Mutations Really Do Happen

[crjmurray]

I asked you all to calculate the odds.

And I responded by asking you to go shuffle a deck of cards. Is the math too hard?

 

[whois]

It seems that every so often we see people acting as if mutations just don't happen. They claim that since there are DNA repair mechanisms in humans and other species that mutations simply do not occur.

Just to show that they really do happen, I would like to reference the following paper:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v46/n8/full/ng.3021.html

secondary article here:
Population Whole-genome Sequencing: Dutch Edition | MassGenomics

In this paper they looked at the genomes of two parents and one of their children. By doing so, they can find the DNA sequences in the children that did not come from the parents. These are the mutations.

How many families did they look at? 250. That's a lot. Here is an interesting chart showing that the number of mutations loosely correlates to the age of the father:

So yes, mutations do occur, even in humans.

what is this supposed to tell me?

it's been known for years that there is a higher incidence of mental retardation the older you are when you conceive.

 

[whois]

...

 

[whois]

"Interestingly, the 1,917 such events observed across the entire cohort
were confined to 11 genes...which all seem to have high mutation tolerance."

in other words:
at most, there were only 11 genes mutated, and all of those genes are mutation tolerant.

also, there doesn't seem to be a study for which of those genes are passed on to the siblings descendents.

question:
why hasn't this process changed humanity in the last 2000 or so years?

 

[SteveB28]

in other words:
at most, there were only 11 genes mutated, and all of those genes are mutation tolerant.

also, there doesn't seem to be a study for which of those genes are passed on to the siblings descendents.

question:
why hasn't this process changed humanity in the last 2000 or so years?

How do you know that it hasn't? Why would you expect to see major changes in such a relatively short period of time?

 

[whois]

How do you know that it hasn't? Why would you expect to see major changes in such a relatively short period of time?

from what i know, i'm surprised life survives at all.

the combined action of mutation and the concept of transposons.

in my opinion, DNA must have some kind of "master plan", that deals with the above combination.

hox genes might be that plan. these genes have never been mutated.
can someone explain why?

 

[DogmaHunter]

What I find interesting is the amazing lack of diversity in between species.

That's because you aren't looking (or you are blinded by those bible goggles).

I don't understand why there are not 100's of species in between species.

There are.

Rather than evolution being a theory, it should have 1000's of living
examples of what also is imagined to have occurred over time.

Why? Knowing that the VAST majority of all species that have ever lived have gone the way of the dodo, why on earth would you expect this?

Also, you are aware that throughout history, it occured multiple times that some catastrophe (cosmic or earthly) whiped out 70 till even 90% of all life on this planet, right?

It's not like the world so crowded that there isn't room for a continuous
spectrum of missing links

Right, because a couple square feet is all a species needs, right?

 

[[serious]]

Has anyone seen a DNA mutation occur realtime that isn't just a CGI animation? Has anyone even confirmed that DNA is real? Have you gone to the lab and actually confirmed this? Or do you only have second hand information from your "white lab coat psuedo scientists".

I've worked with DNA in the lab. I can confirm it exists.

 

[DogmaHunter]

But unlike the losers in evolution the other ticket holders don't disappear without a trace.

To be fair, their losing tickets do.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Has anyone even confirmed that DNA is real?

A guy I know just found out that he isn't the biological father of his child.
You know how they know?

I'll let you guess it.

Have you gone to the lab and actually confirmed this?

The guy I know idd had to send something to the lab to find out if he is the biological father or not. Guess what it was.

Or do you only have second hand information from your "white lab coat psuedo scientists".

I can see it before me now when the judge orders you to pay for your biological child "but judge!!!! DNA does not exist!!!! don't listen to those white lab coat psuedo scientists, obviously they are lying!!!!!"

 

[DogmaHunter]

No comments yet on the card shuffling issue..... Ya think they're all at home calculating the odds?

Reading through the thread and the guy's responses to your request...
I came to the conclusion that he is probably unable to do the calculation.

 

[[serious]]

I'll rephrase it. What are the odds of any given selection that is made by natural selection? How many choices does natural selection have to select from for any given change? That should reveal some interesting odds.

I'll do the math for you.

Base mutation rate: 2.5 × 10^−8

Human genome size: 3 x 10^9

Meaning on the Order of 100 mutations per individual per Generation.

Each mutation has a long term fixation rate of n/2 where n is the degree of positive or negative effect of the change.

 

[sfs]

I'll do the math for you.

Base mutation rate: 2.5 × 10^−8

Human genome size: 3 x 10^9

Meaning on the Order of 100 mutations per individual per Generation.

Each mutation has a long term fixation rate of n/2 where n is the degree of positive or negative effect of the change.

FYI, the mutation rate is now thought to be about a factor of two lower -- but that cancels the factor of two for the diploid genome.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'll do the math for you.

Base mutation rate: 2.5 × 10^−8

Human genome size: 3 x 10^9

Meaning on the Order of 100 mutations per individual per Generation.

Each mutation has a long term fixation rate of n/2 where n is the degree of positive or negative effect of the change.

I guess I need to rephrase it again. What are the combined odds of a creature, like say a mouse, existing at all? I'll grant you the starting point of a single-celled organism.

 

[sfs]

I guess I need to rephrase it again. What are the combined odds of a creature, like say a mouse, existing at all? I'll grant you the starting point of a single-celled organism.

The probability of any individual species existing is very, very small. Again, so what? The probability of any individual human existing is also very, very small. Do you have a point lurking somewhere here?

 

[sfs]

from what i know, i'm surprised life survives at all.

the combined action of mutation and the concept of transposons.

in my opinion, DNA must have some kind of "master plan", that deals with the above combination.

The various error-checking and repair mechanisms seem to do a perfectly adequate job of keeping mutation to an acceptable level. The various mechanisms for suppressing transposons (methylation, siRNA, piRNA) seem to

hox genes might be that plan. these genes have never been mutated.
can someone explain why?

The function of hox genes is mostly well understood, and it does not involve either mutation or transposons. As for why they haven't mutated (presumably you mean they don't vary in successful organisms -- they mutate just like any other gene), they're essential controllers of early embryonic development, and highly constrained.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The probability of any individual species existing is very, very small. Again, so what? The probability of any individual human existing is also very, very small. Do you have a point lurking somewhere here?

I'd like to hear odds like gazillions to one, but I'm happy with 'very, very, small'.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I'd like to hear odds like gazillions to one, but I'm happy with 'very, very, small'.

Did you know the average human male produces about 500 billion sperm in a lifetime? The odds of a particular sperm fertilising an egg would seem small, yet I'm guessing one or two of yours managed it. You asking for the odds of an individual species existing is a similar type of question as asking the odds of one of your sperm fertilising an egg.

 

[sfs]

I'd like to hear odds like gazillions to one, but I'm happy with 'very, very, small'.

Why? I've already asked this, but I'll ask it again. You said the odds would be interesting. They're not. What was your point?

 

[whois]

The various error-checking and repair mechanisms seem to do a perfectly adequate job of keeping mutation to an acceptable level. The various mechanisms for suppressing transposons (methylation, siRNA, piRNA) seem to

seem to what?
your post seems to be cut off in mid transmission.

As for why they haven't mutated (presumably you mean they don't vary in successful organisms -- they mutate just like any other gene), . . .

i haven't seen any research into this area.
you apparently know it as the truth, so point me to where this research is located please.