My Abiogenesis Challenge

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Oh....okay

And what about Naaman?
Do you have a suggestion regarding Naaman's immediate cure

And while we're at it, what about Gehazzi's immediate illness

Oh, those were straight miracles

 

[miknik5]

Oh, those were straight miracles

Do you think GOD knows the answer?

 

[Strathos]

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.

Correct, other than it caused there to be something for evolution to act upon, according to the theory.

Take your discussion about abiogenesis elsewhere.

If it's off-topic, yes.

Leave abiogenesis at the front door.

See above.

Show me evidence of abiogenesis.

People are in the progress of looking for evidence. There is some, but there is no clear verdict as of yet, AFAIK.

Abiogenesis can be taught after school, but not during.

Depends what kind of school you're talking about. No specific model should be taught in early education, but the concept should at least be mentioned. In college courses dealing with advanced biology they can go into the details, although they are tentative.

Nonbelievers in abiogenesis know more about abiogenesis than believers do.

Highly unlikely.

What's the Hebrew word for "organic"?

אורגני, although I don't see how that is relevant in any way

What's the Greek word for "organic"?

οργανικός, although I don't see how that is relevant in any way

Books on abiogenesis were written decades after abiogenesis got started.

Several hundred million decades, yes.

I don't believe in abiogenesis, so there's nothing to discuss.

That depends on the topic of discussion.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Hey!!!How are you!

Fine thanks.

 

[miknik5]

Fine thanks.

 

[miknik5]

Correct, other than it caused there to be something for evolution to act upon, according to the theory.



If it's off-topic, yes.



See above.



People are in the progress of looking for evidence. There is some, but there is no clear verdict as of yet, AFAIK.



Depends what kind of school you're talking about. No specific model should be taught in early education, but the concept should at least be mentioned. In college courses dealing with advanced biology they can go into the details, although they are tentative.



Highly unlikely.



אורגני, although I don't see how that is relevant in any way



οργανικός, although I don't see how that is relevant in any way



Several hundred million decades, yes.



That depends on the topic of discussion.

We were talking about abiogenesis

You said people are in the process of looking for evidence. Any progress that you could disclose here?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's disingenuous to say you don't know how something originated when you KNOW it could not have done so.

Huh?
That doesnt make any sense.

We observe life to exist. Obviously it originated in some way... How else would it exist?

It's disingenuous to claim that all living things came from a single cell but you can't ask where that cell came from.

Do you realise that there is an entire field of science geared specifically towards finding an answer to that very question?

Nobody is telling you that you can't ask that question.

What if there were several; some originating plants; some originating animals?

Then the DNA of plants and animals wouldn't exhibit common ancestry. But it does.

You can't exclude what you can't falsify.

You can't include it either.
However, common ancestry of plants and animals is falsifiable.

If science tells me that the formulation of footballs is impossible

1. science doesn't tell you that
2. if science did tell you that, it would be a statement that can be demonstrated to be wrong, simply by pointing at an existing football.

and you show up with a large bag of them I'm certainly going to question their origin.

And not finding an answer to that question, won't change the fact that the balls exist and neither would it stop us from playing and understanding the game.

And when we later find out where the balls came from and how they were made, it wouldn't change the game.

However, evolution has been escalated to a religion, displacing all others to some.

And religions are bad?

In any case, you can repeat such nonsense all you want, you may even really believe it, but it won't change the fact that evolution theory is a theory of the natural sciences, like any other such theory. Developed and scrutinized by the very same scientific methods as all other natural science theories.

For example, you may believe that man was created or evolved but not both.

More then a billion christians disprove that statement every day.
The Pope himself, disagrees with that statement.

To believe in evolution you have to reject most of the first third of the Scriptures, which makes it by definition idolatry.

Sorry, but your particular ancient religious writings have no proper explanatory power, nore is there any particular reason why we would look at those writings as opposed to the many hundreds of other religious creation stories in case we decided not to care much about explanatory power.

It's going to take a bit more then just stories.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

i

I can tell you what the Southern Baptist Convention has to say on the matter.

Why would we listen to the "southern baptist convention" to learn about matters of biology?

WHEREAS, The theory of evolution has never been proven to be a scientific fact,

Sounds like the southern baptists need a crash course in science and how it works. Theories don't become facts. Theories explain facts. Facts support (or falsify) theories.

Theories are never "proven".

See, this is why you should let biologists talk about matters of biology.

 

[miknik5]

Huh?
That doesnt make any sense.

We observe life to exist. Obviously it originated in some way... How else would it exist?



Do you realise that there is an entire field of science geared specifically towards finding an answer to that very question?

Nobody is telling you that you can't ask that question


And not finding an answer to that question, won't change the fact that the balls exist and neither would it stop us from playing and understanding the game.

And when we later find out where the balls came from and how they were made, it wouldn't change the game

Sorry, but your particular ancient religious writings have no proper explanatory power, nore is there any particular reason why we would look at those writings as opposed to the many hundreds of other religious creation stories in case we decided not to care much about explanatory power.

It's going to take a bit more then just stories.

Are you sure about your statement then?

With regards to footballs?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All matter is in a state of increasing entropy.

In the expanding bubble of space-time, yes.
But the point is about the origins of this space-time bubble.

What you try to do is take the laws of physics as they exist IN this universe and extrapolate them and pretend as if the same laws also apply "outside" of the universe. ie, NOT within space-time.

Newsflash: a model of physics that literally depends on the existance of space and time, is not going to apply when space and time aren't present.

Unless you consider eternity to me a more or less evenly distributed mass of unusable energy, the future of the universe is disintegration to oblivion.

Personally, I don't pretend to know things that are for all intents and purposes currently unknowable.

 

[miknik5]

i

Why would we listen to the "southern baptist convention" to learn about matters of biology?




Sounds like the southern baptists need a crash course in science and how it works. Theories don't become facts. Theories explain facts. Facts support (or falsify) theories.

Theories are never "proven".

See, this is why you should let biologists talk about matters of biology.

No. I think they're fine
what hasn't been proven to you has been proven to them

Sorry
It really ISNT a theory

(I wasn't talking about the methods scientists use to support theories though because that method doesn't work when speaking about GOD)

Sorry
That's the divide between us and will always be a major factor between the understanding of GOD (as sovereign) over man and his methods of....understanding anything and any thing in the world

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you sure about your statement then?

With regards to footballs?

What statement? Not sure what you are talking about.

Footballs exist and we can use them to play a football game.
As far as the game is concerned, it matters not where the balls come from or how they are made.

They exist and we can use them.

Same with life, evolution being the game being played.
Life exists, it reproduces with variation and it competes for limited resources while trying to survive and reproduce. It's what it does.

It matters not how it originated. It exists and it behaves the way it does. No matter what we discover about its ultimate origins... It's not going to change reality.

 

[miknik5]

What statement? Not sure what you are talking about.

Footballs exist and we can use them to play a football game.
As far as the game is concerned, it matters not where the balls come from or how they are made.

They exist and we can use them.

Same with life, evolution being the game being played.
Life exists, it reproduces with variation and it competes for limited resources while trying to survive and reproduce. It's what it does.

It matters not how it originated. It exists and it behaves the way it does. No matter what we discover about its ultimate origins... It's not going to change reality.

Where did the footballs come from before they were footballs?

Is this an example of abiogenesis ( if nonliving material could spontaneously just pop up)

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No. I think they're fine
what hasn't been proven to you has been proven to them

Sorry
It really ISNT a theory

(I wasn't talking about the methods scientists use to support theories though because that method doesn't work when speaking about GOD)

Sorry
That's the divide between us and will always be a major factor between the understanding of GOD (as sovereign) over man and his methods of....understanding anything and any thing in the world

You're not making any sense to me here.

Evolution is a theory of biology, like any other theory in the natural sciences.
And as such, theories are never considered "proven".

Whenever a bunch of adults talk about theories and how they aren't "proven", especially in context of science/education, all kinds of alarm bells should go off.

 

[miknik5]

YOu know somebody had to put together all the material to make that football

 

[miknik5]

You're not making any sense to me here.

Evolution is a theory of biology, like any other theory in the natural sciences.
And as such, theories are never considered "proven".

Whenever a bunch of adults talk about theories and how they aren't "proven", especially in context of science/education, all kinds of alarm bells should go off.

You're talking here with adults who know there is a GOD

That changes everything

You told a southern Baptist to "leave the work to scientists"

But when it comes to science vs GOD, HE is SOVEREIGN and HE will remain SOVEREIGN

We aren't "evolving" to some completed end
We are "evolving" from the source of that completed end

That is Some of us are

 

[KWCrazy]

For your information, the ability to digest the sugar found in milk on into adulthood is a genetic mutation...

Change in diet is adaptation. Try again.

 

[Strathos]

We were talking about abiogenesis

You said people are in the process of looking for evidence. Any progress that you could disclose here?

5 second search on Google Scholar

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where did the footballs come from before they were footballs?

Is this an example of abiogenesis ( if nonliving material could spontaneously just pop up)

It seems as if you haven't understood the analogy being made.

The simple point is that we don't need to know where life came from or how it originated, in order to study existing life and unravel the biological processes it is subject to.

Just like we don't need to know the origins of footballs in order to play a game of football.

Life exists and we can study it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

YOu know somebody had to put together all the material to make that football

Still not understanding the point of the analogy.

Which is, again, that the origins of footballs are irrelevant to playing a game of football, with an already existing football.