system of slavery as well as patronage, the latter of which is still a lasting mark on many cultures today. The charge is not to overthrow these systems in protest but rather to serve where you are, and represent Christ in love, this is a charge for the master and for the slave. The master/slave system itself is not innately evil and when we speak of social injustices under these systems we speak more of the mistreatment of people and we have come to broadly associate these images with slavery but even slaves could have high respected positions under their master and be treated well. I think the terms master/slave need to be better qualified or at least understood what exactly is the protest under these systems before we wag our finger at ancient cultures and then use that to discredit Christianity, religion, God, or whatever the agenda is. There is no reason to think all slaves were treated unjustly or that the systems governing them also were unjust.

 

[Phred]

There is no reason to think all slaves were treated unjustly or that the systems governing them also were unjust.

A slave is by definition being treated unjustly. There is no "good slavery." This literal whitewashing of the practice is abhorrent.

 

[AV1611VET]

A slave is by definition being treated unjustly. There is no "good slavery." This literal whitewashing of the practice is abhorrent.

Hmmm ... I like that.

That's why they were "servants," not "slaves."

And to treat a servant as if he/she were a slave would incur God's wrath.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Christianity itself sees all Christians as slaves under Christ who is our master but Christ is not viewed as an oppressor and the relationship is not seen as oppressive. master and slaves analogies are used often to show that relationship and the bible encourages to serve in the position you are called in with respect not malice or contempt.

I find this view... (umm, how can I say this and retain my posting privileges?) ...disturbing and not in the way that makes you think, but rather in the way that makes you walk away. So I did. [NB: I came to CF to discuss pseudoscience of the kind exemplified in the OP, not Jesus or theology, though I do get entangled in some of these ethics discussions.]

 

[dlamberth]

There is no reason to think all slaves were treated unjustly or that the systems governing them also were unjust.

I'm really sorry but your justifying the ownership of Human Beings. Slavery was a system here in America where Human Beings were capital. It was a system where people were abducted from their homes and families were put into forced labor in a far away land to the financial benefit of their owners. They were bought and sold and traded away not unlike with what we do with cars today. Children were separated from parents when sold and women were used as sexual slaves. I don't care how you spin it, which you are doing, Human ownership of other Human Beings in any form is wrong. There are NO just systems in Human ownership. Period!

 

[Strathos]

People can and have used scripture to justify the most twisted and evil ideas. They still do it today, which should be obvious.

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

 

[Occams Barber]

Hmmm ... I like that.

That's why they were "servants," not "slaves."

And to treat a servant as if he/she were a slave would incur God's wrath.

"What's in a name? A rose by any other name..."

OB

 

[DamianWarS]

A slave is by definition being treated unjustly. There is no "good slavery." This literal whitewashing of the practice is abhorrent.

This uncited definition is too one dimensional

 

[DamianWarS]

I find this view... (umm, how can I say this and retain my posting privileges?) ...disturbing and not in the way that makes you think, but rather in the way that makes you walk away. So I did. [NB: I came to CF to discuss pseudoscience of the kind exemplified in the OP, not Jesus or theology, though I do get entangled in some of these ethics discussions.]

It's a matter of your presuppositions