My fiancé doesn't want to go to church with me.

[tall73]

Yes. Actually, chances are he will be worse about it...and about discounting how you feel about it. Imo, this is a huge warning bell and you should seek pastoral counsel immediately. Do not wait for pre-marital counsel - go for it now, before it's too close to the wedding date. I also urge you to seek out a program on marriage preparation (imo, the pastors who officiate do not do a very good job at this).

I agree that waiting until the date is nearly upon them would be a mistake.

I can see both positive and negative to pastors who officiate doing the counseling. Some just take a cursory approach, especially if they were selected for their personal relationship to the couple.

Also, if the couple has a strong relationship on a personal level they may not want to admit to certain important details that still need discussing.

On the other hand, a pastor who knows them well and has been functioning with them in the church already would have some knowledge base of their personalities, possible issues, general approaches to problems, etc. and would have experience imparting spiritual concepts to them already. They may additionally recognize their pastor's spiritual authority or spiritual life, as they have interacted with the pastor as well. Therefore they may be open to instruction from their pastor.

Also, the pastor does have the option of informing them that they do not feel comfortable endorsing such a union if major issues come up. This can be quite awkward, but it can also force the couple to look at serious issues. They can always get someone else to do it. However, it does for them to confront the fact that someone who they trusted enough to ask to marry them thinks there are some major red flags.

 

[Ana the Ist]

a. A counseling environment provides a setting where he is more likely to discuss things openly. Right now he is saying not to make it personal, and is not really saying why he doesn't want to go. Likely the objection to pre-marital counseling is that he knows he would have to talk about things there.

b. It could give her more perspective on what to expect in the marriage. Then she can better decide if she wants to pursue that course.

c. While someone who doesn't know the husband would have less personal influence, an outside opinion is sometimes viewed differently. And someone who can set boundaries for a conversation could limit some of the attempts to make it sound like the issue is not a valid concern.

Is it more likely that he'll talk about this with a stranger? I dunno...I wonder how many counselors would agree.

All I'm saying is that not going to counseling isn't necessarily a problem. The problem is that he doesn't want to go to church. It's entirely possible that even with counseling, even if he decides to go to church afterwards, he may come to the same place a year, two years, three years down the road. What then? More counseling?

She needs to decide if this is a deal-breaker for herself. Even if he went to church with her for the next five years...he may decide not to for the rest of his life. Either she can accept that or she can't. That's really what she needs to figure out.

 

[mkgal1]

I absolutely agree. It's not counseling he needs....she needs to come to terms with what she can and cannot control (his church attendance is something she ought not even *try* control) and what she's willing to accept or not.

 

[RDKirk]

I absolutely agree. It's not counseling he needs....she needs to come to terms with what she can and cannot control (his church attendance is something she ought not even *try* control) and what she's willing to accept or not.

She needs to come to terms why he won't go to counseling with her. Unlike promising to go to church, it's not even a long-term commitment. If he won't go with her to counselling just to make her happy now, he's not ever going to do anything in their marriage just to make her happy.

 

[mkgal1]

She needs to come to terms why he won't go to counseling with her. Unlike promising to go to church, it's not even a long-term commitment. If he won't go with her to counselling just to make her happy now, he's not ever going to do anything in their marriage just to make her happy.

Counseling is more personal (and more of a commitment) than going to church---isn't it? I can go to church---sit in a pew---and not have to open up and share personal things with anyone.

I don't think anything in marriage ought to be done out of "just making them happy". I do think there's obviously some barrier to genuine communication (whether it's a judgmental attitude or just not wishing to get into any confrontation)...and *that* will not work in marriage.

 

[mkgal1]

Maybe the topic could be approached more like, "Could you tell me what it is about your church experience that makes you not want to go any more?" (I hope I have it correct---he'd been going before....right? I haven't gone back to re-read the OP). If he refuses to talk individually (and refuses pre-wedding counseling).....I agree that is NOT a good sign.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I don't think anything in marriage ought to be done out of "just making them happy".

I think I agree with RDKirk on this one. There are lots of things happily married couples do for one another just to make the other happy. For example, I don't really like sushi, my husband loves it. I'll go out for sushi with him just to make him happy.

If someone who is engaged to be married doesn't want to do things for the other just to make her happy, it's an indication that there's a lack of affection on his part. Especially at this stage in the relationship, he should be wanting to make her happy. IMO.

I agree with everyone that his refusal to attend pre-marital counseling is a bad sign, too.

 

[RDKirk]

Counseling is more personal (and more of a commitment) than going to church---isn't it? I can go to church---sit in a pew---and not have to open up and share personal things with anyone.

A man can go through counseling pretty much the same way. But it's a much shorter amount of time. It's a long-term commitment that a man is usually much more afraid of...and this guy refuses to accommodate even a small promise of time.

I don't think anything in marriage ought to be done out of "just making them happy".

There are a lot of things done in a marriage for no other reason than to make one's partner happy...and that's the way it ought to be.

"Love is when another person's happiness is essential to your own." -- Robert Heinlein

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Maybe the topic could be approached more like, "Could you tell me what it is about your church experience that makes you not want to go any more?" (I hope I have it correct---he'd been going before....right? I haven't gone back to re-read the OP). If he refuses to talk individually (and refuses pre-wedding counseling).....I agree that is NOT a good sign.

Why *must* he even explain why he doesn't want to? I think it it's folly to attempt to expect that he will have an explanation that he feels he can give that will even help. For whatever reason it is something he really doesn't want to do. It may not be something counseling will make him want to do, so we are beck to her deciding if it is a deal breaker.

Additionally some people are not fans of counseling. Something about inviting others to meddle in person relations just feels wrong to some of us. I know it is something I'd refuse to go to.

 

[mkgal1]

I think I agree with RDKirk on this one. There are lots of things happily married couples do for one another just to make the other happy. For example, I don't really like sushi, my husband loves it. I'll go out for sushi with him just to make him happy.

If someone who is engaged to be married doesn't want to do things for the other just to make her happy, it's an indication that there's a lack of affection on his part. Especially at this stage in the relationship, he should be wanting to make her happy. IMO.

I have a bit of an aversion to that phrase, "just to make them happy" and think of a particular dynamic that I've seen play out. It's when there's this continual trade-off of each spouse doing something they really don't want to do-- and they make it known how much they hate it---but they can make the claim, "I did it to make you happy". Then the roles reverse when they wish to do something (and the other doesn't). I just don't see the benefit of making the other go through something they really prefer not to do (which is different than *choosing* to do something--like going for sushi--and, even though that wouldn't be something you did on your own, you enjoy making your spouse happy).

 

[mkgal1]

Why *must* he even explain why he doesn't want to?

Because by not trying to explain or communicate in any way about it ......it's driving a wedge between them (IMO).

I think it it's folly to attempt to expect that he will have an explanation that he feels he can give that will even help. For whatever reason it is something he really doesn't want to do. It may not be something counseling will make him want to do, so we are back to her deciding if it is a deal breaker.

Additionally some people are not fans of counseling. Something about inviting others to meddle in person relations just feels wrong to some of us. I know it is something I'd refuse to go to.

I don't think he has to come up with a reason.....but just being open to talk about (which means she has to be willing to accept what he says) could help their relationship. Faith is something that changes over the years, and it's always a possibility that our spouses can hold different beliefs after marriage. In the OP, she'd even said the two of them had both stopped going to church---now, for some reason---it's become important to her again (but, obviously, not him).

I agree about the counseling----I'd say, "not just *some*, but *lots* are not fans". I don't think it'd do too much good (or be too productive) for him to just go and sit there, either. In order for counseling to be worthwhile....*both* people have to be wanting improvement/growth.

 

[RDKirk]

I have a bit of an aversion to that phrase, "just to make them happy" and think of a particular dynamic that I've seen play out. It's when there's this continual trade-off of each spouse doing something they really don't want to do-- and they make it known how much they hate it---but they can make the claim, "I did it to make you happy". Then the roles reverse when they wish to do something (and the other doesn't). I just don't see the benefit of making the other go through something they really prefer not to do (which is different than *choosing* to do something--like going for sushi--and, even though that wouldn't be something you did on your own, you enjoy making your spouse happy).

It's not going to be likely over the course of half a century or more for each person to be delighted to do everything the other person wants to do or wants done. So either both will do lots of things just to make the other happy, or both will spend a lot of time being frustrated...or alone.

Over the cource of half a century, interests and abilities will change, and so will likes and dislikes.

My wife loves cooking and food shows. I love science fictions. I'll sit with her through some cooking shows and she'll sit with me through some science fiction. The fact that we both know we "sacrifice" for each other is part of being in a loving marriage.

 

[mkgal1]

It's not going to be likely over the course of half a century or more for each person to be delighted to do everything the other person wants to do or wants done. So either both will do lots of things just to make the other happy, or both will spend a lot of time being frustrated...or alone.

Over the cource of half a century, interests and abilities will change, and so will likes and dislikes.

My wife loves cooking and food shows. I love science fictions. I'll sit with her through some cooking shows and she'll sit with me through some science fiction. The fact that we both know we "sacrifice" for each other is part of being in a loving marriage.

Right.....I agree (my husband and I do the same thing.....different genres, but the same idea). I have no problem with that. I think what I'm talking about is a bit more exaggerated than that (and with the whole marriage characterized as a sacrifice)---the idea that marriage is more about a dirge march, instead of joy---that's what I'm opposed to.

Two people being miserable (one--because they don't want to be there, and the other--because their spouse is miserable and making it known) doesn't seem like a way of walking through life. There's a difference between *choosing* to do something, and doing something out of guilt/compulsion. It's also much more enjoyable for *both* people if choices are made out of each person's own volition. It's still my choice....my desire....to sit with my husband even though he may be watching something I wouldn't chose to watch if I were alone. It's about priorities. Me being with him would be more important to me than what's on television.

Anyway.....I'm probably de-railing the thread....but I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because by not trying to explain or communicate in any way about it ......it's driving a wedge between them (IMO).


I don't think he has to come up with a reason.....but just being open to talk about (which means she has to be willing to accept what he says) could help their relationship. Faith is something that changes over the years, and it's always a possibility that our spouses can hold different beliefs after marriage. In the OP, she'd even said the two of them had both stopped going to church---now, for some reason---it's become important to her again (but, obviously, not him).

I agree about the counseling----I'd say, "not just *some*, but *lots* are not fans". I don't think it'd do too much good (or be too productive) for him to just go and sit there, either. In order for counseling to be worthwhile....*both* people have to be wanting improvement/growth.

Well said mkgal...communication is one of the foundations of any good marriage/relationship. I don't know enough about the guy to say if his lack of willingness to discuss this issue is uncharacteristic of him or not. There are many many men out there who simply have a hard time discussing intimate thoughts/feelings they have. If he's not one of these guys though... she might consider the reason he's not discussing this because he's afraid she won't go through with the marriage, or even leave him altogether.

I also don't think that going to some sort of couples therapy should fall under the category of "things to do to make your spouse happy." Each participant has to want to be there to be able to get any benefits from it...merely showing up and saying "well at least I tried" isn't likely to make her anymore happy about the situation. If anything, I think it would just make her more frustrated and exacerbate things.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I have a bit of an aversion to that phrase, "just to make them happy" and think of a particular dynamic that I've seen play out. It's when there's this continual trade-off of each spouse doing something they really don't want to do-- and they make it known how much they hate it---but they can make the claim, "I did it to make you happy". Then the roles reverse when they wish to do something (and the other doesn't). I just don't see the benefit of making the other go through something they really prefer not to do (which is different than *choosing* to do something--like going for sushi--and, even though that wouldn't be something you did on your own, you enjoy making your spouse happy).

I can see your point. When people keep score and it's a quid pro quo kind of thing that a different story, though. That's not really doing it to make your spouse happy, that's doing it to get something for yourself.

I think what RDKirk and I were talking about was choosing to do it because you enjoy making your spouse happy.

If a person doesn't take joy in making his or her partner happy, then I think it indicates a lack of affection.

My husband doesn't particularly like going to church, either. For that matter, neither do I. I've been burned by too many churches. But sometimes I get a hankering to go and he goes too because he knows it makes me happy. I think sitting through a couple hours of church isn't really that much to ask.

 

[DZoolander]

I'm really trying hard to stay away from any sort of discussion about the individual merits of each position - as I'm someone that (apart from a few Christmas services and weddings/funerals) hasn't been to church since around 1981. I can pretty well imagine what his objections to going to church are - and I'd probably support his position.

The reason I don't want to go down that road is because it (IMHO) is irrelevant to the subject at hand - which is that she's entitled to want whatever she may want in a spouse. If she wants a holy roller and that will help her long term happiness/fulfillment - then by all means - go get a holy roller. My opinion of those people ought have no bearing on whether her quest for one or what she values is valid.

...and that's what it really does boil down to. She's entitled to want whatever she may want. The question then becomes - is *THAT* this guy - and if not - is she prepared to make that concession? I mean, really, if the guy thinks church is a bunch of hubbub and a gathering of gossipy hypocrites void of any relation to God - does she really want him going knowing that's his attitude?

Personally - I think that's the big issue she needs to answer for herself. I mean, if I were a churchgoing person, and my wife detested church, I can't see what sort of solace and/or comfort I would get if she sat next to me every Sunday morning and I knew she was dreading it/not wanting to be there. So the sacrifice would be on my part.

The bigger thing that I find bizarre, however, is that he characterizes his aversion to church as "personal". Counseling/schmounceling - if he can't be honest about his feelings about something as straightforward as why he doesn't want to go to church without guarding it away as something "personal" (i.e., not needing to be discussed) - how does that bode for other areas of life? There really aren't any "personal" things I have separate and apart from my wife.

Now, there may be things that I don't like to talk about, because I don't think I can properly explain my feelings... For example - I didn't do a lot of talking about my feelings when I lost my parents... It's not because she wouldn't have wanted to hear...it's just that I thought the difference in experience (she hasn't lost hers yet) would be difficult to overcome in explaining it. As much as I like to explain things - that's one thing I didn't want to explain or try and articulate.

But, I don't see "why I don't want to go to church" as being the same type of thing...and even with that - it's not that I wouldn't have tried to articulate it if it became an issue. I just didn't want to - and she never pressed beyond what I was comfortable showing. It wasn't, however, "too personal" of a thing to talk about. So, that gives me pause that he can't/won't talk to her about it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm really trying hard to stay away from any sort of discussion about the individual merits of each position - as I'm someone that (apart from a few Christmas services and weddings/funerals) hasn't been to church since around 1981. I can pretty well imagine what his objections to going to church are - and I'd probably support his position.

The reason I don't want to go down that road is because it (IMHO) is irrelevant to the subject at hand - which is that she's entitled to want whatever she may want in a spouse. If she wants a holy roller and that will help her long term happiness/fulfillment - then by all means - go get a holy roller. My opinion of those people ought have no bearing on whether her quest for one or what she values is valid.

...and that's what it really does boil down to. She's entitled to want whatever she may want. The question then becomes - is *THAT* this guy - and if not - is she prepared to make that concession? I mean, really, if the guy thinks church is a bunch of hubbub and a gathering of gossipy hypocrites void of any relation to God - does she really want him going knowing that's his attitude?

Personally - I think that's the big issue she needs to answer for herself. I mean, if I were a churchgoing person, and my wife detested church, I can't see what sort of solace and/or comfort I would get if she sat next to me every Sunday morning and I knew she was dreading it/not wanting to be there. So the sacrifice would be on my part.

The bigger thing that I find bizarre, however, is that he characterizes his aversion to church as "personal". Counseling/schmounceling - if he can't be honest about his feelings about something as straightforward as why he doesn't want to go to church without guarding it away as something "personal" (i.e., not needing to be discussed) - how does that bode for other areas of life? There really aren't any "personal" things I have separate and apart from my wife.

Now, there may be things that I don't like to talk about, because I don't think I can properly explain my feelings... For example - I didn't do a lot of talking about my feelings when I lost my parents... It's not because she wouldn't have wanted to hear...it's just that I thought the difference in experience (she hasn't lost hers yet) would be difficult to overcome in explaining it. As much as I like to explain things - that's one thing I didn't want to explain or try and articulate.

But, I don't see "why I don't want to go to church" as being the same type of thing...and even with that - it's not that I wouldn't have tried to articulate it if it became an issue. I just didn't want to - and she never pressed beyond what I was comfortable showing. It wasn't, however, "too personal" of a thing to talk about. So, that gives me pause that he can't/won't talk to her about it.

One "personal" reason he doesn't want to attend church which he may not want to share with her is....he's lost his faith/belief in god. Seeing as how she's more religious and concerned with being involved in church, he may be afraid she'd leave him if that's the case. Now, knowing that it's an important thing to her, it would be stupid of him to keep such a thing secret and marry her while leading her to believe he still has faith and believes in god...but love can make you do stupid things.

Now, hopefully that isn't the case...as it would force her to decide something much more difficult than "can I live the rest of my life with a man who doesn't want to go to church?" It would be a deceptive thing to do, and very wrong of him, but nine years is a long time. It's not an easy thing to walk away from regardless of the reasons. If his lack of faith/belief is something new to him, he could be genuinely scared that he wouldn't get to marry the lovely christian woman he's loved for the past nine years.

If I were her, I'd at least ask him if he's lost his faith/belief....just to be sure that isn't the situation. He may not want to discuss his reasons for not attending... but I would imagine if he still believes it's going to be something he can tell her without hesitation.

 

[mkgal1]

I can see your point. When people keep score and it's a quid pro quo kind of thing that a different story, though. That's not really doing it to make your spouse happy, that's doing it to get something for yourself.

I think what RDKirk and I were talking about was choosing to do it because you enjoy making your spouse happy.

If a person doesn't take joy in making his or her partner happy, then I think it indicates a lack of affection.

My husband doesn't particularly like going to church, either. For that matter, neither do I. I've been burned by too many churches. But sometimes I get a hankering to go and he goes too because he knows it makes me happy. I think sitting through a couple hours of church isn't really that much to ask.

ITA....the trade-off that's not done out of a sincere desire to please is NOT really making a spouse happy. You're right.

I just think that there needs to be the freedom for each spouse to say, "no...I absolutely don't want to do that" and be able to choose the things they'd like to do in order to make their spouse happy (that way it's sincere). Does that make sense? In the context of this thread---it seems as if he's being judged only by this issue (and he may be resisting counseling for fear that the goal of counseling would be to get him to church).

 

[mkgal1]

One "personal" reason he doesn't want to attend church which he may not want to share with her is....he's lost his faith/belief in god. Seeing as how she's more religious and concerned with being involved in church, he may be afraid she'd leave him if that's the case. Now, knowing that it's an important thing to her, it would be stupid of him to keep such a thing secret and marry her while leading her to believe he still has faith and believes in god...but love can make you do stupid things.

Now, hopefully that isn't the case...as it would force her to decide something much more difficult than "can I live the rest of my life with a man who doesn't want to go to church?" It would be a deceptive thing to do, and very wrong of him, but nine years is a long time. It's not an easy thing to walk away from regardless of the reasons. If his lack of faith/belief is something new to him, he could be genuinely scared that he wouldn't get to marry the lovely christian woman he's loved for the past nine years.

If I were her, I'd at least ask him if he's lost his faith/belief....just to be sure that isn't the situation. He may not want to discuss his reasons for not attending... but I would imagine if he still believes it's going to be something he can tell her without hesitation.

I agree. It could even be that what he's hearing at church is causing him to doubt and he'd prefer to cling on to what faith he has also. IOW.....it may not be God that he's lost faith in, but the church. She'll never know, though, without him opening up.

 

[RDKirk]

I just think that there needs to be the freedom for each spouse to say, "no...I absolutely don't want to do that" and be able to choose the things they'd like to do in order to make their spouse happy (that way it's sincere). Does that make sense?

Not really. If all my wife did for me was what she wanted to do instead of what I wanted, that's not really for me, that's for her. It's perfectly okay for her to do things for herself, but not to pretend it was for me and expect me to be grateful.

In the context of this thread---it seems as if he's being judged only by this issue (and he may be resisting counseling for fear that the goal of counseling would be to get him to church).

All we have to go on is what we've been told. From all we have been told, this is a guy who does not make concessions on things important to his future wife. Marriage is a matter of constant concession-making between two people. If a husband never makes concessions--and there are many such husbands--that's only going to create a resentful wife.

Now, maybe he does concede on a great many things that the OP is just not really telling us about. And maybe it's only that he concedes on irrelevant matters and not the things deeply significant to her (which is also something a lot of husbands do, often deliberately).