My Creationist Challenge

[USincognito]

Do you have anything that proves birds evolved from dinosaurs or man from apes? Notice I said “proves”

Well, what would you consider proof? Would it be multiple lines of evidence or would it be an Emu hatching a clutch of T-Rexes/Gorilla giving birth to a baby?

This question seems ironic to me,considering it is in a Christian forum and is directed at creationist,but then you say he is not welcome? if you wanted someone to agree with you why would you be in a Christian forum spouting evolution?

or maybe i am missing something here

It's more ironic seeing someone who has been a member of this forum for 3 days lecturing someone who has been a member for 3 years about participation in the forum.

 

[TheReasoner]

This question seems ironic to me,considering it is in a Christian forum and is directed at creationist,but then you say he is not welcome? if you wanted someone to agree with you why would you be in a Christian forum spouting evolution?

or maybe i am missing something here

You are. And for the record, creationism is not the same as Christianity. Creationism is a largely american phenomenon and while some more radical groups diffused in from the US holding such views they are but a small minority

Evolution does not contradict christianity any more than relativity or the atomic theory does.

What I find contrary to Christian core teachings however is what both AV and Doveaman admitted to in their first posts here in this thread: they claim to not have been wrong. What human being is EVER infallibly right? That's a property only God can claim.

 

[juvenissun]

Challenge is for you to tell us if any of you ever agreed that you were wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion.

One. And I am still thinking about it.

Is there an animal who built (not dig) a shelter and used it all year around and year after year (like human built a house)?

I thought there is none. Now I know there is at least one.

 

[juvenissun]

You are. And for the record, creationism is not the same as Christianity. Creationism is a largely american phenomenon and while some more radical groups diffused in from the US holding such views they are but a small minority

Evolution does not contradict christianity any more than relativity or the atomic theory does.

What I find contrary to Christian core teachings however is what both AV and Doveaman admitted to in their first posts here in this thread: they claim to not have been wrong. What human being is EVER infallibly right? That's a property only God can claim.

You exaggerated it. Except the one I said in the last post, I don't feel I was defeated in any other argument. In this case, it is not that I am infallibly right, but it is that none was able to convince me on the issue of debate.

The same should apply to AV and Doveaman.

 

[TheReasoner]

You exaggerated it. Except the one I said in the last post, I don't feel I was defeated in any other argument. In this case, it is not that I am infallibly right, but it is that none was able to convince me on the issue of debate.

The same should apply to AV and Doveaman.

Am I exaggerating? Maybe. To be honest I don't think I am. Creationists very often refuse to even the possibility of being mistaken. Something I always have a problem with. No matter who makes what claim. It's far too arrogant IMHO and smacks of fanaticism, not faith.

Part of my problem with it is that we often see creationists cone into contact with scientists or engineers or just people with a decent amount of knowledge, only to make complete and utter fools of themselves by claiming something outrageously wrong, for example the moon-landing dust scenario, the entropy argument, the conservation of angular momentum argument, a plethora of other severe mistakes which they then vehemently try to associate with Christianity. Effectively alienating Christ from the other part of the discussion. In effect making faith borderline impossible to the person in question due to this poor approach. St. Augustine covers this very well in confessions btw. Good book.

Yeah, we are not supposed to be like this world. But don't you think that's about loving where others hate, forgiving and showing compassion? And don't you think that when presenting a position which theologically is held by only a few some humility should be present in the claim in case the claimant is wrong and hence inadvertedly works against Gods plan?
That has happened soooo often. Christians who claim perfect knowledge and bungle it majorly instead. Look at the geocentrists for a brilliant example.

 

[Hespera]

One. And I am still thinking about it.

Is there an animal who built (not dig) a shelter and used it all year around and year after year (like human built a house)?

I thought there is none. Now I know there is at least one.

At least one what?

 

[Hespera]

You exaggerated it. Except the one I said in the last post, I don't feel I was defeated in any other argument. In this case, it is not that I am infallibly right, but it is that none was able to convince me on the issue of debate.

The same should apply to AV and Doveaman.

it is really impossible to know what you are talking about in your last post.

If you didnt know that animals built shelters then use them year after year, and then found out that there are a lot of them that do that.... so?

You are saying that you have never agreed that you were wrong on any evo / creo issue.

We have noticed that a number of you cannot be convinced.

it is an odd brag, like bragging that you cannot be convinced that there really is a place called Australia.

as for AV and Dove... what are you talking about? that they are like you in this regard? (none able to convince) what?

dove: As a creo I don't recall being wrong about anything

if av said something i didnt read it.

 

[AV1611VET]

We have noticed that a number of you cannot be convinced.

Ain't that too bad?

Instead of slagging our faith, you might want to appreciate what it is our servicemen fight and die for: freedom -- including freedom to choose faith over certain sciences.

 

[Hespera]

The only thing we learn from being wrong is that we are wrong.
Only in science is being wrong a victory.

In Christianity faith is the victory.

In science wrong is the victory.

I think I'll stick with faith. You can stick with wrong.

In science wrong is the victory.

this has a thin watery strand of truth in it, but is deliberately or ignorantly stated as a complete misrepresentation.

some reason for doing that?

 

[TheReasoner]

Ain't that too bad?

Instead of slagging our faith, you might want to appreciate what it is our servicemen fight and die for: freedom -- including freedom to choose faith over certain sciences.

There is faith* and then there is faith**

* humility, trust, love, compassion.

** delusion. Rejection of anything conflicting with ones own position. Deification of one's position and an utter refusal to accept the possibility of being wrong. AKA: Fanaticism.

 

[Hespera]

There is faith* and then there is faith**

* humility, trust, love, compassion.

** delusion. Rejection of anything conflicting with ones own position. Deification of one's position and an utter refusal to accept the possibility of being wrong. AKA: Fanaticism.

if some people like to place their faith in god on a quality equivalent level
with faith that the water tap in the kitchen will work so much the worse for their faith.

 

[AV1611VET]

There is faith* and then there is faith**

* humility, trust, love, compassion.

** delusion. Rejection of anything conflicting with ones own position. Deification of one's position and an utter refusal to accept the possibility of being wrong. AKA: Fanaticism.

Is this how you justify it, FG?

There's a Faith1 and a Faith2?

 

[TheReasoner]

Is this how you justify it, FG?

There's a Faith1 and a Faith2?

Nope. Thats just a severe simplification. But I do honestly think you have put far too much weight on your own interpretation of the bible and not enough on the necessity for personal humility in regards to the questions related to this board.
I have called you on it before asking you why you seem to preach that Christianity=creationism when this is outright false, and I have pointed to the necessity of portraying Jesus in an inclusive loving fashion which to be honest I do not entirely see in creationists preaching creationism. I don't see faith there, only fear and an extreme focus on one sole scriptural interpretation. Indeed when you leave no room for the possibility of the presence of mistakes it is my express opinion that in the very least you are running a grave risk of ending up with a de-facto self-worship.
It is in my mind tragic that creos present this false focus on creationism and NOT Christ, love, compassion etc, a position which is so difficult for people to relate to you're pushing a lot of people away from Christ by effectively preaching that Christianity is false.

 

[AV1611VET]

But I do honestly think you have put far too much weight on your own interpretation of the bible and not enough on the necessity for personal humility in regards to the questions related to this board.

Does your church do foot washings?

 

[Hespera]

Nope. Thats just a severe simplification. But I do honestly think you have put far too much weight on your own interpretation of the bible and not enough on the necessity for personal humility in regards to the questions related to this board.
I have called you on it before asking you why you seem to preach that Christianity=creationism when this is outright false, and I have pointed to the necessity of portraying Jesus in an inclusive loving fashion which to be honest I do not entirely see in creationists preaching creationism. I don't see faith there, only fear and an extreme focus on one sole scriptural interpretation. Indeed when you leave no room for the possibility of the presence of mistakes it is my express opinion that in the very least you are running a grave risk of ending up with a de-facto self-worship.
It is in my mind tragic that creos present this false focus on creationism and NOT Christ, love, compassion etc, a position which is so difficult for people to relate to you're pushing a lot of people away from Christ by effectively preaching that Christianity is false.

I dont think that "christianity is false". Atheist that I am.

I think it has a lot of merit, and a lot of wisdom and compassion.

I dont happen to believe in a god, but then I dont think Buddhism does either, and its a good system too.

I think there could be a god. I dont believe there is, but of course there could be.

What there could not be, is a god who is the one that the creos believe in.
it is so blatantly and demonstrably false, as shown so easily both by the Christians and the scientists!

And common sense. Come on... the flood?

The creos certainly would succeed in pushing me away from their cult, should I have ever been inclined that way. They never could have dragged me in with a log chain, so thats hypothetical.

i think that most people, (we make an exception for the trailer parkers), probably everyone but the 'parkers know that "christianity"
and "creationism" are not synonymous, and wont be deceived on this point.

Any non christian who is so easily deceived... well, they are not giving the subject a bit more intelligent thought than the parkers are, and whats to be said or done for them?

Not my deal, but outreach for the terminally thoughtless might be a good christian project.

 

[Hespera]

oh and this was intended as a thread about the ability of creationists to admit they are wrong about something, not another platform for a certain poster to add to his post count and his ego. said person is politely again requested that he leave.

 

[AV1611VET]

said person is politely again requested that he leave.

Said person -- if said person is I -- politely declines.

 

[freezerman2000]

Wouldn't it be funny if, ALL of us were wrong, and the truth being something so incomprehensible,that it is beyond our wildest imaginations?
I'm not even going to try to speculate what it could wind up being.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wouldn't it be funny if, ALL of us were wrong, and the truth being something so incomprehensible,that it is beyond our wildest imaginations?

No -- God gave us Genesis 1 for a reason, and He expects us to use it.

 

[TheReasoner]

No -- God gave us Genesis 1 for a reason, and He expects us to use it.

And ignore genesis 2?

I actually agree. But I think your interpretation is way off. Not that others aren't worse off target, but I do think you're missing the core message while focusing too much on the wording of a parable and not enough on it's intention.