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My brother-in-law's response

Beanieboy

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The Bible is very clear on this. The one who tallies our every move is Satan. He will be the one accusing us before God at the judgment. If we believe in Christ, then Jesus has only to utter three words and God remembers nothing of our past sins. Those words--It is Finished.

Do you believe this is a literal sense?

Also, in Quitting Religion without Quitting God, Zeller suggests that Jesus died for the sins of all, and is the Saviour of all, and that salvation isn't something that is "activated" by something we do. It's something that is done.

I thought about it for a while, and it makes sense.
For example, if soldiers went to war to protect your freedom, does it matter whether you accept that freedom or not? Your freedom is protected, whether you acknowledge it or not.

In the same way, I think that it's possible that Jesus is everyone's Saviour. The idea that he is only your Saviour when you say he is makes it so that man, in a sense, saves himself by his actions.

Zeller backs up his theory with a number of things.
For example, in his imagined interveiw, the woman witnessing to him says that Jesus died for his sins. He says, "Hooray!" She then says, "But you must accept him as your Saviour." He replies, "Why would I want to believe something that isn't true?"
The woman is confused, and he explains, "First, You say that Jesus died for my sins, but unless I accept him, then he didn't. So which is it? Did he die for my sins or not? Because I only want to believe what is true."

He continues, asking her about his 15 year old niece who was questioning whether she wanted to follow Jesus, but was killed in a car accident. When asked about her fate, the woman says that unfortunately, she is in hell, going through tortures none of us could even imagine. When asked about why that is just, she replies, "Well, wouldn't you torture someone who didn't love you?" He replies, "No! Not for 5 Minutes!"

In the end, with a great illustration of why non-christians are repulsed, and the illogic, he, a Christian author, shows how a nonbeliever is so put off by a questionable approach to Christianity that is prevalent today.

What do you think about that - the idea that Jesus took away the sins of the world (regardless of our choice), and that he did indeed undo the devil's work?
 
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Beanieboy

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Read the Psalms sometime to see how great God's mercy was to His children in the OT. Read the accounts of God's judgement in the NT to see how terrible His wrath will be.



I can't imagine where they would get such an idea. The Bible doesn't say anything even remotely like that.
The righteous will be glad when they see God's vengeance; •
they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
Psalm 59:10
And because I am an "enemy of God" as you have admitted yourself, she quoted this to me. Since I had no intention of becoming Christian, she was looking forward to this.

The site is full of people that will tell you how God is not just love, but also hate, judgement, etc., and that is what they focus on, because that is what is in their heart.

Somehow, I am supposed to submit to a God who hates me, because once I do, he will then love me, according to them.

I would say, "Yeah, it's a bunch of yahoos," except that many a Christian will say that God loves his Children, and then expect the nonChristian to love God first, although the bible clearly says that God loves the world.

I have even seen an evangelist use the verse "Even in the womb, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated", to show that God isn't love, but also hate, and that the two are not in contradiction. Then they want to know why you don't want to sign on with a wrathful God of hate.

The short version is that it's against my religion, as well as disturbing.

Does Buddhism teach that man is sinful and will stand before a Holy and Righteous God on judgement day? Does it teach that we're enemies of God, children of wrath, because of our sins? Does it teach that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man comes to the Father but by Him?

If it were, it would be Christianity.

I can recommend good books if you want a better understanding of it. But no, it doesn't teach that we will all be in judgement, that we are nothing but sinners, or that we can be reduced to our sins. It does teach us how to end our suffering by giving up our desires, about realizing that all of life is temporary, and that what we sow, we reap. It's more possitive than negative, more encoouraging than threatening.

It isn't simply what I wish to believe. It is what Jesus taught.

I don't really see anything productive coming out of this discussion and it's clear that you're not receptive to God's word, or even willing to listen to anything we have to say, so this will probably be my last post to you.

In parting, I would strongly encourage you not to go another day without repenting and putting your faith in Christ, so that you might be forgiven of your sins and reconciled to God.

Thanks, but this forum is called "Questions by Non-Christians", and you are using it as an invitation to ask me to become Christian.

I was simply confused about my brother-in-law's response that he saw nothing but evil inside of himself, and confused, because, as another posted, he is a temple of God, the HS lives inside him, he's asked Jesus to live inside, and he's made in God's image.

You have echoed this, that we are worthless sinners that are completely evil.

Another poster disagreed with you.

I was just curious if this was an isolated belief, and apparently it's not. You claim that God is one of wrath and vengence, and are lucky that he loves you at all, and then confused why that doesn't sound like someone I would want to follow.

I suppose it would be of some benefit to have you debate the issue with her, because it would help me better understand the belief, and see both sides.
 
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Beanieboy

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I'm glad you posted this for now we can see that you haven't paid close attention to what the bible says. I'm sorry if in other posts you've said you know the bible, I haven't seen those posts, but clearly if you have, you are misunderstanding.

God doesn't sit up there and count our sins. I've never read that anywhere in the bible.

However, for those who do not come to Christ, in the end, their sin of disbelief is what sends them to hell. That's regarding your second portion I highlighted in blue.

On your first portion highlited in blue above, God does not micromanage us in any way. We have complete free will, and are even freeer in Christ than before Christ.

There is now no longer condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.. So no, he doesn't judge our every move.

Though it is written that the Father is on the throne, and Jesus to His right hand side, God is Spirit, not confined as you are seeing it.

I am in no fear of angering God. I am indwelled with the Holy Spirit. There is no need to fear God.

However, some who do not believe do fear God, not all though. And some believers also fear God, but as they grow in Him they will see there is no need to as a Christian.

Mike completely disagrees, and claims that God does keep a tally of sins. What is your answer to him?
How common is that belief?
 
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heron

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Why are you so afraid to answer this question?
I'm not afraid. I just find it pointless.
It is baiting, it doesn't answer the OP question, and he has no obligation to answer any of our questions.

I would suggest Jungle Medicine (by the Shamana that I met), and the Cosmic Serpent first. It's a lot of food for thought.

I agree that it is a supernatural process of healing.

When it comes to the casting out of demons, I believe there is a very true spiritual world. However, I don't know if it is divided up into Angels vs. Demons.

I think this perception comes from so many spirits having mixed personalities -- they come across as benevolent at the outset.

I remember a documentary on spirits in a [Peruvian? Chilean?] village, where the reporters followed around an elder of the town. He was plagued by the same demons that he worshipped, and kept telling them to treat him better. He visited the shaman often, and spent much of the family money on removing the spirits' voices in his head.

He had been respected in the town for years, for his connections with these recognized and welcomed spirits.

He sacrificed the required animals, he stayed up nights arguing with his demons, he vowed to do whatever they wanted, but they persisted. Finally he jumped off a cliff to be rid of them.

From what I have seen, people give demons power.
I completely agree.

For example, when someone is christian, they may talk about this or that being evil, inviting demons, such as Ouija boards. Most people see them as manmade objects only believed in by those who are childish enough to. Ironically, those who believe in Jesus are often the ones the most afraid.
And fear can open the door... feeling as though something is inevitable.

Of what I have read about Ayahuasca, which is quite fascinating, is that the shamans may sometimes choose to turn to the dark side, and shoot poisin "darts", invisible darts that are shot in the spiritual world, causing physical damage to the person it hits.
I read a Christian book on this, and was surprised how much sense it made. That was years ago, and I haven't heard people refer to darts since. The book was Spiritual Warfare, by Frank Hultgren... I think it was independently published; he has been a professor or board member at Oral Roberts U.

However, part of its effect relies on the person believing that it will work. Its as if you enable the person's power by your faith in it.
Yes. I've been amazed at how easily I can be set free of things simply by resisting... and how overcome I can feel when I allow fears and despair to cycle in my head.

When The Exorcist came out, I recall interviews where one person said, "I don't know if I believe in God, but I know I believe in the devil, so I started going to church again."
Ha ha, yeah... I remember that.

I don't know enough about the healing of the spirit, but of those that I have talked to, they often talk about the healing properties of Aya in both phsical, emotional, and spiritual ways.

It would be interesting to see if science can measure the ability of spiritual healing, and its effect on the body.
I have seen some imaging of energy levels in the body... heat where healing occurs. But I think this is hard to get funding for, as the process does not benefit any manufacturer.



 
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heron

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Tthis forum is called "Questions by Non-Christians", and you are using it as an invitation to ask me to become Christian.

I was simply confused about my brother-in-law's response
Yes, and you were clear that you were just seeking understanding.

Even in the womb, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
This is a lame response, but it could represent how early our spirits join with our bodies.
Jer 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
I'll just let it go at that, and ignore the question. (-;

The Bible is very clear on this. The one who tallies our every move is Satan. He will be the one accusing us before God at the judgment. If we believe in Christ, then Jesus has only to utter three words and God remembers nothing of our past sins. Those words--It is Finished.
:thumbsup:
People who have had oppression from demons will vouch for this -- accusation comes from sources out to destroy you, not the ones that offer to lift you up and blot out all your transgressions.


EM abilities are considered supernatural just because they are not understood. Thus, they don't fall under the mantle of good or evil. They can be used for either
Good description.

I was evil, and therefore, and enemy to God, so she was vindicated.
Sad.
We have to remember that many people turn to God because they find help in Him. They come out of desperation, lack of control in life, and they cling to verses and people that will lift them out of their ruts.
These are the same people representing the gospel in its entirety, and not always doing well with it. Some have read only the verses that benefited, taken advice that happened to work, and followed theologies of people they respect. We aren't all experts in the heart of God.
The righteous will be glad when they see God's vengeance
Remember that Psalm 58:10 was written when David was frustrated that the Philistines had taken over parts of his homeland, and several countries were continually invading and trying to take over. Blood was inevitable in battle. Read Psalm 59 -- it's very clearly about defending the territory. Anyone who tries to make this into an end times prophecy is shooting at plastic ducks.

[FONT=arial,] Saul not only pushed back the Ammonites in Transjordan, but by his victories over the Philistines, notably as a follow-up of Jonathan's brilliant rout of the Philistine garrison at Michmash (1 Samuel 14:1-46), he also broke the Philistine monopoly on iron. ...
[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,] When Saul and David broke the power of the Philistines, the iron-smelting formula became public property, and the metal was popularized in Israel. The result was an economic revolution, making possible a higher standard of living. The struggle against the Philistines was, accordingly, a war of survival, justly celebrated in song and story. [/FONT] [the Psalms][FONT=arial,]
[/FONT]


http://www.theology.edu/lec15.htm


David had dual trauma--despite his passion to defend his country, His king was also hunting him down out of personal jealousy. Attacks came from all sides.
 
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FriarErasmus

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Do you believe this is a literal sense?

Also, in Quitting Religion without Quitting God, Zeller suggests that Jesus died for the sins of all, and is the Saviour of all, and that salvation isn't something that is "activated" by something we do. It's something that is done.

I thought about it for a while, and it makes sense.
For example, if soldiers went to war to protect your freedom, does it matter whether you accept that freedom or not? Your freedom is protected, whether you acknowledge it or not.

In the same way, I think that it's possible that Jesus is everyone's Saviour. The idea that he is only your Saviour when you say he is makes it so that man, in a sense, saves himself by his actions.

Zeller backs up his theory with a number of things.
For example, in his imagined interveiw, the woman witnessing to him says that Jesus died for his sins. He says, "Hooray!" She then says, "But you must accept him as your Saviour." He replies, "Why would I want to believe something that isn't true?"
The woman is confused, and he explains, "First, You say that Jesus died for my sins, but unless I accept him, then he didn't. So which is it? Did he die for my sins or not? Because I only want to believe what is true."

He continues, asking her about his 15 year old niece who was questioning whether she wanted to follow Jesus, but was killed in a car accident. When asked about her fate, the woman says that unfortunately, she is in hell, going through tortures none of us could even imagine. When asked about why that is just, she replies, "Well, wouldn't you torture someone who didn't love you?" He replies, "No! Not for 5 Minutes!"

In the end, with a great illustration of why non-christians are repulsed, and the illogic, he, a Christian author, shows how a nonbeliever is so put off by a questionable approach to Christianity that is prevalent today.

What do you think about that - the idea that Jesus took away the sins of the world (regardless of our choice), and that he did indeed undo the devil's work?
Simply put, Hell is separation from God. Not God "tormenting" us, but but torment, simply because of being cut off from him. On Earth, we are never cut off from him. We either "face" him and "pursue" him, or we "turn our back" to him, but he is always there. Now, to your question, Did Jesus take away all of the sins of the world and indeed undo the Devil's works? Yes. BUT you cannot stop there. If you choose to live apart from him, to not accept that he in fact did this for you, you are deciding not to enter into heaven. His rules state that he (Christ) is the only way to heaven, and none may come to the Father (God) except through him.

Let me give you a better example of what is meant by us having to accept his gift of salvation:

Imagine you are living on the street, filthy, covered only in rags and misery. Now imagine a man (ie Christ) sees your condition, and sees that there are millions like you. He has compassion on you and the others, and buys millions of multi bedroom mansions as gifts for you and those others that need homes (He's exceptionally rich...). He approaches you with the keys to one of the houses (which also opens the gates to the development/city), the deed, and a contract specifically laying out that the entire transaction is legit, and that if you would only sign here, and take the keys and deed, you will own the house, and never have to return to your old miserable ways (you still can choose to, but that is an entirely different discussion). Let me ask your question again, in a slightly different way: If you choose to reject the deed, keys, and do not wish to sign your name to the document, does this negate the fact that the house was bought for you? Does this mean that you own the house anyways, that his gift is yours even though you rejected it? Also, if you were to later, having rejected his gift, enter into that home of your own accord (without owning the home, and without invitation at this point), would not the Law require that you be considered a trespasser and be thrown back out onto the street, or even out of the development/city?

Salvation is like that. It is already bought and paid for, but we still must accept the gift, or it is not ours. If we choose to reject the gift and die (this is like being thrown out of the development/city with no keys), we never will own the gift, and forever will be unable to accept the gift (can't get back in... locked out because of our own decision). Death is FINAL without having the key to the city (rebirth and everlasting life make up that key... nice gift, eh?). Does this mean that the gift was not given for all? Does this mean that it is by our own efforts that the gift was ours, or that the giver took care of everything so that the gift could be ours?

Faith is not as black and white or cut and dry as a lot of people seem to think, and this is one of those areas where the answer is both, rather than only one. He both paid for all of the sins of everyone in the world and requires us to accept the gift or we will be judged for our actions and consequently will be left out of heaven and placed where everyone else resides who chose this path (lots of miserable people surrounded by lots of angels who hate God because they have been thrown out of the "city" for their actions as well... they love to torment anything that God loves, and God still loves those that chose separation, and I firmly believe he cries and hurts for each and every one of them that chose to turn away from him rather than accept the gift.)

God has written the Laws, given us the easiest loophole possible, but so many people just look at it and say "what's the catch?" or "I'm not signing up for anything" or "I don't need your charity, I can do this all on my own," all the while feeling more miserable and more filthy, and finally being left outside the city to rot because they have decided that is where they'd rather be.

I hope this analogy has helped you to see why it is both a gift given for all and something we must accept.
 
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phoenixgw

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"Existence is suffering," teaches the Buddha, isn't that right? And it is the goal of Buddhists to escape this suffering.

However, for the Christian, suffering is the crucible that purifies our faith & strengthens our character.

"In this (living hope) you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed" (1 Peter 1:6,7 NIV).
 
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noma

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Beanieboy,

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I thought I would give you an Eastern Orthodox perspective of what I read that you say, as well as Orthodox answers (as best as I am able, being that I am a sinner).

The practice is that you push the negative electromagnetic field away, and replace it with your own healthy em field.

I am confused. What is a "negative electromagnetic field"? What is a "healthy em field"? In physics, electromagnetic fields are not negative or positive, as they are directional vector fields (vectors can be defined positive or negative, it's a relative thing). So what you are talking about likely has nothing to do with physics. Is this some sort of spiritual force? A different dimension? A realization? What do you mean when you say "em field"?

In the meantime, my sister and brother-in-law were troubled by it. It has been experimented with in hospitals. The bible talks of the laying on of hands to heal. Even from a lay perspective, it feels good to be held when you are feeling sick or sad.

Do you have any list of peer-reviewed publications where you find this being tested to any effect? I don't want to sound rude; I'm just curious where you get your information, so I may learn more about this.

Laying on of hands certainly can heal, but it is not seen as the laying on of hands, or the person's power, but Christ's power within the person that causes healing.

What you are talking about is certainly outside the Tradition of the Church, outside of Christian understanding or experience (the laying on of hands you refer to is not at all what St. James refers to). That does not make it wrong, by any stretch of the imagination. Church Tradition is not about medical science. The principles of vaccination and germ theory are not found wihtin the Scriptures.

This is why I would be interested to learn more about the methods. I know nothing about these possible medical techniques you discuss.

Somehow, this was translated into my mom worried about me drifting from the faith. My missionary brother-in-law agreed to drive me to the airport to put me on the right track, as a favor to my mother. He asked me if there was a lot of new age practice in the city, and I said that I knew of someone that did the I Ching, Buddhists, etc., but there is nothing "new" about New Age.

Scripture says very-much the same thing. ?There is nothing new under the sun.? So any innovation can actually find its roots in very old belief. We as Orthodox accept that everything started with God, so every idea had to have its origins with Him somehow. But that does not mean that every old idea is true, or correct, or good. There have been many bad ideas perpetuated over the ages. Arguably, almost all ideas are bad in some way, almost all of them fall short of perfection. They are always warped, distorted, simplified, and so don't hold the beauty of reality. The New Age has some very beautiful, very true things about it. It appreciates the beauty and blessing of Nature, and the goodness of the human person. But I believe that it falls far short of other ways of life.

He asked me how my life with God was, and I said that it changed drastically. For one thing, I no longer pray to an external God, but pray within.

What do you see prayer as? What is prayer to you?

Orthodox hold that prayer is a communion of words (though not only of words), where we speak with God and the saints. Where, when we pray as a community, God reaches down from heaven to earth, being present in our midst, and bringing Heaven down all around us, with all its hosts, and we truly do not know where we are. We are called to pray without ceasing, even in our sleep, meditating constantly upon God.

I said, "Wow. I'm sorry that's all you see, because I think you are a great person."

He said, "The only good in me is who God is."

I said, "So, nonchristians have no good?"

This is a bit of a logical jump. We must accept first that the only good comes from God, and that non-Christians do not have God. We, as Orthodox Christians, accept that good does indeed come from God, and from Him alone. But we do not accept that non-Christians do not have God in their lives in some way. Their very existence, their very being, was formed by God, and so He is intimately connected in their lives also.

I asked, "Then you haven't asked Jesus into your heart? Why look to heaven if Jesus is dwelling inside you? If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, why look up at the clouds? Don't you find it unsettling when someone says, "Are you there God? Are you listening?" when they claim to have them in their heart, and God is right beside them? Isn't it odd to look up, and wonder if God is looking down from the clouds, or the stars, yet read that God is everywhere at once?"

God is certainly above us, and also within us (more or less, depending on the person). But ?in us? does not mean the same thing as ?part of us?. We believe that God is present everywhere, but not imminent everywhere. Otherwise, everywhere would be equally special, which is the same as saying that nowhere would be special. Why go to Church, when it is just as holy and noble to be in the fields? Why be by your mother's side when she dies? Is it not the same to be anywhere else? For God is with her and with you, and you would be united.

This philosophy is what I like to call ?I'll just stay in bed? philosophy. It does have many merits, but to the extreme, it is often just an excuse for laziness. I am not saying that is how you use it, but that is a chief weakness and temptation of such a view. Certainly, I believe that God is more in some things and some people than in other things and other people. This is why Orthodox pray to saints. We pray not to the saints themselves, but to God within them, as He is so wonderfully alive within them, reflected and illuminating their own lives as examples for us.

When we praise ourselves, instead of God, we are praising the part of us that is uncreated. But none of us is uncreated. So we praise nothing. But this is exactly what sin is. When we praise ourselves, our ?ego? (as the Buddhists call it), we end up deep within sin, lost in a void within which there is no hope.

I said, "For me, I have never been able to tell where I end and God begins. Maybe I am part of God, and God isn't a seperate entity. I'm not saying that everyone should bow down before me, because everyone else is part of God as well. However, knowing that if I can hear my thoughts, then God hears my thoughts, is much more reassuring than praying up to the clouds, hearing no response, and hoping that God isn't asleep or watching TV, and paying attention."

I love what you say here, for it is so profound! It is often difficult to figure out, as a Christian, where God ends and we begin. There is certainly a delineation. Saint Gregory of Palamas called it the difference between essence and energy. But that delineation can be very difficult to distinguish sometimes, and absolute at other times. What God's essence is, we cannot understand, it is beyond us, bigger than us, forever out of our reach. We can only say what it is not, and not what it is. God's energy (His activity within us, and Divine Nature growing within us), however, is how we enter into a relationship with Him. As we enter into this relationship, we partake in the divine nature. We become one with God in terms of His energies. As our God Jesus Christ states in the Scriptures, "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them" (John 17:22-26). From this we see the difference from the Son and the rest of the world, the unknowable essence of God, and also how we are to become one with God, partaking in the divine nature. But these are difficult mysteries, and I understand them little. I pray always to grow in understanding, though I am a wretched sinner...

He tried to turn the conversation around to how we are sinners...

This is exactly where I was going! We are sinners. There is something wrong with us. We are sick. We haven't become one with God the Father yet. We haven't partaken of the divine nature. After all, if we had, there would be no war. If Buddhists had, there would be no monastic squabbling. They'd all have gotten to Nirvana by now (even the Dahli Lama admits that he is far from Nirvana). We live in a sick world that tends to make us worse and worse, destroying our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. This destruction God cannot look upon. God cannot look at sin itself. Sin is the lack of created things. Sin, in a platonic sense, doesn't exist. So God cannot look upon something that does not exist. Even Satan himself has some good in him, for he still exists after a fashion. And God looks upon Satan in Job. He certainly looks upon us. As we are cleansed in the waters of Baptism from sin, God looks upon us as children, born again of water and the Spirit. We have far to grow, and in a fallen world, it isn't easy. We are diseased, but the cure now lives within us, cleansing us, sometimes by fire.

We agreed to disagree, he believing that I was on the highway to hell, and me unable to convince him that the plane only goes to Minneapolis.
A good thing you didn't fly Western. I think they sometimes make it to Minneapolis with connections at the Stygia, or one of the other lower regions.

Do you think that what ever you are is simply sin?

No. Nor do I think anyone or anything is ?simply sin?. Anything ?simply sin? wouldn't exist. None of it could be created.

Do you think that me brother-in-law was right?

Part of what he said was right. Part of what you said was. I think, to be blunt, that he is closer to the Truth. For one needs to know he is lost in order to be found. Once you are found, though, I think you will find yourself in a much better place.

If you have any questions about Orthodoxy, you can ask them here, PM me, or ask in the Orthodox forums.

If you allow me, I will pray for your journey.

Paul
 
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Beanieboy

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"Existence is suffering," teaches the Buddha, isn't that right? And it is the goal of Buddhists to escape this suffering.

However, for the Christian, suffering is the crucible that purifies our faith & strengthens our character.

"In this (living hope) you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed" (1 Peter 1:6,7 NIV).
That's a bit of a simplification and misunderstanding of Buddhism.

There are four noble truths.
The first is that suffering in life exists.
The second is the cause of suffering, which is desire and ignorance (Surely, you don't mean that Christians seek out desire, such as material gain, immortality on this earth, and craving pleasure, and ignorance, which is, not seeing the world as it truly is, and so, being full of greed, anger, hatred, and anger.
The 3rd is the end of this suffering and trancending the physical plane of the earth, no longer held to it's desires and seeing the world as it is.
The 4th is the Path to englightenment through the eightfold path.

I can go into detail if you wish.

You are suggesting that Buddhists avoid all suffering. Buddhist monks live a life of poverty, give up material wealth, let go of ego, acknowledge and meditate on the fact that everything is temporary, including their own bodies, etc. That's "suffering" by most people's standards, but when they can live that life in joy, they no longer are tied to materials, desires, selfishness, anger, revenge, etc.

That's the "suffering" that they give up.
 
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Beanieboy

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Beanieboy,

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I thought I would give you an Eastern Orthodox perspective of what I read that you say, as well as Orthodox answers (as best as I am able, being that I am a sinner).
I really appreciate yours (and others') well thought out responses. Thank you very much.

I am confused. What is a "negative electromagnetic field"? What is a "healthy em field"? In physics, electromagnetic fields are not negative or positive, as they are directional vector fields (vectors can be defined positive or negative, it's a relative thing). So what you are talking about likely has nothing to do with physics. Is this some sort of spiritual force? A different dimension? A realization? What do you mean when you say "em field"?
http://www.shiftinaction.com/node/123
Electromagnetic fields are scientic fact:
They've photographed the electric field of leaves, people, etc.
Do you have any list of peer-reviewed publications where you find this being tested to any effect? I don't want to sound rude; I'm just curious where you get your information, so I may learn more about this.
[/quuote]
There may be.
There is a lot of information out about it on the web.
For me, it was the equivalent to someone saying, "Want to use a netty pot?" or "Want to drink some herbal tea for your cold?"
It was simply an alternative procedure, and anything new is usually considered "evil" or ridiculous, as it was when people had a theory that people became sick from bacteria that was invisible to the human eye, and not demons.
[quote

What you are talking about is certainly outside the Tradition of the Church,
Certainly. It's outside the realm of science as well.
However, most Lutherans that I went to church with would also be freaked out seeing people healed by the laying on of hands, as I did.
This is why I would be interested to learn more about the methods. I know nothing about these possible medical techniques you discuss.
I hardly know much about it myself, to be honest.

The New Age has some very beautiful, very true things about it. It appreciates the beauty and blessing of Nature, and the goodness of the human person. But I believe that it falls far short of other ways of life.
I haven't seen that.
I've met some amazing people that are Hindi, who are to treat everyone they come in contact with as a god. When I ask Paulavi what she saw as the difference between her country and the US, she said, "We go to work, come home, eat dinner, and then visit our friends. You go to work, come home, and watch TV. It's so selfish not to share yourselves."
Considering that 75% of the US is Christian, yet most people are obsessed with TV, fashion, status and material wealth, she seemed far more grounded.
The same can be said for many Buddhists that I've met.
One of my good friends that is a Buddhist told me that Following the 8fold steps to enlightenment is much harder than anything he had to follow in Catholicism, because Catholicism taught the forgiveness of sin after you did it, whereas, Buddhism has you be mindful as you even think about doing what would be considered the equivalent to "sin", to prevent you from doing it in the first place.

What do you see prayer as? What is prayer to you?
Simple communication with God - and it's two ways - God communicating to me, and me to God. (so many people thinking you just talk to God.)

I worked as a Bible Camp Counselor, and I was amazed encountering high school students (as well as fellow college friends) who said they didn't know how to pray.

I've prayed and talked to God since ever I can remember, mostly because God was often my only friend. The church strangely gave them the understanding that there are the right words to say, the right vocabulary (righteous, pious, mercy, sanctify - most which they don't even understand.)
It's not that complicated.

Orthodox hold that prayer is a communion of words (though not only of words), where we speak with God and the saints. Where, when we pray as a community, God reaches down from heaven to earth, being present in our midst, and bringing Heaven down all around us, with all its hosts, and we truly do not know where we are. We are called to pray without ceasing, even in our sleep, meditating constantly upon God.



This is a bit of a logical jump. We must accept first that the only good comes from God, and that non-Christians do not have God. We, as Orthodox Christians, accept that good does indeed come from God, and from Him alone. But we do not accept that non-Christians do not have God in their lives in some way. Their very existence, their very being, was formed by God, and so He is intimately connected in their lives also.
I agree that everyone is a part of God simply by his very existence.
God is certainly above us, and also within us (more or less, depending on the person). But ?in us? does not mean the same thing as ?part of us?. We believe that God is present everywhere, but not imminent everywhere. Otherwise, everywhere would be equally special, which is the same as saying that nowhere would be special. Why go to Church, when it is just as holy and noble to be in the fields? Why be by your mother's side when she dies? Is it not the same to be anywhere else? For God is with her and with you, and you would be united.
Church is for man, not God, in my opinion.
The architecture is meant to make you look up.
People look at the cross (one made by a man) when they talk to God in the front of the church.

It's not unlike a statue of the Buddha. It's something to help you focus. The problem is that so many people see a church as where God lives, and the idea that one can build a house for God, and then contain him in it like a bird cage, when he is part of the solar system, is quite silly.
This philosophy is what I like to call ?I'll just stay in bed? philosophy. It does have many merits, but to the extreme, it is often just an excuse for laziness. I am not saying that is how you use it, but that is a chief weakness and temptation of such a view. Certainly, I believe that God is more in some things and some people than in other things and other people. This is why Orthodox pray to saints. We pray not to the saints themselves, but to God within them, as He is so wonderfully alive within them, reflected and illuminating their own lives as examples for us.

When we praise ourselves, instead of God, we are praising the part of us that is uncreated. But none of us is uncreated. So we praise nothing. But this is exactly what sin is. When we praise ourselves, our ?ego? (as the Buddhists call it), we end up deep within sin, lost in a void within which there is no hope.
I agree. Buddhists don't praise themselves. However, they do revere themselves, treat themselves like a temple of light.
They focus on being creatures of light and loving kindness, rather than "wretched sinners."

I love what you say here, for it is so profound! It is often difficult to figure out, as a Christian, where God ends and we begin. There is certainly a delineation. Saint Gregory of Palamas called it the difference between essence and energy. But that delineation can be very difficult to distinguish sometimes, and absolute at other times. What God's essence is, we cannot understand, it is beyond us, bigger than us, forever out of our reach. We can only say what it is not, and not what it is. God's energy (His activity within us, and Divine Nature growing within us), however, is how we enter into a relationship with Him. As we enter into this relationship, we partake in the divine nature. We become one with God in terms of His energies. As our God Jesus Christ states in the Scriptures, "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them" (John 17:22-26). From this we see the difference from the Son and the rest of the world, the unknowable essence of God, and also how we are to become one with God, partaking in the divine nature. But these are difficult mysteries, and I understand them little. I pray always to grow in understanding, though I am a wretched sinner...
Do you believe that is how God sees you? As a wretched sinner?
And if not, why do you insist that you are?

This is exactly where I was going! We are sinners. There is something wrong with us. We are sick. We haven't become one with God the Father yet. We haven't partaken of the divine nature. After all, if we had, there would be no war. If Buddhists had, there would be no monastic squabbling. They'd all have gotten to Nirvana by now (even the Dahli Lama admits that he is far from Nirvana). We live in a sick world that tends to make us worse and worse, destroying our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. This destruction God cannot look upon. God cannot look at sin itself. Sin is the lack of created things. Sin, in a platonic sense, doesn't exist. So God cannot look upon something that does not exist. Even Satan himself has some good in him, for he still exists after a fashion. And God looks upon Satan in Job. He certainly looks upon us. As we are cleansed in the waters of Baptism from sin, God looks upon us as children, born again of water and the Spirit. We have far to grow, and in a fallen world, it isn't easy. We are diseased, but the cure now lives within us, cleansing us, sometimes by fire.


Part of what he said was right. Part of what you said was. I think, to be blunt, that he is closer to the Truth. For one needs to know he is lost in order to be found. Once you are found, though, I think you will find yourself in a much better place.

If you have any questions about Orthodoxy, you can ask them here, PM me, or ask in the Orthodox forums.

If you allow me, I will pray for your journey.

Paul
Thanks. I welcome your prayer, and you shall be in mine.
I believe that from a Christian perspective, he had some of it right, but the negativity, that he is only sin, was rather depressing. He couldn't rejoice in who God made, but rather, be weighted down in guilt and shame.

I don't believe that is why God created people - to live feeling bad about themselves, thinking themselves as nothing, etc.

People who do have that negative self image are usually the people that end up doing negative things to themselves.
 
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