My Apple Challenge

[AV1611VET]

God creates an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What specific evidence would you use to convince your friend He did this?

I say there isn't any evidence.

The only thing that could remotely be used as evidence is the fact that the amount of mass/energy in the universe was raised accordingly, in violation of physical laws.

But we would have no way of knowing that, since science is myopic.*

* By myopic, I mean science is not omniscient.

You could present the apple yourself as evidence, along with your testimony, but your friend would have to accept that fact on faith, not science.

If he didn't accept it, and chose to believe you're wrong, then he, not you, would be the one in the wrong.

So do you agree with me that there is no evidence you can use to convince him, or not?

 

[Larniavc]

God creates an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What specific evidence would you use to convince your friend He did this?

I say there isn't any evidence.

The only thing that could remotely be used as evidence is the fact that the amount of mass/energy in the universe was raised accordingly, in violation of physical laws.

But we would have no way of knowing that, since science is myopic.*

* By myopic, I mean science is not omniscient.

You could present the apple yourself as evidence, along with your testimony, but your friend would have to accept that fact on faith, not science.

If he didn't accept it, and chose to believe you're wrong, then he, not you, would be the one in the wrong.

So do you agree with me that there is no evidence you can use to convince him, or not?

Is that he question whether he did it or is he God?

 

[Leaf473]

God creates an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What specific evidence would you use to convince your friend He did this?

I say there isn't any evidence.

The only thing that could remotely be used as evidence is the fact that the amount of mass/energy in the universe was raised accordingly, in violation of physical laws.

But we would have no way of knowing that, since science is myopic.*

* By myopic, I mean science is not omniscient.

You could present the apple yourself as evidence, along with your testimony, but your friend would have to accept that fact on faith, not science.

If he didn't accept it, and chose to believe you're wrong, then he, not you, would be the one in the wrong.

So do you agree with me that there is no evidence you can use to convince him, or not?

Hi AV1611VET,

Does your friend get to see the apple get created?

For me, the question you present relates to the nature of reality and how we know about it. As I understand science, it accepts knowledge based on the five senses only.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is that he question whether he did it or is he God?

He did it. The question is what evidence you would use to convince your friend He did it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi AV1611VET,

Hi, Leaf!

Does your friend get to see the apple get created?

No.

For me, the question you present relates to the nature of reality and how we know about it. As I understand science, it accepts knowledge based on the five senses only.

And that's what you have to appeal to to convince your friend God did it -- those five senses.

And I personally don't think anyone can do that, as we're talking a miracle of creation here, and science should have absolutely no interest in the matter.

("Matter" -- no pun intended. )

 

[Leaf473]

Hi, Leaf!
No.
And that's what you have to appeal to to convince your friend God did it -- those five senses.

And I personally don't think anyone can do that, as we're talking a miracle of creation here, and science should have absolutely no interest in the matter.

("Matter" -- no pun intended. )

Well, the five senses deal with aspects of things that are, not things that aren't. Given that, there's no way to prove that the apple was created out of nothing.

So I believe we agree

 

[dlamberth]

In the first place, I'd have the hardest time proving that it's God's doing.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, the five senses deal with aspects of things that are, not things that aren't. Given that, there's no way to prove that the apple was created out of nothing.

So I believe we agree

Thank you, Leaf!

I've made some 200+ challenge threads since coming here, and this one is my best.

My raisin bread challenge thread is my second best, which I'm planning to recreate later.

 

[Yttrium]

What specific evidence would you use to convince your friend He did this?

Evidence? I wouldn't even have the social aptitude to talk to a friend about it. I'd thank God for the apple and eat it.

 

[AV1611VET]

In the first place, I'd have the hardest time proving that it's God's doing.

That's expressed in the OP.

 

[AV1611VET]

Evidence? I wouldn't even have the social aptitude to talk to a friend about it. I'd thank God for the apple and eat it.

Ya -- I don't think you could come up with any if your life depended on it.

 

[inquiring mind]

God creates an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What specific evidence would you use to convince your friend He did this?

I say there isn't any evidence.

The only thing that could remotely be used as evidence is the fact that the amount of mass/energy in the universe was raised accordingly, in violation of physical laws.

But we would have no way of knowing that, since science is myopic.*

* By myopic, I mean science is not omniscient.

You could present the apple yourself as evidence, along with your testimony, but your friend would have to accept that fact on faith, not science.

If he didn't accept it, and chose to believe you're wrong, then he, not you, would be the one in the wrong.

So do you agree with me that there is no evidence you can use to convince him, or not?

The Bible tells us there are two ways the apple could have come about, either the example you give according to Mark 10:27, or God’s natural way, which is according to Genesis 1:11. So, everything rests with you and what you say you saw, and I agree there is no evidence. Even if two or more saw it appear in your hand there would still be unbelievers. Sounds familiar doesn’t it?

 

[dlamberth]

That's expressed in the OP.

I know. But how to prove that to my friend, let alone ex nihilo.

 

[Larniavc]

He did it. The question is what evidence you would use to convince your friend He did it.

But how would you know he did it?

 

[AV1611VET]

But how would you know he did it?

Don't try too hard not to understand, or you'll end up not understanding.

 

[Larniavc]

So do you agree with me that there is no evidence you can use to convince him, or not?

No. God could show up in person perform an act of universe creation and that I think would convince me.

An apple could be done by any old wizard.

 

[Mountainmike]

What you say is undoubtedly true.
There can be no smoking gun to determine whether the apple was created ex nihilo after the fact.

Alas you also sowed the seeds of the inevitable responses. Including "God" in the question inevitably results all in challenging whether God did it, despite it being a false challenge since it is a base assumption. Which is of course a straw man, because you are challenging whether creation can be detected not who did it!

I am left to wonder if you would get the same response if you repeated the question with Larnievcs wizard. He at least could not argue. Perhaps he would like to identify just one such wizard since he seems to know a few.

The oddity is of course. Hawkings final comment on this is that HE thinks the universe was "created spontaneously out of nothing". So scientific realists can hardly argue with the concept of spontaneous creation, despite the fact they all try! Hawking was not around to know who did it. So...he accepts creation, disputes the creator!

Don't try too hard not to understand, or you'll end up not understanding.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am left to wonder if you would get the same response if you repeated the question with Larnievcs wizard.

I'll say this again:

God could show up and create a jillion more apples if He wanted to.

That doesn't answer my challenge though.

 

[Mountainmike]

I'll say this again:

God could show up and create a jillion more apples if He wanted to.

That doesn't answer my challenge though.

Ive agreed with the point you made.
Its the responses that are unsatisfactory, not your challenge.

 

[inquiring mind]

The oddity is of course. Hawkings final comment on this is that HE thinks the universe was "created spontaneously out of nothing". So scientific realists can hardly argue with the concept of spontaneous creation, despite the fact they all try! Hawking was not around to know who did it. So...he accepts creation, disputes the creator!

I don’t get it… spontaneous creation is accepted, but a creator is not. From just an intellectual level, with no faith involved, wouldn’t a creator be the most logical answer, even if you refuse to accept it is the Biblical God? Then the next logical question would be who/what would be capable of such a miracle, other than the Biblical God?