My experience...Ken Ham and YEC.

[ChetSinger]

This whole YEC thing is driving me right to becoming an out-and-out atheist/antitheist.

Hello. After reading your post, my first thought was: good grief, why?

Our faith rests on the work of Christ, not on any particular interpretation of Genesis 1. I myself am pretty much a YEC, but I acknowledge that my conclusions regarding Genesis 1 may be wrong. And if so, God's not going to hold it against me, and in the resurrection I'll understand it fully.

And why are you discussing your crisis of faith in a forum populated by people who are eager to destroy it? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to discuss it in the Christian Origins forum, where you have brothers and sisters who hold a wide variety of origins beliefs (OEC, YEC, TE, etc.) while keeping faith in Christ?

My suggestion is: get close to Jesus himself, and accept that Christians have a wide variety of origins beliefs. For now we see in a mirror, dimly. But eventually we will see face to face.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Pardon my open honesty.

I welcome honesty. Yet, you for one requires that the Bible should not be trusted for instance as God's word (if I am accurately presenting your position); but you accept Christ as your Savior. Is it a case of intellectually dishonesty to claim some of what the Bible says and to deny some?

I am referring specifically to those who originate and propagate it.

You said:
I can relate to that, it's a burr in my posterior as well. If one has to so overtly misrepresent and lie to justify a belief in God, that doesn't represent the faith very well. Even OEC and GAP theory requires intellectual dishonesty.

So as you see you are saying that OEC and GAP theory are intellectually dishonest positions, not specifying the ones who originate and propagate it.

I'm not quite sure. Would you provide a definition of what you refer to as intellectual dishonesty, then we can compare.

I would say that intellectual dishonesty is when someone knows something to be true but denies it and supports the counter-position anyway.

 

[RickG]

And why are you discussing your crisis of faith in a forum populated by people who are eager to destroy it? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to discuss it in the Christian Origins forum, where you have brothers and sisters who hold a wide variety of origins beliefs (OEC, YEC, TE, etc.) while keeping faith in Christ?

Actually for me, it is the OEC, YEC, TE, etc. that trouble me the most.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Actually for me, it is the OEC, YEC, TE, etc. that trouble me the most.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Dizredux]

Originally Posted by Ryukil

This whole YEC thing is driving me right to becoming an out-and-out atheist/antitheist.

Hello. After reading your post, my first thought was: good grief, why?

I went through similar experiences. When I discovered that I was being deliberately, willfully and with intent to deceive lied to by some YEC Christians, it came very close to causing me to totally lose my faith. It was not the only reason but this dishonesty by people I was supposed to be able to trust (Christians) was a real blow and had a major impact on me.

I have heard so many stories of people driven away from Christianity by the dishonesty of some Christians and I sincerely feel that this kind of thing is very toxic to Christianity.

Dizredux

 

[ChetSinger]

Actually for me, it is the OEC, YEC, TE, etc. that trouble me the most.

Why? My advice is: accept that people come to different conclusions. Myself, I think it's enough to believe that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", and in the need for redemption through the work of Christ.

We Christians can be a diverse lot on many issues. A brief visit to the GT forum should be enough to reach that conclusion.

 

[RickG]

Care to elaborate?

Two words, "intellectual dishonesty", not to mention out-right dishonesty especially in the YEC literature.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Two words, "intellectual dishonesty", not to mention out-right dishonesty especially in the YEC literature.

Ok, so how do you feel TE is intellectually dishonest for instance?

 

[Dizredux]

Actually for me, it is the OEC, YEC, TE, etc. that trouble me the most.

Just curious, how does TE (Theistic Evolutionist) bother you? Possibly a typing error?

Dizredux

 

[RickG]

Why? My advice is: accept that people come to different conclusions. Myself, I think it's enough to believe that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", and in the need for redemption through the work of Christ.

I have no problem with anyone's belief in a young earth, global flood, etc. What I have a problem with is the use of misrepresented science to support those beliefs.

We Christians can be a diverse lot on many issues. A brief visit to the GT forum should be enough to reach that conclusion.

Any specific threads you recommend? And keep in mind, it is not the atheist here that cause me to question some beliefs of Christianity, it's the Christians with the "my interpretation only" attitude is the only correct interpretation.

 

[ChetSinger]

Originally Posted by Ryukil

​

I went through similar experiences. When I discovered that I was being deliberately, willfully and with intent to deceive lied to by some YEC Christians, it came very close to causing me to totally lose my faith. It was not the only reason but this dishonesty by people I was supposed to be able to trust (Christians) was a real blow and had a major impact on me.

I have heard so many stories of people driven away from Christianity by the dishonesty of some Christians and I sincerely feel that this kind of thing is very toxic to Christianity.

Dizredux

So are you going to leave the faith because Ron Wyatt said he discovered Sodom and Gomorrah, when he probably didn't? Or because you can probably collect a barrel's worth of "nails from the cross" from various European towns?

Let's face it: people who profit from the faith go as far back as the apostle Paul's time. I'm mostly a YEC, but that's just me. Afaik it's OK to be a TE, or OEC. I see nothing in the NT that says we'll be judged according to our origins beliefs.

 

[RickG]

Just curious, how does TE (Theistic Evolutionist) bother you? Possibly a typing error?

Dizredux

Correct, Actually TE doesn't really bother me. I only included that because it was part of the quote.

 

[RickG]

So are you going to leave the faith because Ron Wyatt said he discovered Sodom and Gomorrah, when he probably didn't? Or because you can probably collect a barrel's worth of "nails from the cross" from various European towns?

I think Ron Wyatt is a very good example of out right dishonesty. I believe AiG even warns about his exploits.

 

[Oncedeceived]

So are you going to leave the faith because Ron Wyatt said he discovered Sodom and Gomorrah, when he probably didn't? Or because you can probably collect a barrel's worth of "nails from the cross" from various European towns?

Let's face it: people who profit from the faith go as far back as the apostle Paul's time. I'm mostly a YEC, but that's just me. Afaik it's OK to be a TE, or OEC. I see nothing in the NT that says we'll be judged according to our origins beliefs.

It went back farther than that:

Mark 11:16: And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

 

[ChetSinger]

I have no problem with anyone's belief in a young earth, global flood, etc. What I have a problem with is the use of misrepresented science to support those beliefs.

OK. There may be actual dishonesty, or wishful thinking, or misapplied assumptions, or honest mistakes. Or, perhaps some of your own conclusions are wrong. Might that be a possibility?

Any specific threads you recommend? And keep in mind, it is not the atheist here that cause me to question some beliefs of Christianity, it's the Christians with the "my interpretation only" attitude is the only correct interpretation.

Have a look around yourself. You'll see. Nevertheless, they're brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Correct, Actually TE doesn't really bother me. I only included that because it was part of the quote.

Who were you quoting?

 

[ChetSinger]

I think Ron Wyatt is a very good example of out right dishonesty. I believe AiG even warns about his exploits.

I haven't been there for a while, but think they do, too. Neither of us are abandoning the faith because of him, are we?

 

[ChetSinger]

It went back farther than that:

Mark 11:16: And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

Yeah, forgot about that.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yeah, forgot about that.

It probably went back to Abraham's time if we only knew.

 

[RickG]

OK. There may be actual dishonesty, or wishful thinking, or misapplied assumptions, or honest mistakes. Or, perhaps some of your own conclusions are wrong. Might that be a possibility?

When I can be shown to be wrong, I have no problem openly acknowledging that. However, things I post and describe problems with here, concern my actual academic background and experience. I tend to say out of discussions for which I have little experience or understanding. Like many of the YEC's here, I am not an example of Dunning-Kruger.

Have a look around yourself. You'll see. Nevertheless, they're brothers and sisters in Christ.

As previously mentioned, I have no problem with anyone's religious beliefs. I do have a problem with the misrepresentation of specific physical sciences with which I am more than familiar.