My Finch Challenge

[Hans Blaster]

This uncited definition is too one dimensional

Are you OK with slavery?

[looks up thread]

I guess maybe you are. It would seem that Mr. Phred is adamantly opposed to slavery in all of its form, presumably on moral grounds. He was clearly stating a moral opinion that seems different from yours.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's a matter of your presuppositions

My presuppositions against subservience and oppression. Yeah, you got me there. I'm an American. You may have heard that were big on "Freedom" (capital letter required).

 

[DamianWarS]

I'm really sorry but your justifying the ownership of Human Beings. Slavery was a system here in America where Human Beings were capital. It was a system where people were abducted from their homes and families were put into forced labor in a far away land to the financial benefit of their owners. They were bought and sold and traded away not unlike with what we do with cars today. Children were separated from parents when sold and women were used as sexual slaves. I don't care how you spin it, which you are doing, Human ownership of other Human Beings in any form is wrong. There are NO just systems in Human ownership. Period!

You are superposing this image over the word. I think master/slave relationships are far broader and complex than what you are limiting it to, certainly outside of a modern vacuum. The mistreatment of people is unjust but that doesn't mean every slave has been mistreated. You seem to be commenting on American salvery practices and if so you have my vote, American salavery was unjust. Part of the problem is like Reductio ad Hitlerum. The word is prejudged without actually trying to understand the system it is within. Seems that's that the only depth that's discussed here.

 

[dlamberth]

You are superposing this image over the word. I think master/slave relationships are far broader and complex than what you are limiting it to, certainly outside of a modern vacuum. The mistreatment of people is unjust but that doesn't mean every slave has been mistreated. You seem to be commenting on American salvery practices and if so you have my vote, American salavery was unjust. Part of the problem is like Reductio ad Hitlerum. The word is prejudged without actually trying to understand the system it is within. Seems that's that the only depth that's discussed here.

Human Beings owning other Human Beings. No matter how much a person tries to wiggle out of it with some sort of just slavery system, slavery is always, always wrong under any circumstance. There's nothing to try understand beyond that point. End of story. That anyone finds room and value in any so called "just slavery system" is beyond wrong. I think you can tell by my tone that the whole idea of Human Beings owning other Human Beings, and someone find room to do so is very troubling for me.

 

[DamianWarS]

Are you OK with slavery?

[looks up thread]

I guess maybe you are. It would seem that Mr. Phred is adamantly opposed to slavery in all of its form, presumably on moral grounds. He was clearly stating a moral opinion that seems different from yours.

You are boxing me into a specific idea of slavery. I am against the mistreatment of people and I think slavery practices are incompatible with modern societies. You seem to want to label me something im not. Much (if not all) of ancient world used various forms of salvery (including "slave races") and this certainly is not a biblical invention.

We are not so egalitarian as you may suppose today and many are generationally trapped in poverty and their options limited but we don't care who is struggling behind the counter of McDs all we want is our happy meal. America's agricultural labour force is severely marred dependant upon illegals that are underpaid and mistreated. This is a social misjustice that no one is speaking out against because we want our cheap strawberries. What do you think would happen to the livelihood of these illegals and their families if they were all deported tomorrow? What do you think would happen to the agriculture enonmy? What do you think would have to costs at grocery stores?

These are poor excuses to continue a flawed system but ancient cultures had very different rules where individuals can be protected in a household and cared for where outside their options limited. In fact some of these ancient systems would look at the American system as a social injust as people are individually driven and no longer community driven where all classes are benifited.

The issue is about treatment of people not what labels we give them or what our modern laws say. Morality isn't different but the currency is different and slavery is simply incompatible today but in an ancient vacuum slavery doesn't have to mean injustice. It certainly did in a lot of cases but systems can be designed with social justice for all even in a master/slave system.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You are boxing me into a specific idea of slavery. I am against the mistreatment of people and I think slavery practices are incompatible with modern societies. You seem to want to label me something im not. Much (if not all) of ancient world used various forms of salvery (including "slave races") and this certainly is not a biblical invention.

There are and were many varieties of slavery. Some were and are worse than others. Does that not mean we can be repelled by all of them?

I've never said any form of slavery was "biblical invention". I don't think anyone on this thread has either.

I'm glad you are against mistreatment of people, but here's a question you need to answer for yourself, not for us. I don't need the answer. Why do you seem to feel a need to excuse certain forms and eras of slavery?

 

[DamianWarS]

Human Beings owning other Human Beings. No matter how much a person tries to wiggle out of it with some sort of just slavery system, slavery is always, always wrong under any circumstance. There's nothing to try understand beyond that point. End of story. That anyone finds room and value in any so called "just slavery system" is beyond wrong. I think you can tell by my tone that the whole idea of Human Beings owning other Human Beings, and someone find room to do so is very troubling for me.

Ownership "rules" have a different mindsets in ancient cultures. There is a head of the household and under that household is perceived as the property of the head. These are things, animals, slaves, children, wives and all under the household. This "property" label however doesn't mean people are mistreated but in a healthy perspective it means all in the household is under the care of the head. Patreon/client systems this is normal as the "master" offers something those under them can not get for themselves like food, shelter, and protection, in return they offer their services. Much of the world still operates like this it's just not under a master/slave label. It seems this conversation is being dictated by judgment of labels not actions.

 

[VirOptimus]

Ownership "rules" have a different mindsets in ancient cultures. There is a head of the household and under that household is perceived as the property of the head. These are things, animals, slaves, children, wives and all under the household. This "property" label however doesn't mean people are mistreated but in a healthy perspective it means all in the household is under the care of the head. Patreon/client systems this is normal as the "master" offers something those under them can not get for themselves like food, shelter, and protection, in return they offer their services. Much if the world still operates like this it's just not under a master/slave label. It seems this conversation is being dictated by judgment of labels not actions.

Why are you defending slavery?

 

[DamianWarS]

Why are you defending slavery?

I am defending the protection and care of people within a heiarchy. I'll stop using labels people can't get past.

 

[VirOptimus]

I am defending the protection and care of people within a heiarchy. I'll stop using labels people can't get past.

You are doing it again, defending slavery. Quite horrible stance imo.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you OK with slavery?

No.

Slavery is Satan's cheap imitation for servanthood.

And servanthood is an endeavor that even Jesus took part in.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

[Phred]

This uncited definition is too one dimensional

Some things deserve only one dimension.

 

[dlamberth]

I am defending the protection and care of people within a heiarchy.

How about just the protection and care of people as Human Beings.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

This uncited definition is too one dimensional

Can you provide a definition of "slave (noun)" which does not include ownership of one human being by another?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why are you defending slavery?

Is it Biblical?

 

[AV1611VET]

I think you can tell by my tone that the whole idea of Human Beings owning other Human Beings, and someone find room to do so is very troubling for me.

Just so you know:

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Those "finding room to do so" are your buddies who push the idea that slavery is Biblical.

Paul never called himself a slave.

 

[VirOptimus]

Is it Biblical?

Well, parts of the bible do support slavery.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Paul never called himself a slave.

True. However, in Romans he introduces himself as a δοῦλος Χριστοῦ. Please tell us, what did those words mean at the time Paul was writing? What, exactly, was a δοῦλος?

 

[AV1611VET]

True. However, in Romans he introduces himself as a δοῦλος Χριστοῦ. Please tell us, what did those words mean at the time Paul was writing? What, exactly, was a δοῦλος?

You found his letter to the Romans!? was it lying next to the Shroud of Turin?

I'll set the KJB aside and run your words through Google translate and see what comes out; but before I do, I'm going to guess it says "slave."

But I could be wrong -- we'll see.

Okay ... Google comes up with nothing.

However, DeepL Translator: The world's most accurate translator, comes up with:

1. Christ's servant
2. slave of Christ

What's your question?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You found his letter to the Romans!? was it lying next to the Shroud of Turin?

I'll set the KJB aside and run your words through Google translate and see what comes out; but before I do, I'm going to guess it says "slave."

But I could be wrong -- we'll see.

Okay ... Google comes up with nothing.

However, DeepL Translator: The world's most accurate translator, comes up with:

1. Christ's servant
2. slave of Christ

What's your question?

It really was a simple question which you don't need to dance around - at the time Paul was writing, what did "doulos" mean?