My Enoch Challenge

[Jazer]

A pity you will have to look pretty hard to find someone making a claim that foolish.

Perhaps you mean it is a pity we do not have to look very hard. In fact they come looking for us. The Bible says to be fully convinced. Perhaps people think if they can convince others that will help them to convince themselves of whatever it is they are wanting to believe. Even though deep down they know the truth. Double minded people have a conflict, single minded people have peace.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Perhaps you mean it is a pity we do not have to look very hard. In fact they come looking for us. The Bible says to be fully convinced. Perhaps people think if they can convince others that will help them to convince themselves of whatever it is they are wanting to believe. Even though deep down they know the truth. Double minded people have a conflict, single minded people have peace.

If you're so single minded, what's with all this blather?

 

[Jazer]

what's with all this blather?

It is a lot easier to talk it then it is to walk it. We can even feel a degree of self righteousness if we "blather" enough.

 

[Nathan Poe]

It is a lot easier to talk it then it is to walk it. We can even feel a degree of self righteousness if we "blather" enough.

So I've noticed.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is a lot easier to talk it then it is to walk it. We can even feel a degree of self righteousness if we "blather" enough.

That's the thing with these guys.

Real scientists are out in the fields, doing real work -- blood, sweat, and tears; while the rest are here on the Net talking like them.

That's why you see geologists here talking like astronomers, astronomers talking like biologists, and biologists talking like geologists.

Since the Pluto issue, when they agreed 100%,* I now have learned to be suspicious of them when they are unanimous.

* I remember one person -- and I can't remember who it was -- admitted later that he did not agree with the Pluto issue; but this came well-after a girl showed up and pointed out that the Pluto issue was a dud.

In short, I trust these guys less than I do doctors.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That's the thing with these guys.

Real scientists are out in the fields, doing real work -- blood, sweat, and tears; while the rest are here on the Net talking like them.

And then there ar guys like you, AV -- trying to imitate people who do nothing for a living.

 

[Jazer]

In short, I trust these guys less than I do doctors.

It is always the people who have not been poked, jabbed and probed by science that have so much confidence in it. They have not had the joy of having who knows what stuck who knows where, just to clean your wallet out and be told that there is nothing more they can do for you. I still joke with my son about one of the jobs he had where they made one of those probes and it was his job to calibrate it.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is always the people who have not been poked, jabbed and probed by science that have so much confidence in it. They have not had the joy of having who knows what stuck who knows where, just to clean your wallet out and be told that there is nothing more they can do for you. I still joke with my son about one of the jobs he had where they made one of those probes and it was his job to calibrate it.

Ya -- I still remember the night I took my wife to the ER with a pain in her side.

They poke, proded, x-rayed, and mri-ed her, then said they were sending her home.

I asked what was wrong with her, and they said something I didn't quite understand, so I asked for the doctor.

When he came in, I asked for the scientific name of what was wrong with my wife, and he said he didn't know.

I then asked him why they were sending her home, and he said they did all the tests they could for her and nothing showed up.

We got into a heated discussion, and he asked me, "What more do you suggest we do for her?"

To which I replied, "How about some old-fashioned exploratory surgery like Chad Everett used to do on Medical Center?"

He laughed and started to leave and I said I wasn't leaving until I got the scientific name of her diagnosis -- not a prognosis.

I was then told to leave -- so I left.

 

[Jazer]

They poke, proded, x-rayed, and mri-ed her, then said they were sending her home.

The MRI cost what? $2,000? Did you get your moneys worth? Science Ya gotta love it!

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Because some can take that claim on faith.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

In other words, faith is believing in something you want to be true without having a real reason to believe it. Which brings us back to what Tibirius asked, Why believe it?

If then, someone comes along and says Event-x didn't happen because there's no known evidence; the ball is in their court to show it didn't happen, UNLESS that person is going on faith that it didn't happen as well.

No one is or can make the positive claim that Enoch didn't walk with God. We can't make that claim because there is no evidence either way...which is why we also don't believe the positive claim that he DID walk with God. Do you see how that works?

 

[Belk]

Ya -- I still remember the night I took my wife to the ER with a pain in her side.

They poke, proded, x-rayed, and mri-ed her, then said they were sending her home.

I asked what was wrong with her, and they said something I didn't quite understand, so I asked for the doctor.

When he came in, I asked for the scientific name of what was wrong with my wife, and he said he didn't know.

I then asked him why they were sending her home, and he said they did all the tests they could for her and nothing showed up.

We got into a heated discussion, and he asked me, "What more do you suggest we do for her?"

To which I replied, "How about some old-fashioned exploratory surgery like Chad Everett used to do on Medical Center?"

He laughed and started to leave and I said I wasn't leaving until I got the scientific name of her diagnosis -- not a prognosis.

I was then told to leave -- so I left.

Wow, what a damning indictment. Some random doctor couldn't come up with the "scientific name" of you wife's pain that they where not able to find a cause for. Guess that negates all the life saving techniques science has found and employed.

 

[Jazer]

Guess that negates all the life saving techniques science has found and employed.

They do not care about saving lives. My doctor even told me he does care if I live or die. Although he did have some compassion on my son and thought it would be nice if he had a father. The mafia driven drug companys just want to make money. It helps them to make money if they can keep you alive. There are good doctors out there that do care, but even they are vastly limited by limited resources. They only have so much to work with. Science does not always deliver on what they claim they can deliver on. I am sure the good doctors wish they could do a lot more then they can to be able to help people.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

They do not care about saving lives. My doctor even told me he does care if I live or die. Although he did have some compassion on my son and thought it would be nice if he had a father. The mafia driven drug companys just want to make money. It helps them to make money if they can keep you alive. There are good doctors out there that do care, but even they are vastly limited by limited resources. They only have so much to work with. Science does not always deliver on what they claim they can deliver on. I am sure the good doctors wish they could do a lot more then they can to be able to help people.

Uh, get a new doctor? My guy is pretty cool. He chats it up with me and my wife about school (she goes to the same university that he went to).

One time I had to get him to sign a medical release to travel and he said my insurance wouldn't cover it so he put down that I had a cold so I didn't have to pay for the visit. He also got me up to date on the shots I needed to travel and put it down on my record that they had previously had been done so I didn't have to pay.

My doctor is awesome. And because MY doctor is awesome, therefore ALL doctors must be awesome too.


See how that works?

 

[Jazer]

My doctor is awesome. And because MY doctor is awesome, therefore ALL doctors must be awesome too.

Actually, my dad was a good doctor. It was a very rude awakening for me to find out all doctors were not as good as he was. Half the doctors out there were in the bottom half of their class. The doctor I am talking about is very good at surgery. Sometimes they are known not to have the best communication skills.

 

[pgp_protector]

Actually, my dad was a good doctor. It was a very rude awakening for me to find out all doctors were not as good as he was. Half the doctors out there were in the bottom half of their class. The doctor I am talking about is very good at surgery. Sometimes they are known not to have the best communication skills.

Wouldn't half of any class be in the bottom 1/2 of that class for all professions?

 

[Jazer]

Wouldn't half of any class be in the bottom 1/2 of that class for all professions?

Yep, maybe the next time we get in a taxi we should ask the guy if he was in the top half of his class.

 

[Tiberius]

Because some can take that claim on faith.

So if people take claims on faith because there is no evidence to support there claim, what's to stop them from being wrong?

If then, someone comes along and says Event-x didn't happen because there's no known evidence; the ball is in their court to show it didn't happen, UNLESS that person is going on faith that it didn't happen as well.

And what if that person comes along and says, "If Event X really did occur, then we should see Evidence A, evidence B and Evidence C. There is no way around it - Event X MUST cause A, B and C! And yet A, B and C are nowhere to be found! This can only mean that Event X never occured!"

Can you answer that, AV? if event X always causes A, B and C, but there is no A, B or C, do you think event X occured or not?

 

[AV1611VET]

In other words, faith is believing in something you want to be true without having a real reason to believe it.

Faith is believing something when science says otherwise.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Faith is believing something when science says otherwise.

That's not what the verse says. it doesn't mention science at all. Go back and read it please.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Faith is believing something when science says otherwise.

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, and science is certainly with me on that one.


Your definition creates a rivalry where none exists -- which serves no purpose except for those who feel threatened by science, and want to wrap themselves in the illusion of having something better.