My brother-in-law's response

[Beanieboy]

About 20 years ago, I was home on a break from college. My brothers and sisters were there, and my sister-in-law had been studying energy fields of the body. Since I had a cold, she put her hand an inch or so away, and felt for the heat. She felt it exactly where I felt the most sick - near my back in my lungs. The practice is that you push the negative electromagnetic field away, and replace it with your own healthy em field.

I thought, "yeah, worth a shot, what will it hurt."

In the meantime, my sister and brother-in-law were troubled by it. It has been experimented with in hospitals. The bible talks of the laying on of hands to heal. Even from a lay perspective, it feels good to be held when you are feeling sick or sad. I think there is something to the em fields, and they can even be photographed.

Somehow, this was translated into my mom worried about me drifting from the faith. My missionary brother-in-law agreed to drive me to the airport to put me on the right track, as a favor to my mother. He asked me if there was a lot of new age practice in the city, and I said that I knew of someone that did the I Ching, Buddhists, etc., but there is nothing "new" about New Age.

He asked me how my life with God was, and I said that it changed drastically. For one thing, I no longer pray to an external God, but pray within.

He said, "When I look inside myself, all I see is darkness, sin and evil."

I said, "Wow. I'm sorry that's all you see, because I think you are a great person."

He said, "The only good in me is who God is."

I said, "So, nonchristians have no good?"

He said, "I don't know. I just know that I never look inside to myself when I am in prayer."

I asked, "Then you haven't asked Jesus into your heart? Why look to heaven if Jesus is dwelling inside you? If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, why look up at the clouds? Don't you find it unsettling when someone says, "Are you there God? Are you listening?" when they claim to have them in their heart, and God is right beside them? Isn't it odd to look up, and wonder if God is looking down from the clouds, or the stars, yet read that God is everywhere at once?"

He replied, "Well, I would never claim that I am God."

I said, "For me, I have never been able to tell where I end and God begins. Maybe I am part of God, and God isn't a seperate entity. I'm not saying that everyone should bow down before me, because everyone else is part of God as well. However, knowing that if I can hear my thoughts, then God hears my thoughts, is much more reassuring than praying up to the clouds, hearing no response, and hoping that God isn't asleep or watching TV, and paying attention."

He tried to turn the conversation around to how we are sinners, and that God couldn't look upon us unless we were covered in the blood of Jesus, but God did look upon the earth in the OT. He even talked to people in the OT. And Jesus had no problem looking at the tax collectors and prostitutes. He only had a problem with those who exalted themselves by condemning others, those who imposed burdens on others while forgiving themselves, etc.

Jesus had no problem looking upon mankind, and if he and the Father are one, then the Father did not have a problem as well.
In fact, on Good Friday, when the Cecil B Demille versions have the clouds darken as if God is shutting the curtains, one is assuming that God is no longer in all places at once, or that God can't see us when it storms or is foggy. It's kind of ridiculous.

We agreed to disagree, he believing that I was on the highway to hell, and me unable to convince him that the plane only goes to Minneapolis.

Can you comment on that?
Do you think that what ever you are is simply sin?
If that's true, wouldn't that make all non-christians 100% evil?
Do you think that me brother-in-law was right?

 

[MikeMcK]

double post...please delete

 

[MikeMcK]

I don't understand the part about God not being able to "look upon us". Not only does the Bible not say that God can't look upon us, it says that He will look into our hearts to judge us.

So, when God judges you on the day of judgement, do you believe you'll be innocent or guilty? Why?

 

[Beanieboy]

I don't understand the part about God not being able to "look upon us". Not only does the Bible not say that God can't look upon us, it says that He will look into our hearts to judge us.

So, when God judges you on the day of judgement, do you believe you'll be innocent or guilty? Why?

I was taught (as is sometimes taught in Lutheranism) that Adam sinned, and so God's relationship with man was broken. Jesus blood covered that sin, and so when God sees those who accept Jesus, it's through the proverbial rose tinted, or blood tinted, glasses, and looks upon us in perfection.

I had been taught that a number of times, from Sunday School to adult education.

For example this website:

He cries out in a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? God had to, after all, Jesus had to bear the sins of the world, He became our sins and God could not look upon Him.

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/inhiswill/page6.html

This will be represented in most Passion Play movies by the clouds growing dark, as if they cover God's eyes. (God has eyes? He can turn his face? Who has made whom in his own image??)

What do I think? Well, first of all, I'm Buddhist, but I don't think there will be one judgement day where a catalog of all the good and bad you have done will be brought before everyone. If so, it's going to be a long, boring day, unless you are a gossip.

I have a really hard time believing that God created us to toil for him, worship him, and obey him in order to avoid his wrath, and then hope we have some kind of reward at the end of our death.
Who would want a relationship with anyone like that?

 

[MikeMcK]

I was taught (as is sometimes taught in Lutheranism) that Adam sinned, and so God's relationship with man was broken. Jesus blood covered that sin, and so when God sees those who accept Jesus, it's through the proverbial rose tinted, or blood tinted, glasses, and looks upon us in perfection.

Yes and no.

Man's sin nature entered the world through Adam.

Because of our sin nature, we sin. That is, to break God's laws and rebell against Him.

By repenting of our sin and believing by faith that Jesus Christ, who is the sinless, Unblemished Lamb of God, went to the cross to take our punishment and died on our behalf, we're forgiven and we die to sin.

To say that God glosses over our sin or merely looks at it in a different light is a gross error. It is forgiven It is gone. We are made righteous through Christ and His atonement.

I had been taught that a number of times, from Sunday School to adult education.

Sounds like they were well meaning but, in their attempts to put it into words a young person could understand, botched it up.

I have a really hard time believing that God created us to toil for him, worship him, and obey him in order to avoid his wrath, and then hope we have some kind of reward at the end of our death.

I do, too. I'm sure glad that isn't what the Bible teaches.

What do I think? Well, first of all, I'm Buddhist, but I don't think there will be one judgement day where a catalog of all the good and bad you have done will be brought before everyone. If so, it's going to be a long, boring day, unless you are a gossip.

OK. So let me try this one more time:

When God judges you on the day of judgement, do you believe He will judge you to be innocent or guilty?

 

[Beanieboy]

Y
OK. So let me try this one more time:

When God judges you on the day of judgement, do you believe He will judge you to be innocent or guilty?

I'm a Buddhist.
I don't believe there is a God in the Christian sense, a Judgement Day in the Christian sense, Original sin, etc.

I believe there is Karma.
I believe in forgiveness.
I believe that I am to love my neighbor as myself.
I believe that I am to be a pure thought, which leads to purity of words and deeds.

I believe that God is us, and we are God. There is no separation, and because of that, we have the power to heal ourselves, heal each other, and heal the earth. I believe that God permeates in all things, and is seen the most in nature (the reason that we often retreat to nature, go for a walk in the woods, etc.) It resonates with ourselves.

So, will I be found guilty or innocent?
Both and neither.

The bible tells the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, suggesting that we serve God through serving each other - when ever you have done these things to the least, you have do so unto me.

He follows up by saying that not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Most Christians will say that if they confess Jesus as Lord, that they are saved.)

I don't believe there is a big book of every action I have done, the Book of Life, where God will go through and say, "Beanieboooooy, on March 29, 2007, you missed the subway, and said the "sh" word at 8:04 EST."

I don't believe God is petty. He knows my comings and goings, knows me better than I know myself. Why would he sit there like an accountant nitpicking?

For that matter, why would he just say, "yeah, well, after you were saved, none of your sins after that count," regardless of how grave they were? God works on our hearts if we seek him, and reveals himself through ourselves, and makes us one with him. He pays attention to our weaknesses, and heals us.

I won't approach God as a stranger. I speak to him constantly. That's why I don't quite understand questions like, "When God judges you," because that isn't God at all. When asked, "If I will be found innocent or guilty", I ask, "of what?" If you say, "Of sin", I say that we all have done something to harm another.
If you say that christians are forgiven, I say that that doesn't prevent their sins from harming others.

You can be Christian and insult people, be rude, etc. It's doesn't really make it any less of a sin than someone else who isn't "saved." It still causes damage.

If anything, if there is a judgement, God would be even more severe. If you knew it was wrong, and that it was against my commandments, and you claimed to love and serve me, why did you do it anyway???

One would expect that from the unsaved.

And if the unsaved act more loving than the Christian, what kind of steward is that Christian for Christ?

 

[Beanieboy]

Since we seem to be getting off base (in asking me whether I think that I will be innocent or guilty on Judgement Day), let me return to my original question.

Do you believe that all you are is evil, and all the good in you is God?

And if so, wouldn't that make the unsave 100% evil?

Is God "up there" somewhere? Do you look up when you pray?
Is God separate from us? Is God distiguishably different from yourself?

 

[tapero]

Hi Beanieboy,

Appreciate your questions.

First thing, is you probably know about Romans 1. Here's some of it. It discusses the human condition.

It's rather long, you can skip this if you like, but it's important to my answer:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Before Christ, this is our state. After Christ we are seen as righteous in His eyes. We become a new person in Christ. He no longer sees us as above in Romans 1. However, we all still struggle with many of Roman 1 sins mentioned and others as well. Though on salvation He gives us a new heart, we still struggle with our sins. Though throughout life, He helps us as we turn over these sins to Him, he changes us as we willingly give things over.

One example is selfishness. Many will admit that we are that way, self-centered, and we try to be Christ centered, but it's a battle we are always bringing to Christ for help for.

I don't think that all is evil. There is much good in man whether Christian or non Christian. We've all been made in His likeness and everything He made was good.

However, in God's eyes, all sin is seen as evil, all wrongdoing is sin.

To me now, as a Christian, I see that the good in me has come thru the washing of the word, through Jesus sacrfice for me and payment for my sins. I still have dark and evil thoughts that we often contend with, but of course do not act on those thoughts, though if all sin is dark and evil which it is, I have to say that I've sinned by acting on some thoughts. Thoughts are not sin, but the acting on something sinful such as lust is sin. Which of course can all remain hidden inside a man, and without anyone but God knowing.

There are sins that people see in us, the external ones, then there are the sins that most don't see unless it is exposed by their mouths and actions.

When I came to Christ, I with no prompting by man, but only by the Holy Spirit gave up and turned away from many external sins. However, it will be a lifetime of change for the inside sin.

So, I don't think we are all evil, except in the fact that by the fall of man, and our own partaking in sin we are committing evil acts. I think there is good in many people, both christian and non christian.

I think what God does again, is make Christians righteous in his eyes through Jesus.

Sometimes when I pray, I do look up. Have not quite understood why we look down, but it's a general practice. Probably to still our minds and contemplate. But I love looking to heaven and praying.

In regards to if God is separate. A Christian is indwelled with the Holy Spirit (God) when he believes. Can never lose that, nor be taken away no matter what happens. Can never lose salvation. Scripture says when we believed that the Holy Spirit indwelled us as a deposit guaranteeing our redemption (salvation.)

So in that sense yes, God is a part of us.

Then it is also written that God is in all and through all.

Can't fully grasp it, but since God the Father is Spirit and created all, somehow we all exist in Him. Jesus is fully God and man, now seated at the right hand of the Father.

On healing, brother, if we could heal ourselves there would be no sick. So I disagree with you. I hear you saying there's this possibility, but believe me, if there was a way it would be well known.

God says to see a doctor when we are ill, of course pray first to be healed. Not all are healed, though some are.

yes, we still sin and can hurt others deeply. Most hurt I've known as a Christian came through the hands of Christians. emotional hurt.

With the Lord, Lord scripture, that is written to those who never believed. Heres' the verse:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It's clear that they never knew God or He would know them, so these are to those decieved that believe by prophesying, driving out demons and performing miracles that they have done so through Christ. You see much of this in the church, especially on TV with certain pastors etc.

Of course we can not know another man's heart and need use discernment.

Well, I'll stop here. Just perusing your posts and answering as I went along to some of it.

take care,
tapero

 

[MikeMcK]

I'm a Buddhist.
I don't believe there is a God in the Christian sense, a Judgement Day in the Christian sense, Original sin, etc.

I understand that, but the premise of this thread is that there is a God "in the Christian sense".

I believe in forgiveness.

What about justice? Forgiveness is wonderful and God says that He does forgive those who repent and put their faith in Christ but the problem is that forgiveness simply for the sake of forgiveness, at the expense of punishment of wrongdoing isn't forgiveness at all, it's just sweeping the wrongdoing under the rug.

Let's say that a serial rapist is arrested and brought before a judge. He's found guilty on all counts but, at sentencing, the judge says "you've been found guilty on all counts but, just to show you what a great guy I am, I'm going to forgive you. You're free to go."

Would you say that that judge is a just judge? Of course you wouldn't. So if that judge isn't just for not upholding the law, how much more unjust would God be for not upholding the law and punishing evildoers?

I believe that I am to be a pure thought, which leads to purity of words and deeds.

So, are your words and deeds pure?

I believe that God is us, and we are God.

No. We are seperate and distinct beings apart from God. God is God and we are God's creations, subject to His judgement.

Do you believe that God sins?

So, will I be found guilty or innocent?
Both and neither.

There is no "both and neither". Either you've kept God's law or your haven't.

The bible tells the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, suggesting that we serve God through serving each other - when ever you have done these things to the least, you have do so unto me.

He follows up by saying that not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Most Christians will say that if they confess Jesus as Lord, that they are saved.)

The problem here is that Jesus is speaking to His followers, explaining the outward signs that will follow them, if they are truly His. He isn't speaking to sinnners, telling them that they can be saved by good works.

I don't believe there is a big book of every action I have done, the Book of Life, where God will go through and say, "Beanieboooooy, on March 29, 2007, you missed the subway, and said the "sh" word at 8:04 EST."

I don't believe God is petty. He knows my comings and goings, knows me better than I know myself. Why would he sit there like an accountant nitpicking?

That's like going into a courtroom and saying to the judge, "You honor, sure I know I killed those twenty-two people and it only took the jury ten minutes to convict me, but don't you think you're being a little petty by sending me to jail"?

If God doesn't punish sin, then He is not just.

For that matter, why would he just say, "yeah, well, after you were saved, none of your sins after that count," regardless of how grave they were?

He doesn't. All sin, either pre-salvation or post-salvation is a very serious matter in God's eyes.

I won't approach God as a stranger.

The Bible says that we are children of wrath and do not become children of God until we born again.

That's why I don't quite understand questions like, "When God judges you," because that isn't God at all.

Actually, Jesus taught very plainly that He will judge our sins.

When asked, "If I will be found innocent or guilty", I ask, "of what?" If you say, "Of sin", I say that we all have done something to harm another.

But that isn't what sin is. Sin is a transgression of God's law.

You can be Christian and insult people, be rude, etc. It's doesn't really make it any less of a sin than someone else who isn't "saved." It still causes damage.

Actually, the Bible tells us in 1 John that if you say you're a Christian but continue to sin, then you're not a Christian.

And if the unsaved act more loving than the Christian, what kind of steward is that Christian for Christ?

The issue isn't the amount of love we show, although showing love certainly is a good thing, it's wether or not we've kept God's laws.

Since we seem to be getting off base (in asking me whether I think that I will be innocent or guilty on Judgement Day), let me return to my original question.

It isn't off base at all. It's directly related to the OP.

So, do you believe that God will judge you to be innocent or guilty when you stand before Him on judgement day?

Do you believe that all you are is evil, and all the good in you is God?

I believe that all of us have broken God's laws, but can be forgiven and reconciled to Him by virtue of Christ's atonement and that we seek that forgiveness by repentance and faith in Christ.

Is God "up there" somewhere? Do you look up when you pray?

The Bible tells us that there is nowhere where God's presence isn't known. And, before you say it, that is referring to His omnipresence, not pantheism or panentheism.

Is God separate from us? Is God distiguishably different from yourself?

God is the Creator. I am His creation.

God is the judge. I am the one who will be judged.

God is Holy and Righteous and Just. I am a sinner.

 

[jak]

This incident happened twenty years ago? If you don't mind me asking, have things changed since then? What made you think of just this question to post, right now? Obviously it made a deep impression on you. Twenty years is a long time!

It would be difficult to answer your questions, because I guess Christians would see God differently. We think we are a little like Him, at least more so than other animals on planet earth! in that we can think and feel, and choose, and relate to others and understand goodness and beauty and love. But we don't believe that we are part of God.

Not only non-Christians, but certainly Christians too, we believe, have lost the innocence and sinlessness in which we were created. We now tend towards wickedness much more easily than towards goodness. In the best of our thoughts and actions, there is evil. We do not love our neighbour easily...none of us.

When Christians say Christ lives in them, they do not mean that they become God. Its just a way of saying that we have a new relationship with God, where we are acceptable to Him, through Christ, in a way we believe humans are not normally. So we are His children in a new way, we try to obey His commands, we have access to Him every moment, with the promise that he has forgiven us our sin, and is there to help us live our lives in a better way.

I'm not sure I have expressed myself well. Anyway! Hope this addition helps

 

[stutiw]

I just want to say, we all are sinners cause we are imperfect beings, now God loves us but he hates sin within us and wants us to realize that fact.

God send his son Jesus Christ, through whom we have receive salvation. For myself I truly believe, In God the Father, the son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. God send his only son in human form, to die for us and give victory, Jesus christ is ascended up in heaven and he is with us and dwells within our hearts means indirectly he is watching over us.

Let me give a simple analogy, If you love a person so dearly, you know the person is in your heart and even when the person is not around you, you still know that the person is around.

We have christ in our heart and he is with us, but we still look in heaven for him, this is natural....that comes with our understanding of God is looking at us.

 

[heron]

When I read your first post, it struck me that most of the responses people were giving you were canned answers. They were theology built on theology built on scriptures, and no one was really being honest with you about their personal opinions, misgivings, or experiences.

You were seeing something wrong, but it was interpreted in such a black-and-white way, that they condescended and made you the wrong one. You were also seeing something curiously scientific and possibly supernatural, but they went into a panic and assumed it would endanger you.

People don't always take time to research the unknown; it's easier to just push it into a corner.

I have Christian friends who are nurses, who have taken this training as part of their jobs. They happen to be people who also believe in Jesus' charge for us to heal spontaneously, and were concerned that this training might lead them into a darker realm. But they concluded there was nothing religious or dangerous in that particular training.

Yes, there are groups that call upon spirits to heal. But you were talking about electromagnetism, which is simply part of God's design.

 

[heron]

Oh yeah, your questions.

Do you believe that all you are is evil, and all the good in you is God? And if so, wouldn't that make the unsave 100% evil?

The people who implied that were not thinking -- they were quoting someone else. We have the potential for evil, and we are naturally driven by self-preservation. This focus on self can lead us to do some horrible things, as well as harm others unknowingly.

In the face of ultimate purity, we can't honestly say that we have never had a bad thought, or acted in detriment to someone else.

When you're done wearing a shirt that doesn't really get dirty, you still know it's soiled with body oils and dust mites and flakes of skin. So you still send it through the wash, whether it looks dirty or not.

Some people get stain treatment, and live out legal and natural consequences of their actions. But Jesus' redemption was a once-for-all promise of cleansing. We are not permanently kept indoors for playing in the mud -- just reprimanded and sent to wash off.

Do you look up when you pray?

No. I have a sense that He is around or in me... similar to what you describe. I don't need to shout. (-; But I see Him as a separate person.

Vine-branches
Father-children, joint heirs

 

[Beanieboy]

I understand that, but the premise of this thread is that there is a God "in the Christian sense".



What about justice? Forgiveness is wonderful and God says that He does forgive those who repent and put their faith in Christ but the problem is that forgiveness simply for the sake of forgiveness, at the expense of punishment of wrongdoing isn't forgiveness at all, it's just sweeping the wrongdoing under the rug.

Let's say that a serial rapist is arrested and brought before a judge. He's found guilty on all counts but, at sentencing, the judge says "you've been found guilty on all counts but, just to show you what a great guy I am, I'm going to forgive you. You're free to go."

Would you say that that judge is a just judge? Of course you wouldn't. So if that judge isn't just for not upholding the law, how much more unjust would God be for not upholding the law and punishing evildoers?



So, are your words and deeds pure?



No. We are seperate and distinct beings apart from God. God is God and we are God's creations, subject to His judgement.

Do you believe that God sins?



There is no "both and neither". Either you've kept God's law or your haven't.



The problem here is that Jesus is speaking to His followers, explaining the outward signs that will follow them, if they are truly His. He isn't speaking to sinnners, telling them that they can be saved by good works.



That's like going into a courtroom and saying to the judge, "You honor, sure I know I killed those twenty-two people and it only took the jury ten minutes to convict me, but don't you think you're being a little petty by sending me to jail"?

If God doesn't punish sin, then He is not just.



He doesn't. All sin, either pre-salvation or post-salvation is a very serious matter in God's eyes.



The Bible says that we are children of wrath and do not become children of God until we born again.



Actually, Jesus taught very plainly that He will judge our sins.



But that isn't what sin is. Sin is a transgression of God's law.



Actually, the Bible tells us in 1 John that if you say you're a Christian but continue to sin, then you're not a Christian.



The issue isn't the amount of love we show, although showing love certainly is a good thing, it's wether or not we've kept God's laws.



It isn't off base at all. It's directly related to the OP.

So, do you believe that God will judge you to be innocent or guilty when you stand before Him on judgement day?



I believe that all of us have broken God's laws, but can be forgiven and reconciled to Him by virtue of Christ's atonement and that we seek that forgiveness by repentance and faith in Christ.



The Bible tells us that there is nowhere where God's presence isn't known. And, before you say it, that is referring to His omnipresence, not pantheism or panentheism.



God is the Creator. I am His creation.

God is the judge. I am the one who will be judged.

God is Holy and Righteous and Just. I am a sinner.

With all due respect, you have the right to believe that. However, this isn't the point of the thread.

I invite you to go to Non-Christian Religion to discuss this further, but my salvation has nothing to do with this thread topic.

 

[Beanieboy]

This incident happened twenty years ago? If you don't mind me asking, have things changed since then? What made you think of just this question to post, right now? Obviously it made a deep impression on you. Twenty years is a long time!

It's one of those weird things that simply sticks in your head, and I've always wondered about. As a Buddhist, I meditate on the fact that I do not have to become a Buddha, but that i already am, and once I can see that, everything else sheds away. You meditate imagining yourself full of light, a vessel of light. That's why I found it a bit disturbing to hear, "When I look inside myself, all I see is darkness."

It would be difficult to answer your questions, because I guess Christians would see God differently. We think we are a little like Him, at least more so than other animals on planet earth! in that we can think and feel, and choose, and relate to others and understand goodness and beauty and love. But we don't believe that we are part of God.

What about my question is hard for you to answer?
I'm asking if you, as a Christian, imagine God up in the clouds or the stars looking down?
Do you think that people apart from God are simply all sin, and if so, doesn't that make non-christians 100% sin, with no goodness in them?
They are simple questions, but I'm trying to discern if they are his beliefs, or Christianity's teachings.

Not only non-Christians, but certainly Christians too, we believe, have lost the innocence and sinlessness in which we were created. We now tend towards wickedness much more easily than towards goodness. In the best of our thoughts and actions, there is evil. We do not love our neighbour easily...none of us.


When Christians say Christ lives in them, they do not mean that they become God. Its just a way of saying that we have a new relationship with God, where we are acceptable to Him, through Christ, in a way we believe humans are not normally. So we are His children in a new way, we try to obey His commands, we have access to Him every moment, with the promise that he has forgiven us our sin, and is there to help us live our lives in a better way.

I'm not sure I have expressed myself well. Anyway! Hope this addition helps

I don't know if I would say that a Christian "becomes God". Maybe I'm not being clear.
My understanding, after becoming far more Buddhist, is that God exists in all creation, and in every person. (Everyone has a conscience.) However, even though I still speak in tongues,and still pray to God, I can't clearly define where I start and God ends.

Can you say that you clearly do? That when you ask Jesus into your heart, you feel like you have you and Jesus living inside your body clearly independent of one another?

Many people have told me that God communcates with them telepathically - they get a thought, a feeling, in their answer to a prayer. However, it that is your thought, how does one differentiate clearly where God ends and you begin?

 

[Beanieboy]

I just want to say, we all are sinners cause we are imperfect beings, now God loves us but he hates sin within us and wants us to realize that fact.

God send his son Jesus Christ, through whom we have receive salvation. For myself I truly believe, In God the Father, the son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. God send his only son in human form, to die for us and give victory, Jesus christ is ascended up in heaven and he is with us and dwells within our hearts means indirectly he is watching over us.

Let me give a simple analogy, If you love a person so dearly, you know the person is in your heart and even when the person is not around you, you still know that the person is around.

We have christ in our heart and he is with us, but we still look in heaven for him, this is natural....that comes with our understanding of God is looking at us.

Are you separate from God?
Completely and totally separate spirits and creations?

 

[Beanieboy]

Oh yeah, your questions.



The people who implied that were not thinking -- they were quoting someone else. We have the potential for evil, and we are naturally driven by self-preservation. This focus on self can lead us to do some horrible things, as well as harm others unknowingly.

In the face of ultimate purity, we can't honestly say that we have never had a bad thought, or acted in detriment to someone else.

When you're done wearing a shirt that doesn't really get dirty, you still know it's soiled with body oils and dust mites and flakes of skin. So you still send it through the wash, whether it looks dirty or not.

Some people get stain treatment, and live out legal and natural consequences of their actions. But Jesus' redemption was a once-for-all promise of cleansing. We are not permanently kept indoors for playing in the mud -- just reprimanded and sent to wash off.

No. I have a sense that He is around or in me... similar to what you describe. I don't need to shout. (-; But I see Him as a separate person.

Vine-branches
Father-children, joint heirs

Thanks for your response. I'm going to dream on this and respond later.

My immediate thought is: What about "we are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord"? Is it possible that in having a relationship with God, we become one with God?

 

[MikeMcK]

With all due respect, you have the right to believe that. However, this isn't the point of the thread.

I'm only answering your questions and responding to your statements. If it isn't the point of the thread, then why do you keep bringing these things up?

What, then, is the point of the thread?

I invite you to go to Non-Christian Religion to discuss this further, but my salvation has nothing to do with this thread topic.

But it does. It is directly related to the OP. And may I remind you that I'm only following the course of conversation that you have set.

Anyway, back to my questions:

1. Would you say that that judge is a just judge? Of course you wouldn't. So if that judge isn't just for not upholding the law, how much more unjust would God be for not upholding the law and punishing evildoers?

2. Are your words and deeds pure?

3. Do you believe that God will judge you to be innocent or guilty when you stand before Him on judgement day?

 

[Beanieboy]

I'm only answering your questions and responding to your statements.

Anyway, back to my questions:

1. Would you say that that judge is a just judge? Of course you wouldn't. So if that judge isn't just for not upholding the law, how much more unjust would God be for not upholding the law and punishing evildoers?

2. Are your words and deeds pure?

3. Do you believe that God will judge you to be innocent or guilty when you stand before Him on judgement day?

How are you responding to my statements by asking questions that are completely different, and directed towards my Christian salvation as a Buddhist? Here are the answers to your questions:

1. Was Jesus unjust for not stoning the adultress? The Pharisees were trying to trap him, so that he would be condemned with either answer. His answer, however, was that whoever was without sin should cast the first stone. He then forgave her sin, and told her to go and sin no more.

When I have been told this story, I asked, "But Jesus was without sin. Jesus could have cast the first stone. However, he choose not to, to show mercy, to defend her. He condemned her accusers." The response has been all over the board, from, "Jesus didn't witness the adultery, and there must be 2 witness", "the man had to be there also," etc., but none of it suggesting that man has a much harsher judgement of others than God or Christ. We used to burn "witches" at the stake, following the judgement of the bible. We would not only hang criminals, but people would gather and watch as a form of entertainment.

I believe it is man who is the harsh judge, not God. It is men like Pat Robertson who suggest that God lifts his hand of protection during 9/11 because of the countries sin of homosexuality, lebianism, and feminism. And the Tsunami was also blamed on the many people that were victims, that they had it coming.

That's not my understanding of God, and I have searched, and continue searching, questioning everything I'm taught and bringing it to God in prayer.

I must assume that you have read the Gospel. The Pharisees condemned Jesus, because he was healing on the Saabath, rather than resting. It's a law, after all. Jesus responded:
11 "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

But it's a law!!! It's one of the 10 Commandments.
Does that mean that Jesus sinned on the Sabbath?
No. The laws are guidelines to help you, not weights to hold you down, so the idea that on Judgement Day, everything will be discussed since your birth to death, ie. "You had a job at at McDonald's and worked on the Sabbath, which is a sin..." is quite bizarre to me.

Further, the Christian will sometimes say, "My sins are forgiven!"

So I have to ask: If you believe that God punishes all sin, would the Christian, who believes in the bibles, and understands they should at least try to follow God's law as a sign of devotion to God, and because they know better since they believe, go to church, and read the bible, be more lenient to them when they say, "Yeah, well, you have to make a buck. Anyway, I'm forgiven" when they break the Commandment, and be more harsh to the non-Christian, who does not know better, who does not believe in the Christian God, does not go to church, and so, does not follow the teachings of the Bible?

To say God punishes the sinners more than the Christians who do the same thing is a bit of a blasphemy, in my eyes. Not only that, but it seems that the Christian who would dare insist that they are somehow forgiven while they appear to delight in the punishment of the unsaved might want to read the Parable of the man who was forgiven a large debt, but refused to forgive the smaller debt of his servant. (The Master revoked his forgiveness)

As we judge here on earth, so are we judged. Food for thought.

2. Are my words and deeds pure? Sadly, no.
It would be like me asking you, "So, now that you are a Christian, do you, like Jesus said to the adultress, go and sin no more?"
Each Sunday, when I went to church, we prayed for forgiveness for what we did, for what we did not do, for thoughts, words, and deeds. It's a process.

In the same way, Buddhism is a process. Monks don't just enter and turn into instant Lamas. They spend long periods of time learning. As for me, they are purer than before, to be sure.

My point that I was making was this:
Ask fellow christians to rate these things - sins of thought, sins of words, sins of action.

Most people will put them in this order:
Action
Word
Thought

If you think about doing something bad to someone, they might not even consider it a sin, because it isn't exactly like you did it.

However, the process is: the thought, converted into words, converted into action.

It's the thought that creates the action in the first place.

Therefore, if you spend more time examining, and purifying your thoughts, your words and actions will reflect that.

My experience as a Christian was that almost everyone I knew spent more time concerned about their actions (the "real" sins), and less time I addressing the source of the actions, thus unable to stop their flow, and in a lot of conflict.

It's not uncommon when I say that I try to spend 15 minutes in meditation that someone will respond, "I can't sit still for 5 minutes," to which I answer, "exactly. That's what you need to quiet."

For example, there is a practice where you imagine a person that angers you, and imagine they are clouded with dark smoke. You inhale the dark smoke from them, and breathe out light and sun and love. Initially, I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but tried it nonetheless. After some practice, I noticed that my thoughts were no longer of how much I hated the person, but filled with compassion. I was more open, and communicative about anything that I felt was offensive, and in releasing that anger, felt better, treated her better, and my mind was clouded with negative thought.

3. Do I think God will judge me innocent or guilty?
A Buddhist would say, "there is no way to prove that there is a God, so the point is mute. Why waste time on hypothetical questions?"

However, let me answer from a Christian perspective, then my Buddhist perspective.

From a Christian perspective, if we will say that there will be a Judgement Day, I believe that we will be judged on a number of criteria. How did we judge? (By the measure you judge, so will you be judged.) If you judge with mercy, so shall it be given.

Did you love your neighbor as yourself? That's the crux of what Christ taught. As with the sheep and goats, if you claimed to love Jesus, then treated people with judgement, condemnation, showed no mercy, no humility, would not try to help those in need, this is how you have behaved to Christ, and that is what you will have to answer for - why you have thought yourself holier than Christ, rude to Christ, condemning of Christ, and merciless to Christ, and then answer what you thing you deserve as a reward for your behavior.

You can't follow Jesus by simply saying that Jesus is your Person Lord And Savior (TM), and then living as if he isn't.

At the same time, if someone is not a Christian, but is loving their neighbor as themselves, is showing kindness and mercy, is giving of their time, compassion, and self for the benefit of others, they have done so to Christ unknowingly.

From a Buddhist, or rather, my POV, I have spoken in tongues, studied other religions, and pray to God constantly, constantly seeking him. I didn't find a God of harshness, but one of gentleness that wants us to succeed in loving each other, to become as we were created. We are given talents for each other, not for ourselves. I found that no one is good, and no one is bad. We are both. It's easy to think that a killer is a bad man, and dismiss that it is impossible that there is any good in him, but you must also forget that Saul killed many Christians, and was the writer of many a new testament book. It's easiest to point to another, as the Pharisees did, and say, "I go to church. I go to bible study. I'm so glad I'm not like THAT person."
We have two wolves inside of us, one good, and one bad, and the one who wins is the one that we feed.

I also don't believe that man was created by a God that demands his adoration, that we must toil for, worship, and avoid his wrath, and hope for a reward at the end of the day.

God is about the relationship through life, not simply at our death. This life is as important as the afterlife, when, for all we know, we may cycle through and learn more.

So, will I be found guilty or innocent?
You tell me, according to Christianity.
Will God know me? If I have a relationship with God, if I have regular conversations with him, as I did since I was 4 or 5, will he damn me to eternal suffering on a legality?

Do you believe that God sits up in heaven somewhere, micromanaging everyone's life, and making tick marks anytime we do anything wrong? Do you believe that God sits in total judgement of our every move?

So, maybe you should tell me if you believe if I will be found guilty and innocent. I sense that you believe one way or the other, and were you the judge, I would say guilty.

However, it will not be you. And as much as I sometimes seek God to confirm that he is above, looking down in harsh judgement from grave sins to the pettiest to confirm what I was taught, the God of Fire and Brimstone who's wrath we live to avoid, I simply can't find that being. I find the antithesis, one who judges me with more mercy than I judge myself, who offers compassion, comfort and mercy from our hardest judges, ourselves.


I have also read Christian books, like How to Quit Religion without Quitting God, who argues that either the bible is true when it says, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" or it is not.
Either Christ's sacrifice undid the devil's work, or it did not.

It isn't "activated" by man's decision. It either is, or is not. Either Jesus is my Saviour, or he is not. If he died for my sins, he is my saviour, but if I must accept him, and he is not, then he didn't die for my sins. It must be one or the other.

Zimmer believes, and with good biblical support, that Jesus' death died for the sins of all, and that all will be drawn back to God.

That seems far more loving, far more just.

Christians act so surprised when they tell people that they must either accept Jesus as their personal lord and saviour (TM) or be cast in the lake of fire, where they will be tortured as if their flesh is being ripped off for eternity, then confused why the nonchristian is repulsed at their God. They are repulsed at a religion that seems to be content that its members will go to heaven while the majority of the world will be tortured in hell for eternity, with a simple, "I told you so! I offered you a chance, so..."

It's because it lacks love and mercy. The very idea is not one of love. The "judgement" is far more based on law than love, and Christ illustrated his mercy to the "sinner" and his less tolerance to those that considered themselves holier than others. He questioned the Pharisees on their callousness of hope, mercy and faith, while piling laws of less importance on the backs of followers.

God isn't about Judgement, and in my opinion, to reduce him down to a judge and jury of Judgement Day is a true blasphemy.

 

[Beanieboy]

3. Do you believe that God will judge you to be innocent or guilty when you stand before Him on judgement day?

Why not all weigh in.
To all posters of the thread, what is your response to this question?