The Return of My Ex Nihilo Challenge

[AV1611VET]

I would say that there was a moment in history when the Earth's rotation was just that. And faster before that.

Interesting.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The earth's rotation -- in my opinion -- before the Fall, was 24.00000000000000 hours.

One mean solar day is still defined to be 24.00000000000 hours*. The average time from Solar zenith to Solar zenith.

Today, the earth's rotation is 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.

Which is a sidereal day. Because a 24-hour day is the time between when the Sun is highest locally in the sky due to the spin of the Earth and the Earth is orbiting the Sun, the Earth has to rotate slightly more than 360 degrees for the Sun be at zenith again. On a planet with N solar days in a year, there are N+1 sidereal days in a year. For Earth N is 365.25 24-hour Solar days and N+1 is 366.25 23h56m04s sidereal days.

If I'm right, how would this be possible without the Fall being the culprit?

Not yet AV, Fall begins in two weeks.

*basically, the official day is 86400 seconds and the second is now defined by an atomic transition in rubidium.

 

[AV1611VET]

One mean solar day is still defined to be 24.00000000000 hours*. The average time from Solar zenith to Solar zenith.

Only on paper.

Which is a sidereal day.

Only on paper.

Because a 24-hour day is the time between when the Sun is highest locally in the sky due to the spin of the Earth and the Earth is orbiting the Sun, the Earth has to rotate slightly more than 360 degrees for the Sun be at zenith again.

Neat.

On a planet with N solar days in a year, there are N+1 sidereal days in a year. For Earth N is 365.25 24-hour Solar days and N+1 is 366.25 23h56m04s sidereal days.

Neat.

Not yet AV, Fall begins in two weeks.

Cute.

*basically, the official day is 86400 seconds and the second is now defined by an atomic transition in rubidium.

Only on paper.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Only on paper.



Only on paper.

No, you can measure it. No paper is required.

Neat.



Neat.



Cute.



Only on paper.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, you can measure it. No paper is required.

If you measure a true solar day against a mean solar day, you get two different numbers.

And why aren't they both exactly 24.0000000000 hours?

Because of the Fall.

This is my point.

Prior to the Fall, they were both 24.0000000000 hours.

After the Fall, they parted ways.

 

[dlamberth]

Prior to the Fall, they were both 24.0000000000 hours.

After the Fall, they parted ways.

Could you explain exactly how the Fall has anything to do with any of this.

 

[AV1611VET]

Could you explain exactly how the Fall has anything to do with any of this.

Any of what?

The OP, or variances in orbits and revolutions?

 

[dlamberth]

Any of what?

The OP, or variances in orbits and revolutions?

The orbits and revolutions. That's what I was replying to in #146.

 

[AV1611VET]

The orbits and revolutions. That's what I was replying to in #146.

Before I answer this, how familiar are you with basic Christian doctrine?

Generally the doctrine of Hamartology; specifically the Fall?

I'd like to know, so I can answer either in depth or superficially.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If you measure a true solar day against a mean solar day, you get two different numbers.

Actually the true solar day is different every day.

And why aren't they both exactly 24.0000000000 hours?

Because they can't be.

Suppose the Earth orbited the Sun in 360 days (for simplicity) and traveled 1 degree around the orbit each day. To get back to the same meridian on the Earth facing the Sun, the Earth would have to rotatate 361 degrees. With 365.25 days in a year the amount is a little less, but the principle is the same. Snce the orbit is elliptical, the Earth travels faster closer to the Sun (in Dec/Jan) and slower when furthest from the Sun (June/July). The faster travel means the *angle* traveled by the Earth each day is most in Dec/Jan and Least in June/July, so the Earth has to rotate further to get back to solar noon in Dec/Jan and less far in June/July, or at least it would be if the Earth's axis wasn't tilted.

Synodic day - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Because of the Fall.

This is my point.

Prior to the Fall, they were both 24.0000000000 hours.

After the Fall, they parted ways.

Only if you believe this "fall" changed the orbit and tilt of the Earth. Have you got a scriptural reference for that change?

Earlier you were claiming the rotation period (the sidereal day) was 24h00m00s instead of the current 23h56m04s, which would have made the mean solar day (the one we experience directly) about 4 minutes longer (24h04m) than it is currently. The two days (solar and sidereal) *cannot* be the same. Ever. Do you have a scriptural reference for this claim?

The whole "exactly 24 hours in a day" is just humans setting our time keeping to the (mean) solar day with our obsessive use of the Babylonian 12/60 counting system. It is not "magic" or special.

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually the true solar day is different every day.

You're appealing to science to argue yourself out of understanding, aren't you?

The laws of nature were a little different back then -- (see dad's posts).

Since the orbit is elliptical,

Now we're getting somewhere.

What put the orbit of the earth into an elliptical orbit from a perfect circular orbit?

Only if you believe this "fall" changed the orbit and tilt of the Earth. Have you got a scriptural reference for that change?

I told myself, when you cracked that joke about the Fall being the autumn season, that your jesting was going to come back and haunt you.

Right out of understanding.

The whole "exactly 24 hours in a day" is just humans setting our time keeping to the (mean) solar day with our obsessive use of the Babylonian 12/60 counting system. It is not "magic" or special.

Okay -- suit yourself.

Your science is creating a mental block that you can't get around.

Question: Do you realize the EXTENT of the Fall, and how it affected the ENTIRE UNIVERSE?

This means when Adam sinned, even Earendel was affected.

Specifically it started dying due to something called "heat death" -- (thermal equilibrium?).

FOR ONCE, combine theology and science together and interpret this passage for me:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

What is Paul saying here?

Can you answer that?

In your opinion, does "the whole creation" apply to Earndel, as well as it does to Adam's spiritual condition?

(Remember: Science and Theology can -- and do -- walk hand in hand.)

 

[dlamberth]

Before I answer this, how familiar are you with basic Christian doctrine?

Generally the doctrine of Hamartology; specifically the Fall?

I googled the doctrine Hamartology. Not my cup of tea. But that help in understanding you.

 

[dlamberth]

Now we're getting somewhere.

What put the orbit of the earth into an elliptical orbit from a perfect circular orbit?

With my limited understanding of astrophysics, I don't believe it's possible for any celestial body to have a "perfect circular orbit". The Earth itself is in a helical motion as the sun pulls it through space. The same with the moon as it's pulled through space by the earth.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You're appealing to science to argue yourself out of understanding, aren't you?

I am using scientific data to get to understanding of what is happening.

The laws of nature were a little different back then -- (see dad's posts).

"dad" has been gone a long time, but not long enough for the laws of physic to change.

Now we're getting somewhere.

What put the orbit of the earth into an elliptical orbit from a perfect circular orbit?

Why assume the Earth was ever in a perfect circular orbit?

There are small perturbatoins of the orbit from other Solar system bodies all the time.

I told myself, when you cracked that joke about the Fall being the autumn season, that your jesting was going to come back and haunt you.

The only thing "haunting me" is the ghost of Phil.

Right out of understanding.

I understand the orbital mechanics perfectly well.

Okay -- suit yourself.

Seriously. That is how the day got to be "exactly" 24*3600 seconds long. Units were defined so it would be that way. Earth units (SI) are based on the size of the Earth. The meter is 1/10,000,000 the of the distance between the pole and the equator. The second is 1/3600th of 1/24 of the mean solar day.

Your science is creating a mental block that you can't get around.

To understand orbital mechanics? Hardly.

Question: Do you realize the EXTENT of the Fall, and how it affected the ENTIRE UNIVERSE?

And I thought the whole "Adam did one thing wrong so now all humanity must suffer." was a bit of an overreaction, this thing of yours makes that divine retribution look only mildly capricious.

This means when Adam sinned, even Earendel was affected.

Never heard of it.

Specifically it started dying due to something called "heat death" -- (thermal equilibrium?).

Heat death comes from an eternal expansion. Does you new theology include an eternal expansion of the Universe? Where can we find this in scripture?

FOR ONCE, combine theology and science together and interpret this passage for me:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

What is Paul saying here?

HI have no idea. No context is provided. Language is archaic.

Can you answer that?

Look pretty meaningless to me, but most scripture is.

In your opinion, does "the whole creation" apply to Earndel, as well as it does to Adam's spiritual condition?

I don't know what Earndel is either. This Adam lived thousands of years ago, so he is dead.

(Remember: Science and Theology can -- and do -- walk hand in hand.)

When you do that all you have is theology. A thoroughly uninteresting state.

I have a question for you:

What is it like adding your own stuff to scripture? I've not seen anyone add that much of their own stuff to the Bible since Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

[MehGuy]

I look at it from several angles. For one, breaks my heart to see children, or anyone for that matter, suffering from illness. And I do what I can to help. From another angle, Life is Life as God Created it. And quite honestly, I see the activity of God experiencing the suffering of the child. It's one of the ways in which God experiences things like compassion and empathy and service to those in need. So even in the mist of suffering, that's a beautiful sight to behold.

A beautiful sight to behold?

Sounds a little Mother Teresa-ish.

Can you understand why some people might not want a God to be empathetic and compassionate towards them and others under such circumstances? Or even appreciate the very idea of a being allowing us to suffer so he can love us.

 

[dlamberth]

Can you understand why some people might not want a God to be empathetic and compassionate towards them and others under such circumstances? Or even appreciate the very idea of a being allowing us to suffer so he can love us.

Yes, I absolutely do understand.

 

[MehGuy]

Yes, I absolutely do understand.

You understand? Do you just not agree with the objections?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Never heard of it.

If memory serves, that’s Elrond’s father. He made an epic voyage to Valinor and instead of being executed for being the first mortal(ish) person to set foot in the land, because he came from a place of true intentions across the races of both men and elves, he was granted life and the ability to choose his race (he was half elf, half mortal). He chose elf, as did Eldrond. His other son, though, chose mortality and this was the first in the lineage that (after 40ish kings and some odds and ends) eventually gave us Aragon, the true King of Gondor, which bummed out Sean Bean and his dad (who was kind of the worst, actually).

Anyway, Aragon ended up marrying Elrond’s daughter Arwen, which is kind of weird when you think about it, and she chose mortality.

It’s been a minute since I read it, but that’s the general swing of it I think. Condensed down several hundred pages, anyway. I’d need at least 5 three+ hour long movies to do the story real justice.

 

[dlamberth]

You understand? Do you just not agree with the objections?

Oh...I completely agree with the objections. You have no argument from me at all.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If memory serves, that’s Elrond’s father. He made an epic voyage to Valinor and instead of being executed for being the first mortal(ish) person to set foot in the land, because he came from a place of true intentions across the races of both men and elves, he was granted life and the ability to choose his race (he was half elf, half mortal). He chose elf, as did Eldrond. His other son, though, chose mortality and this was the first in the lineage that (after 40ish kings and some odds and ends) eventually gave us Aragon, the true King of Gondor, which bummed out Sean Bean and his dad (who was kind of the worst, actually).

Anyway, Aragon ended up marrying Elrond’s daughter Arwen, which is kind of weird when you think about it, and she chose mortality.

It’s been a minute since I read it, but that’s the general swing of it I think. Condensed down several hundred pages, anyway. I’d need at least 5 three+ hour long movies to do the story real justice.

Who are any of those people?