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My Ex-nihilo Challenge

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Nathan Poe

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You wanna discuss the accuracy of Bible prophecies, Quatona?

Okay --- here we go.

Accuracy = 100% --- case closed --- what's to discuss?

Is that counting the sulf-fulfilling ones? Or the ones which were mythologized and in some cases, completely fictionalized, after the fact so that they would appear to square up with prophecy?

Because if you're not, then we have no choice but to toss out almost every prophecy regarding Jesus -- unquestionably the most mythologized figure in human history. And that brings your "100%" figure down substantially.

Of course, if you've got the guts to put the life of Christ under a microscope and look at it objectively, we can discuss this. My own "prophecy" is that you'll tap-dance around it, drop some vague nonsense about "refusing to answer blasphemous questions," and /thread out with your tail between your legs.

I'm calling you out, Tex. :cool:
 
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AV1611VET

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Is that counting the sulf-fulfilling ones? Or the ones which were mythologized and in some cases, completely fictionalized, after the fact so that they would appear to square up with prophecy?

Because if you're not, then we have no choice but to toss out almost every prophecy regarding Jesus -- unquestionably the most mythologized figure in human history. And that brings your "100%" figure down substantially.

Of course, if you've got the guts to put the life of Christ under a microscope and look at it objectively, we can discuss this. My own "prophecy" is that you'll tap-dance around it, drop some vague nonsense about "refusing to answer blasphemous questions," and /thread out with your tail between your legs.

I'm calling you out, Tex. :cool:

Calling these prophecies "sulf-fulfilling" [sic] are a dime a dozen.

As I have pointed out before, anyone could have read those prophecies and then gone out of their way to fulfill one or two --- but the real trick?

Try and prevent them from happening. :thumbsup:
 
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Eudaimonist

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Try and prevent them from happening. :thumbsup:

Okay, which prophesies can we use as a test that have not yet been fulfilled? And what date shall we use to conclude that they haven't been fulfilled?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Nathan Poe

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Calling these prophecies "sulf-fulfilling" [sic] are a dime a dozen.

As I have pointed out before, anyone could have read those prophecies and then gone out of their way to fulfill one or two --- but the real trick?

Try and prevent them from happening. :thumbsup:


And so the tap-dancing begins -- my own prophecy is at 100% so far.

C'mon, AV -- no guts, no glory.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Calling these prophecies "sulf-fulfilling" [sic] are a dime a dozen.

As I have pointed out before, anyone could have read those prophecies and then gone out of their way to fulfill one or two --- but the real trick?

Try and prevent them from happening. :thumbsup:
The only prophecy we can even begin to check upon would be the reinstallment of Israel, and it doesn't get any more self-fulfilling than that. Even the High Comissioner of Palestine, Herbert Samuel, said - in a memorandum to the British parliament listing reasons why the creation of an independent Jewish state would be a good idea, no less - that "...the ancient prophecies are deeply ingrained in the Protestant world, and there exists a strong desire to see them fulfilled".*


* quoted from memory.
 
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Nathan Poe

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The only prophecy we can even begin to check upon would be the reinstallment of Israel, and it doesn't get any more self-fulfilling than that. Even the High Comissioner of Palestine, Herbert Samuel, said - in a memorandum to the British parliament listing reasons why the creation of an independent Jewish state would be a good idea, no less - that "...the ancient prophecies are deeply ingrained in the Protestant world, and there exists a strong desire to see them fulfilled".*


* quoted from memory.

The restoration of Israel is the biggest propecy the Bible-worshippers like to trot out, and here we have the very people who fulfilled it admitting it was self-fulfilling.

Looks like we're down to 99% -- and falling.
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET

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The only prophecy we can even begin to check upon would be the reinstallment of Israel, and it doesn't get any more self-fulfilling than that. Even the High Comissioner of Palestine, Herbert Samuel, said - in a memorandum to the British parliament listing reasons why the creation of an independent Jewish state would be a good idea, no less - that "...the ancient prophecies are deeply ingrained in the Protestant world, and there exists a strong desire to see them fulfilled".*


* quoted from memory.

Well, in view of the fact that Egypt, the PLO, et.al. tried to turn Amos 9:15 into a self-fulfilling prophecy --- and failed --- I'd say there's a good chance that that was a legitimate prophecy --- wouldn't you?
 
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AV1611VET

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The restoration of Israel is the biggest propecy the Bible-worshippers like to trot out, and here we have the very people who fulfilled it admitting it was self-fulfilling.

One group of nay-sayers = Israel?

What about the nay-sayers in Jesus' time?
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Well, in view of the fact that Egypt, the PLO, et.al. tried to turn Amos 9:15 into a self-fulfilling prophecy --- and failed --- I'd say there's a good chance that that was a legitimate prophecy --- wouldn't you?
With France and the US backing it, Andorra could have won that war.
 
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AV1611VET

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With France and the US backing it, Andorra could have won that war.

And the inexplicable delay? I suppose that was Syria and Egypt on the phone to each other?
 
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AV1611VET

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What delay?

From Apocalypse Next, by William Goetz, pp. 96 - 99, speaking on the Yom Kippur War:

The Israelis had perhaps become over-confident following their previous confrontations with the Arabs. A prevailing Jewish attitude was, "All you have to do is fire a few shots in the air and the Syrians run like rabbits. Just point a tank in the direction of Cairo, and the Egyptians collapse immediately."

So Israel was taken by surprise. The attack came on the Jewish high holy day. Many in the nation of Israel were observing the day in the synagogues or in prayer and fasting. With the Arabs united for the first time in centuries, powerfully equipped with the latest sophisticated weapons and attacking on two fronts simultaneously, it appeared that Israel was indeed beaten.

The Arab assault was massive. In the north, they Syrians threw 1,200 tanks into a twenty-mile front, 25 percent more tanks than the Germans used in a 200-mile offensive against Russia in 1941! What has been called "the greatest tank battle in world history" was fought in the Sinai. According to news reports at the time, approximately 4,000 tanks, over 2,000 heavy guns, hundreds of missile batteries, 1,500 aircraft and nearly one million men as well as many unproven new weapons were thrown at Israel at the start of the war. It was the Middle East's first truly technological war.

Not only were the Israelis vastly outnumbered, but the Arab weapons were also superior - with the very latest, including surface to air (SAM) missiles, and other newly developed weaponry having been supplied to them by Russia. In addition, massive Soviet airlifts of arms to Syria and Egypt began on the first day of the war. Two hours after the fighting started, Russian Antonov transports, carrying weapons and replacements, began landing every three minutes at Syria's airport. Russian supply ships came into port in both countries.

On the other hand, the American airlift to Israel did not begin until the tenth day of the war, due to the refusal of America's allies to grant facilities to the U.S. for the refueling of planes. When the U.S. planes finally did arrive, the Israeli army was actually running out of ammunition. Israel's casualties in the first few days of the war were enormous.

...

There is no logical explanation for the failure of Egypt and Syria to totally destroy Israel during the Yom Kippur War or for Jordan to refuse to attack - a factor which undoubtedly would have been decisive.

The fact is that after the Egyptians had taken the supposedly invincible Bar-Lev line in a third of the time they had projected for its capture, and after the Syrian tanks had a clear run from the Golan Heights into Israel - they both inexplicably just stopped.

Many feel that those unexplainable delays gave Israel the time it had to have to recover from the surprise, regroup and reorganize. This factor almost certainly made the difference in the outcome of the war.

Whether this is true or not, the fact remains that Israel's very survival through the Yom Kippur War is a miracle. Many Israelis themselves agree: it had to be God.
 
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Nathan Poe

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One group of nay-sayers = Israel?

What about the nay-sayers in Jesus' time?

Who cares? Israel is not Jesus.

The fact is that the people most reponsibile for bringing about the restoration of Israel as a nation did so because they wanted to fulfill the prophecy. IOW, self-fulfilling.

And the tap-dancing continues -- so far my prophecies have a higher success rate than the Bible's.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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From Apocalypse Next, by William Goetz, pp. 96 - 99, speaking on the Yom Kippur War:

The Israelis had perhaps become over-confident following their previous confrontations with the Arabs. A prevailing Jewish attitude was, "All you have to do is fire a few shots in the air and the Syrians run like rabbits. Just point a tank in the direction of Cairo, and the Egyptians collapse immediately."

So Israel was taken by surprise. The attack came on the Jewish high holy day. Many in the nation of Israel were observing the day in the synagogues or in prayer and fasting. With the Arabs united for the first time in centuries, powerfully equipped with the latest sophisticated weapons and attacking on two fronts simultaneously, it appeared that Israel was indeed beaten.

The Arab assault was massive. In the north, they Syrians threw 1,200 tanks into a twenty-mile front, 25 percent more tanks than the Germans used in a 200-mile offensive against Russia in 1941! What has been called "the greatest tank battle in world history" was fought in the Sinai. According to news reports at the time, approximately 4,000 tanks, over 2,000 heavy guns, hundreds of missile batteries, 1,500 aircraft and nearly one million men as well as many unproven new weapons were thrown at Israel at the start of the war. It was the Middle East's first truly technological war.

Not only were the Israelis vastly outnumbered, but the Arab weapons were also superior - with the very latest, including surface to air (SAM) missiles, and other newly developed weaponry having been supplied to them by Russia. In addition, massive Soviet airlifts of arms to Syria and Egypt began on the first day of the war. Two hours after the fighting started, Russian Antonov transports, carrying weapons and replacements, began landing every three minutes at Syria's airport. Russian supply ships came into port in both countries.

On the other hand, the American airlift to Israel did not begin until the tenth day of the war, due to the refusal of America's allies to grant facilities to the U.S. for the refueling of planes. When the U.S. planes finally did arrive, the Israeli army was actually running out of ammunition. Israel's casualties in the first few days of the war were enormous.

...

There is no logical explanation for the failure of Egypt and Syria to totally destroy Israel during the Yom Kippur War or for Jordan to refuse to attack - a factor which undoubtedly would have been decisive.

The fact is that after the Egyptians had taken the supposedly invincible Bar-Lev line in a third of the time they had projected for its capture, and after the Syrian tanks had a clear run from the Golan Heights into Israel - they both inexplicably just stopped.

Many feel that those unexplainable delays gave Israel the time it had to have to recover from the surprise, regroup and reorganize. This factor almost certainly made the difference in the outcome of the war.

Whether this is true or not, the fact remains that Israel's very survival through the Yom Kippur War is a miracle. Many Israelis themselves agree: it had to be God.
Is there any other source for this? I cannot find this "inexplicable delay" anywhere and the good Mr. Goetz seems to be a bit on the lunatic fringe.
 
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