My Creationist Challenge

[AV1611VET]

I actually agree. But I think your interpretation is way off. Not that others aren't worse off target, but I do think you're missing the core message while focusing too much on the wording of a parable and not enough on it's intention.

You've made that abundantly clear -- numerous times.

 

[TheReasoner]

You've made that abundantly clear -- numerous times.

Yep. You keep insisting you cannot be wrong about it though. Despite most theologians disagreeing with you. The bible being inconsistent with regards to it. No physical evidence supporting your position, but lots contradicting it. AND despite both the fact that most Christians disagree with you AND that there are PLENTY of examples from history up to and including today of people being wrong

So tell me AV: Why is YOUR position infallible when there's nothing apart from your own interpretation of a few verses which support it? Why should we take you seriously as opposed to all the others who - with greater support from all arenas - claim differently?

 

[AV1611VET]

So tell me AV: Why is YOUR position infallible when there's nothing apart from your own interpretation of a few verses which support it? Why should we take you seriously as opposed to all the others who - with greater support from all arenas - claim differently?

Until you come up with a better one, I'll stick to ours.

 

[freezerman2000]

No -- God gave us Genesis 1 for a reason, and He expects us to use it.

Use it how? To argue all day long about something that has nothing to do with our salvation? Nowhere in the Bible did it say that we have to take Genesis literally.

 

[Jazer]

there are PLENTY of examples from history up to and including today of people being wrong

That is what makes the Bible the Bible. 3500 years and the Bible has proven to be true over and over again. Perhaps the Book of Enoch was not included in the cannon of the Bible. But a lot of what we learn from Moses actually comes from Enoch and his book. Enoch was 7 generations from Adam and 3 generations before Noah. So from Adam to Noah you have 10 generations. What evidence do you have for this? All of the geneologys that we find in our Bible are being backed up by the research on DNA. In this case the Hebrews are the J haplogroup. What does science tell us? That the J Haplogroup was associated with the spread of farming. What does the Bible tell us? Adam was a farmer. Science shows us the Bible is true and Enoch was a real person. Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

 

[AV1611VET]

Use it how? To argue all day long about something that has nothing to do with our salvation? Nowhere in the Bible did it say that we have to take Genesis literally.

That is correct -- junk doctrine as pertains to creationism is not going to keep one out of Heaven.

 

[Jazer]

Use it how? To argue all day long about something that has nothing to do with our salvation? Nowhere in the Bible did it say that we have to take Genesis literally.

Gen 1 has everything to do with Science. Moses was taught by the Egyptions. He know all the science of his day. Now 3500 years later nothing in science today contradicts what Moses knew back then. Abraham also was well educated in Science by the Chaldeans. But God called him out of the error to walk in the truth. God gave Moses and Abraham the ability to seperate truth from error.

 

[Jazer]

That is correct -- junk doctrine as pertains to creationism is not going to keep one out of Heaven.

It may not keep you out of jail either.

 

[Jazer]

I dont happen to believe in a god, but then I dont think Buddhism does either, and its a good system too.

Why is it that Buddhism and Communism does not get along?
China has 300,000 soldiers (with their girfriends) stationed in the Tibetan highlands.

 

[Jazer]

Is there an animal who built (not dig) a shelter and used it all year around and year after year (like human built a house)?

The homes and the dams the the beavers build are amazing. They create a whole Eco system of birds and fish and reptiles. The Cranes and Bullfrogs find a home there.

 

[Hespera]

Why is it that Buddhism and Communism does not get along?
China has 300,000 soldiers (with their girfriends) stationed in the Tibetan highlands.

China is more capitalist than the USA is, and better at it.

tibet is part of China why do you have troops in alabama?

the bit about girlfriends is gratuitous and weird

and your post is totally OT from what I said.

do you have something to say?

 

[TheReasoner]

Until you come up with a better one, I'll stick to ours.

So you admit having no factual or scriptural support for your interpretation?

 

[TheReasoner]

That is what makes the Bible the Bible. 3500 years and the Bible has proven to be true over and over again. Perhaps the Book of Enoch was not included in the cannon of the Bible. But a lot of what we learn from Moses actually comes from Enoch and his book. Enoch was 7 generations from Adam and 3 generations before Noah. So from Adam to Noah you have 10 generations. What evidence do you have for this? All of the geneologys that we find in our Bible are being backed up by the research on DNA. In this case the Hebrews are the J haplogroup. What does science tell us? That the J Haplogroup was associated with the spread of farming. What does the Bible tell us? Adam was a farmer. Science shows us the Bible is true and Enoch was a real person. Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Interpretations are proven false though. And while the bible may be absolutelt truthful that does not mean the reader is correct. By reading the bible literally you find support for a flat earth with corners standing atop immovable pillars with a hard dome above it. As an example. The geocentrists thought the Ptolemaic model was biblically supported and had solid scriptural basis for that claim, too. But their interpretation was proven wrong. The creationist model has also been proven wrong without a doubt. Especially young earth creationism. Not the bible, though. What is proven wrong is an interpretation of it. HUGE difference!

Even if you don't think I am right in that claim (if so I ask you to objectively research it as thoroughly as I did - I.e. Off to study natural sciences at the university) surely you do not deny the fallibility of the human interpreter and hence the need to be humble in one's reading of scripture lest human fallibility corrupt the story as a whole through arrogant assumption of interpretational perfection?


Btw, your genetics argument there is not correct I should think. Care to provide sources?

 

[juvenissun]

Am I exaggerating? Maybe. To be honest I don't think I am. Creationists very often refuse to even the possibility of being mistaken. Something I always have a problem with. No matter who makes what claim. It's far too arrogant IMHO and smacks of fanaticism, not faith.

Part of my problem with it is that we often see creationists cone into contact with scientists or engineers or just people with a decent amount of knowledge, only to make complete and utter fools of themselves by claiming something outrageously wrong, for example the moon-landing dust scenario, the entropy argument, the conservation of angular momentum argument, a plethora of other severe mistakes which they then vehemently try to associate with Christianity. Effectively alienating Christ from the other part of the discussion. In effect making faith borderline impossible to the person in question due to this poor approach. St. Augustine covers this very well in confessions btw. Good book.

Yeah, we are not supposed to be like this world. But don't you think that's about loving where others hate, forgiving and showing compassion? And don't you think that when presenting a position which theologically is held by only a few some humility should be present in the claim in case the claimant is wrong and hence inadvertedly works against Gods plan?
That has happened soooo often. Christians who claim perfect knowledge and bungle it majorly instead. Look at the geocentrists for a brilliant example.

All church people are sinners does not mean that you should not go to the church.

 

[juvenissun]

Use it how? To argue all day long about something that has nothing to do with our salvation? Nowhere in the Bible did it say that we have to take Genesis literally.

You do not have to. But it would be your loss.
That is how.

 

[juvenissun]

The homes and the dams the the beavers build are amazing. They create a whole Eco system of birds and fish and reptiles. The Cranes and Bullfrogs find a home there.

One of the question is why doesn't any other animal do the same?

 

[Jro]

One of the question is why doesn't any other animal do the same?

Do you mean create an ecosystem, or build homes? Many species dramatically reshape their environment and many others build homes. Some, like ants, even do both.

 

[TheReasoner]

All church people are sinners does not mean that you should not go to the church.

Not saying otherwise. It does, however, mean we need to be humble.

(You do know most churches aren't creationist though, right?)

 

[AV1611VET]

:

Does your church do foot washings?

 

[TheReasoner]

:

Focusing on the ritual instead of the intent behind it, AV?