Must one have the help of Divine grace in order to love their neighbors as themselves?

[Ceallaigh]

I'm a grumpy surly judgemental jerk. I managed to stay away from drugs and such and hold a job etc. It's their own fault if they decided to make being a homeless tweaker a career choice. That's me, that's how I think. I'm so thankful I have the Holy Spirit to suppress that wretched jerk and to be able to feel love and compassion.

 

[garee]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

I would think if we do the will of God we have been empowered to . If he has begun the good teaching comforting work with us he will continue to teach us till the end (Philippians 1: 6)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If an atheist does the will of God to love their neighbor . They have performed the will of God. But because they do not accredit the power to God they walk in unbelief .like those in Hebrew 6 who crucify Christ over and over and over exposing him to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough to convince them.

Those who do acknowledge the will of God (God is Love) we cannot love without him receive the better things that accompany salvation found in the latter part of Hebrew 6 .God propmised them that have the faith of Christ working in them to both will and empower he will not forget the good works he works in us as we do accredit the power to Him.

Hebrews 6 :9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

All of humanity is found in Hebrews 6.Both sides of the fence

 

[SANTOSO]

I'm a grumpy surly judgemental jerk. I managed to stay away from drugs and such and hold a job etc. It's their own fault if they decided to make being a homeless tweaker a career choice. That's me, that's how I think. I'm so thankful I have the Holy Spirit to suppress that wretched jerk and to be able to feel love and compassion.

Thanks Holy Spirit that helps you !

 

[SANTOSO]

This is what we have heard:

Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" -Luke 10:36

He said, "The one who showed him mercy." And Jesus said to him, "You go, and do likewise." -Luke 10:37

Do you consider yourself as to the man who fell among the robbers? Who owe much love to the neighbor who save you ?

Aren’t we glad that God commands to love our neighbors? Don’t we love others who obey God’s commandment and save us ?
Don’t we owe much love to the one who save us ?

or
Do you consider yourself as the neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?
Then let the steadfast love of the Lord and His compassion in you enable you to do what the Lord have said. Remember how we owe much love to our Lord Jesus Christ who loved us and gave Himself as a righteous sacrifice to save us. That is why we say we love God because He first loved us.

 

[Joyous Song]

All personalities have their quirks and high points. Some resonate more than others. That's usually a reflection of similar temperaments, values, or experiences. But that doesn't hold true for everyone. Some look for differences and peculiarities to round out their circle. That isn't the norm for most.

I'm very upbeat and positive and warn people upfront. I'm not in a good mood. That's me everyday. I'm driven and direct my attention towards personal improvement, spiritual growth, and fulfilling my purpose. My conversation reflects that. I don't dwell on current events, conspiracies, or end times. I'm present minded.

That can be difficult to handle if your disposition differs. But it has its purpose as does the opposite. God made me this way. There are people in the world who need that energy and inspiration. Ministering to them is a joy.

But I can't be all things to everyone and I don't try. I know my limitations and gifting and operate within my sphere. Deviations remove me from my rightful place and the result is heaviness and fatigue. I feel weighed down. I feel differently when I'm where I belong. There's energy, passion, and so on. I don't have that when I stray.

~bella

Joyous Song said: I struggled with one woman in our congregation for years, talk of rub the wrong way. Then I learned my personality. I have trouble with emotional people especially emotional people who emotions rule over their minds. This was her issue. I learned to have to affirm her emotions to help her calm down and listen. So I did this and the conflicts became far fewer.


Bella: All personalities have their quirks and high points. Some resonate more than others. That's usually a reflection of similar temperaments, values, or experiences. But that doesn't hold true for everyone. Some look for differences and peculiarities to round out their circle. That isn't the norm for most.

JS: I find if I can understand what makes friction between me and others, then its helpful in removing that friction. I also find I sometimes have to let people know my own quirks are so deeply grounded in me that I’m not going to change easily. I’ve already tried and failed. Letting them know helps them not step on my sour spots too often.

Bella: I'm very upbeat and positive and warn people upfront. I'm not in a good mood. That's me everyday. I'm driven and direct my attention towards personal improvement, spiritual growth, and fulfilling my purpose. My conversation reflects that. I don't dwell on current events, conspiracies, or end times. I'm present minded.

JS: I think I like mostly your upbeat attitude and I’m a driven person in much the same areas as well and tend to be happy. I also tend to be a deep intuitive thinking person and interested in almost everything. Like Kipling's “the Elephants Child,” no question, no query is too far fetch not to bring truth or wonder or some other great end. Thus the end times intrigues me, current events keep me informed, conspiracies theories trigger my curiosities of psychology to ask why do people think this way.

Bella: That can be difficult to handle if your disposition differs. But it has its purpose as does the opposite. God made me this way. There are people in the world who need that energy and inspiration. Ministering to them is a joy.

JS: Bernice, bless her soul, was a grumpy, thick sculled and old woman who loved my brownies and had an option on everything usually based on conspiracy theories, HaShem bless her. I believe she in Heaven trying to convince Peter Ham is really good. In the end we got along by my realizing I threatened her sacred cows of understanding, and let those pass. She was really old enough to think crazy things so long as they didn’t threaten her salvation.

You see, I’m a logician were data, not theory rules and theory when it is brought out is based on data. I may study bad logic (or the lack therein). Yet still, even after knowing someone like this personally, understanding how people can get so blindsided is still an enigma to me. I find logic does not work on them so I’m still studying the phenomenon.

Bella: But I can't be all things to everyone and I don't try. I know my limitations and gifting and operate within my sphere. Deviations remove me from my rightful place and the result is heaviness and fatigue. I feel weighed down. I feel differently when I'm where I belong. There's energy, passion, and so on. I don't have that when I stray.

JS: which is fine, I like you that way. I in turn will try to learn about all types because as a deacons and future priest’s wife I’m going to meet all sorts or personalities and will have to get along with even the difficult ones. I think this is why He brought almost opposite opposing and difficult personalities into my life and said I had to make peace with them. This is my limitations and gifting and the sphere I operate in.

Yet though we appear so much on opposite sides we also seem to get along just fine here. You are in fact one of the poster I like to read. Visionary is another. Therefore you do step outside that sphere sometimes, when one of those outside that sphere need help. Thank you for doing this and thank you for being you.

 

[bèlla]

JS: I find if I can understand what makes friction between me and others, then its helpful in removing that friction. I also find I sometimes have to let people know my own quirks are so deeply grounded in me that I’m not going to change easily. I’ve already tried and failed. Letting them know helps them not step on my sour spots too often.

My circumstances are more controlled. I don't have anyone I have to deal with that I don't want to be bothered with. That reduces friction.

Irritations are minor but they fall in one category: Accommodation. A behavior, desire, or position I won't accommodate. That offends them. Those I get along with best understand place and they're not demanding. People who require a lot of time, attention, or togetherness are better suited for someone with fewer connections. I can't meet their need.

JS: I think I like mostly your upbeat attitude and I’m a driven person in much the same areas as well and tend to be happy. I also tend to be a deep intuitive thinking person and interested in almost everything. Like Kipling's “the Elephants Child,” no question, no query is too far fetch not to bring truth or wonder or some other great end. Thus the end times intrigues me, current events keep me informed, conspiracies theories trigger my curiosities of psychology to ask why do people think this way.

Thank you.

It's important to be true to ourselves and honor the person God created us to become. We should never diminish His workmanship.

You see, I’m a logician were data, not theory rules and theory when it is brought out is based on data. I may study bad logic (or the lack therein). Yet still, even after knowing someone like this personally, understanding how people can get so blindsided is still an enigma to me. I find logic does not work on them so I’m still studying the phenomenon.

I do the same for different reasons. Particularly for harmful and deceptive ideologies.

JS: which is fine, I like you that way. I in turn will try to learn about all types because as a deacons and future priest’s wife I’m going to meet all sorts or personalities and will have to get along with even the difficult ones. I think this is why He brought almost opposite opposing and difficult personalities into my life and said I had to make peace with them. This is my limitations and gifting and the sphere I operate in.

Exactly. God prepares us through our experiences.

Yet though we appear so much on opposite sides we also seem to get along just fine here. You are in fact one of the poster I like to read. Visionary is another. Therefore you do step outside that sphere sometimes, when one of those outside that sphere need help. Thank you for doing this and thank you for being you.

Thank you for the compliment and for sharing your journey. It's wonderful to see what God is doing and the insight you've gained. God bless you.

~bella

 

[stevevw]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

I wonder sometimes about what love actually means in the world. It seems to be bandied about and overused. I think just like peace and other qualities there is the world version and there is Gods version of love. The Bible tells us in John 4:19 "We love because he first loved us". No one really wants to love God and do his will and it is only by his grace that we are save and transformed to want to love God and therefore love others.

Everyone can love according to the world idea of love, but I think this is more about a feeling than the ultimate sacrificial love of Christ. The Bible says the greatest form of love is when someone lays down their life for another. That love is less talked about and promoted because its not so full of feel good factors and sort of goes against the evolutionary idea of survival and passing on our genes.

 

[Lukaris]

From the OP, I believe we cannot fulfill the commandment to love our neighbor independent of grace. Regardless of our Christian confession, I believe this is a serious error to think we can love our neighbor independently in relation to fallen nature ( Romans 3:23 etc.).We can only be saved by grace to do good ( Ephesians 2:8-10). This does not mean only a Christian can love their neighbor or that a non Christian cannot be saved. The Christian has grace to fulfill their conscience to live by the commandments ( 1 Timothy 1:5 etc.) & have to be on our guard to keep ( 1 Timothy 1:6 etc.). Non Christians have their conscience only but may still, only by grace, be saved ( Romans 2 etc.) if their disposition pleases God ( John 3:16-21). The Christian has assurance ( Hebrews 10:22-24) we do not know what every non Christian has or not.

 

[Lukaris]

To the OP, this topic really caught my attention because I had recently read a really good, scholarly book: Early Christian Doctrines by JND Kelly:

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Christian-Doctrines-J-Kelly/dp/006064334X

Kelly writes about a follower of the 5th c. Monk: Pelagius, named Julian ( of Eclanum) who said salvation is possible, independent of grace by one’s efforts. I do not think Pelagius actually taught what his student Julian later preached. I could never fully understand what the problem with Pelagius ultimately was. Now, I think I do, because I think his student ( others too?) created the problem of what is called “Pelagianism” which seems to deny grace as absolutely necessary ( I don’t think it denies grace per se).

I know St. Augustine went into overdrive re Pelagianism, but, he was originally only reserved towards Pelagius himself. There was a lot of extreme tendencies St. Augustine was dealing with ( from those who said a backslider cannot be forgiven) to salvation without grace. St. Augustine is treated cautiously in the Eastern Church. We had our issues to deal with also but some of Augustine’s theology is uneven for us.

Surely I am no scholar & forgive any clumsiness in my post.

 

[public hermit]

This does not mean only a Christian can love their neighbor or that a non Christian cannot be saved

I think this is one of the more unique responses, so far, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

I hear you saying that only by grace can we fulfill the command to love our neighbor, whether Christian or not. It could be that non-Christians fulfill the command, but if they do it's by grace. It could also be that they will be saved, of course by grace, but it's not really for us to know. Would that be an accurate rendering of what you said? Would you say that is the Orthodox position, in general?

 

[Lukaris]

I think this is one of the more unique responses, so far, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

I hear you saying that only by grace can we fulfill the command to love our neighbor, whether Christian or not. It could be that non-Christians fulfill the command, but if they do it's by grace. It could also be that they will be saved, of course by grace, but it's not really for us to know. Would that be an accurate rendering of what you said? Would you say that is the Orthodox position, in general?

I believe so. I have talked to a couple priests re this over time & believe my recall is accurate.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I think this is one of the more unique responses, so far, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

I hear you saying that only by grace can we fulfill the command to love our neighbor, whether Christian or not. It could be that non-Christians fulfill the command, but if they do it's by grace. It could also be that they will be saved, of course by grace, but it's not really for us to know. Would that be an accurate rendering of what you said? Would you say that is the Orthodox position, in general?

I believe you misunderstand the meaning of grace...God's undeserved love toward us and the time He offers each individual to become a believer...that is my understanding.
Though some unbelievers offer their lives for another or sacrifice themselves to a false God (as some have done in pagan religions) this self-sacrifice still falls short from the love we show as Christians who by power of the Holy Spirit show love to God and to our neighbors...see I Corinthians 13 for reference.
We are saved through faith in Christ alone...He credits us with righteousness to be acceptable to God. This also is what is meant in John 15:5. See also John 3:18 and we could go on.
What you are speculating about is salvation by works which is a heresy. See Ephesians 2:8-0.

 

[Noxot]

no one can love with the God kind of love except with God. all goodness comes from God and we can either partake of it or not. there is a complex ordering in Spirit where whatever we pick is who we dwell with. so there are many angels set over various things and people and they partake of God and so even if we do not directly believe in God there is still some actual reality of some kind of belief in God in the spirit and with various good angels who also love God. therefore for example even atheist evolutionary biologist have much opportunity to partake more or less in God even if they do not directly have a belief in God. God judges the inner man of the heart.

it is common sense that God is the God of all of reality.