Must one have the help of Divine grace in order to love their neighbors as themselves?

[chilehed]

In practice I wouldn't know who influences Catholic thought more, St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas, but if the later wouldn't there be a bit more ability on the side of human nature?

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are both towering figures, and it's not really possible to compare their influence in terms of more or less. But Thomas had a very firm understanding of fallen man's inability to wish or do any good without God's grace, and he and Augustine are in perfect agreement.

www.newadvent.org/summa/2109.htm

 

[DamianWarS]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

man is created in the image of God and although that image has fallen we still bear "God-image" characteristics as we do fallen-image characteristics. in each moment God calls us but for the unbeliever that may sound and look different but still exists in any circumstance so the unbeliever may rise to the occasion of loving their neighbour. "God-image" choices draw us closer to God and his will and desire for our lives, ultimately with each "God-image" choice, it leads us to Christ and his redemption, salvation and life where "fallen-image" choices separate us from God and ultimately leads us to death. think of the darkest circumstances, in those moments an individual may rise to a choice lead by God regardless of how they understand God or they may continue their path of destruction. These choices don't save us and it is no sinners prayer, for the unbeliever they are choices of ignorance and for most people they need someone to help them see the light but that doesn't remove God's influence in these moments. How else would the world go round if God did not spin it first?

 

[public hermit]

"God-image" choices draw us closer to God and his will and desire for our lives, ultimately with each "God-image" choice, it leads us to Christ and his redemption, salvation and life where "fallen-image" choices separate us from God and ultimately leads us to death

I like your God-image choice/fallen-image choice distinction.

How else would the world go round if God did not spin it first?

Well put!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

man is created in the image of God and although that image has fallen we still bear "God-image" characteristics as we do fallen-image characteristics. in each moment God calls us but for the unbeliever that may sound and look different but still exists in any circumstance so the unbeliever may rise to the occasion of loving their neighbour. "God-image" choices draw us closer to God and his will and desire for our lives, ultimately with each "God-image" choice, it leads us to Christ and his redemption, salvation and life where "fallen-image" choices separate us from God and ultimately leads us to death. think of the darkest circumstances, in those moments an individual may rise to a choice lead by God regardless of how they understand God or they may continue their path of destruction. These choices don't save us and it is no sinners prayer, for the unbeliever they are choices of ignorance and for most people they need someone to help them see the light but that doesn't remove God's influence in these moments. How else would the world go round if God did not spin it first?

In this view: Then how can the words of Jesus be true in that God alone is good?
Granted, I am not saying that man is not capable of keeping God's laws to some degree like in Romans 2:14 because it is a part of their genetic makeup or nature, but I don't think man is capable of truly loving like a true believer can. For the believer does not do good on their own power but they are merely reflecting the light of God to shine through their lives. God changes a believer's heart and then lives in a believer. This is not possible for an unbeliever. Sure, the Spirit can convict the world of sin (John 16:8-9) but this does not mean they are actually loving in the same way or doing good in the same way as a true Spirit filled believer does.

 

[Freth]

We cannot comprehend what true love is without the help of the Holy Spirit. We think we know, but we don't understand until it is revealed to us. I had such an experience and it changed my life. Love is everything.

 

[aiki]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

Well, there are kinds of love, right? A parent will love a pet dog differently than a son or daughter (at least, I would hope so). I love chocolate, but not like I love my wife; I love beautiful sunsets but not in the way I love classical music; I love my favorite fantasy novel but not in the way I love catching a big fish. And so on.

Non-Christians love each other. It's quite absurd, as you say, to assert otherwise. Their love is human, however, not originating in, guided, and leading to, God. The heart of human love is Self; the heart of agape love is God. Human love follows a human will; agape love follows God's will. Human love illuminates humanness; God's love illuminates Himself. God's love is perfect, bounded by holiness and truth, spiritual. Human love is sensual, tainted by human selfishness, frequent self-deception, and sin. These profound differences between God's love and human love mean it is impossible for a person to love as God has commanded in their own human resources of love.

 

[DamianWarS]

In this view: Then how can the words of Jesus be true in that God alone is good?
Granted, I am not saying that man is not capable of keeping God's laws to some degree like in Romans 2:14 because it is a part of their genetic makeup or nature, but I don't think man is capable of truly loving like a true believer can. For the believer does not do good on their own power but they are merely reflecting the light of God to shine through their lives. God changes a believer's heart and then lives in a believer. This is not possible for an unbeliever. Sure, the Spirit can convict the world of sin (John 16:8-9) but this does not mean they are actually loving in the same way or doing good in the same way as a true Spirit filled believer does.

I'm not defining good outside of God but quite the opposite that if a choice truly is good, it must be under the influence of God. Believer or not, we may reject or accept the influence of God. Philip was directed by an angel of the Lord to go to a certain place where he met an Ethiopian eunuch reading scripture. When Philip asked him if he understood the words his remark was "how could I, unless someone guides me".

What part of this circumstance was influenced by God? we know Philip was but what about the Ethiopian? At what point was he led by God to read the scriptures even though he did not understand them or was not [yet] a believer? Clearly, the Ethiopian comes under the influence of God and gets baptized but I'll suggest that the Ethiopian responded to the call of God well before he ever met Philip. Philip was the catalyst to get him to a point where he could not get himself but choices were made before Philip came into the picture to prepare the visit for Philip. All of it was under the influence of God. This account shows us that although God calls individuals he uses believers as well as a part of that call so we cannot discredit our involvement with God's influence upon others nor can we discredit the steps taken by the unbeliever to get to that point of belief as also under the influence of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not defining good outside of God but quite the opposite that if a choice truly is good, it must be under the influence of God. Believer or not, we may reject or accept the influence of God. Philip was directed by an angel of the Lord to go to a certain place where he met an Ethiopian eunuch reading scripture. When Philip asked him if he understood the words his remark was "how could I, unless someone guides me".

What part of this circumstance was influenced by God? we know Philip was but what about the Ethiopian? At what point was he led by God to read the scriptures even though he did not understand them or was not [yet] a believer? Clearly, the Ethiopian comes under the influence of God and gets baptized but I'll suggest that the Ethiopian responded to the call of God well before he ever met Philip. Philip was the catalyst to get him to a point where he could not get himself but choices were made before Philip came into the picture to prepare the visit for Philip. All of it was under the influence of God. This account shows us that although God calls individuals he uses believers as well as a part of that call so we cannot discredit our involvement with God's influence upon others nor can we discredit the steps taken by the unbeliever to get to that point of belief as also under the influence of God.

Interesting. This is true. This reminds me of the time of how even God warned Abimelech in a dream and God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him in Genesis 20:1-7. The same can be said for God's influence upon Saul's messengers to prophesy (1 Samuel 19:20). So I suppose that men can be influenced by God to do good even if they are not saved. So my bad. I had a memory lapse for a moment. Thanks for the correction.

May God bless you greatly today.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

"We love because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19

 

[lsume]

I can go along with this. Wouldn't that mean when anyone loves it's under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The difference being, some know it and acknowledge it?

I definitely learned the difference between my love and God’s Perfect Love though I don’t seem to recall my original understanding of Love. When Christ came to me and opened my eyes was over 30 years ago.

 

[grasping the after wind]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

Here are my thoughts.

We can certainly love our neighbor to a degree, all humans are capable of that. We aren't just commanded to love our neighbor though, but to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. That is a whole standard deviation and more above simply loving our neighbor. I don't think that it is the function of Grace to remake us into beings that are capable of fully loving neighbors as much or as intensely as we love our own self. Grace does not cause us to fulfill the command, it allows us to be in communion and reconciled with with God while falling short of fulfilling the command. As long as we remain human beings in a fallen world we will fail to have the ability to completely fulfill both of the Two Great commandments. If we had that ability we would not need a Savior.

 

[friend of]

I believe loving one's enemies is divine and certainly not a product of a fleshly person. For us to love our enemies requires God shining a light on in our hearts.

 

[disciple Clint]

I'm glad you said this. I would have thought it would be mostly Protestants who held that sin has had such an effect that without grace, all love is tainted by self-interest. In practice I wouldn't know who influences Catholic thought more, St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas, but if the later wouldn't there be a bit more ability on the side of human nature? I don't really know, but I'm curious.

I am thinking Augustine had a more effective influence if for no other reason than his contribution was to the early church while Theology was still in flux.

 

[SANTOSO]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

Dear one,
Are you sure that you understand rightly what you have said ?

Why ? Apostle Paul have asked us to understand this :
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. -2 Timothy 3:1
For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, -2 Timothy 3:2
heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, -2 Timothy 3:3
treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, -2 Timothy 3:4
having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. -2 Timothy 3:5
For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, -2 Timothy 3:6
always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. -2 Timothy 3:7

Are you sure that others don’t need the help of divine grace to love their neighbors as themselves, understanding that there will be such people in the last days ?

Considering that, would you and others still think grace is unnecessary?

This is what we have heard:
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. -Romans 5:15

So do you still think those who believe the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ as absurd ?

the Lord Jesus Himself have said in John 3:16-18

So why are you saying that we who believe on what the Lord Himself have said seem absurd ?

For denying the help of divine grace is denying the grace of one man Jesus Christ that God gave.

Is grace unnecessary? Is the grace of
that man Jesus Christ unnecessary?

So dear one, come to back to His grace of
repentance.

We all need the grace of that one man Jesus Christ to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Are you considering that we can’t do it consistently?

We are not to call to judge one another but it is for our master to judge whether we fall or rise. Yes, we are still need to be taught, rebuked, corrected, and trained in righteousness of Christ’s love. Also,
we continue to believe what apostle Paul have said :

And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. -Philippians 1:6

So dear one, in the last days we all need to hold onto the grace of that one man Jesus Christ to strengthen our hearts to bear with one another, to forgive one another, just as God has forgiven us.

It is of importance that we come to our Heavenly Father that we be granted the strength to grasp the love of Christ.

For all we need to grasp the love of Christ more than Christ ever in the last days.

So let our love may abound more and more in knowledge and discernments that we may approve the excellencies of Christ’s love that enable us to love our neighbors as He have commanded us.

 

[David Hunter]

I know from my experience it's impossible for me to love others without the love from God that He has given to me. Example is, there's someone who keeps wronging my family and then bad thoughts start going through my head, but then I'm conscious of it so I pray to the Lord and He changes my thought process to that of love.

Even in my readings today (1 & 2 John) talk a lot about love.

 

[Joyous Song]

That's a helpful way of looking at, that God's grace is not limited to Christians.

I think it's obvious that some who don't claim to be Christian can and do exhibit genuine love for others. And, as you mentioned, there are plenty of bad examples of those who do claim to be Christian. No doubt it's difficult for any to be consistent in love.

Public Hermit wrote: That’s helpful way of looking at, G-d’s grace is not limited to Christians.

I think it’s obvious that some who don’t claim to be Christian can and do exhibit genuine love for others. And as you mentioned, there are plenty of bad examples of those who do claim to be Christens. No doubt it’s difficult for any to be consistent in love.

JS: I glad I can help and yes it it is hard for us to constantly show G-d like love. What many forget or ignore is that many faiths reach for the Spirit of G-d or the Creator. For example: Christens believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jews believe in the G-d of A’vrahim, Yitzack, a Yaacov, and Arabs believe in the G-d of Ibrehim, Yasick and Ishmeal. All three are titles belong to the same G-d!

As for other faiths there are Indian tribes that prayed to the Creator long before Christian missionaries stepped foot on American soil. HaShem’s hunger to save all creation is such that He did not limited His love and work among just a few chosen people though initially He concentrated on Abraham..

Indeed often the atheist and agnostic we see are such because of Christian hypocrisy, our actions or inaction created them. We may see an unbeliever, but the merciful Savior often sees the child before their faith in Hashem was torn from them. Often beneath that doubt and anger lies a faith that is actually sleeping and coming out in spurts through acts of love. This what Christ meant when He said:


“The wind (Spirit) blows where it Wills, and you can hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or where it goes; so it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Jn.3.8


The true Spirit comes from HaShem and we can hear this in the words and actions of those led by this Spirit. We may not truly know the origins from this evidence (especially if they are not Christian) or where the Spirit is leading one we are seeing, only HaShem, Praise be He, knows. Yet we should see evidence, those acts of true love in those truly reborn in the Spirit.

Thus acts of Love are the litmus paper to test the Spirit’s existence within another. Also people may need help from Divine Grace even if they are not what we consider believers after all “The wind (Spirit) blows where it Wills”. So perhaps there is an important lesson in that He reaching out to those we consider G-dless, and not reaching to many we might considered to be alive in Him.

 

[Joyous Song]

I think it's a lot easier to love neighbors who are more like myself than those who aren't. Similarities encourage camaraderie and relatability. Giving is easier.

Those with opposing dispositions are harder to love. It requires greater effort and sacrifice to share ourselves with someone who rubs us the wrong way. The natural response is to repel not embrace. That's when God steps in. You wouldn't do it of your own volition—and couldn't in some instances—without Him.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

I struggled with one woman in our congregation for years, talk of rub the wrong way. Then I learned my personality. I have trouble with emotional people especially emotional people who emotions rule over their minds. This was her issue. I learned to have to affirm her emotions to help her calm down and listen. So I did this and the conflicts became far fewer.

 

[bèlla]

I struggled with one woman in our congregation for years, talk of rub the wrong way. Then I learned my personality. I have trouble with emotional people especially emotional people who emotions rule over their minds. This was her issue. I learned to have to affirm her emotions to help her calm down and listen. So I did this and the conflicts became far fewer.

All personalities have their quirks and high points. Some resonate more than others. That's usually a reflection of similar temperaments, values, or experiences. But that doesn't hold true for everyone. Some look for differences and peculiarities to round out their circle. That isn't the norm for most.

I'm very upbeat and positive and warn people upfront. I'm not in a good mood. That's me everyday. I'm driven and direct my attention towards personal improvement, spiritual growth, and fulfilling my purpose. My conversation reflects that. I don't dwell on current events, conspiracies, or end times. I'm present minded.

That can be difficult to handle if your disposition differs. But it has its purpose as does the opposite. God made me this way. There are people in the world who need that energy and inspiration. Ministering to them is a joy.

But I can't be all things to everyone and I don't try. I know my limitations and gifting and operate within my sphere. Deviations remove me from my rightful place and the result is heaviness and fatigue. I feel weighed down. I feel differently when I'm where I belong. There's energy, passion, and so on. I don't have that when I stray.

~bella

 

[Dorothy Mae]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

There are times when it is in us to love others as we love ourselves. Atheists do this as well. Grace is needed on points we cannot do so on our own. This might be different in different people.

So sometimes we can do good. He wants to help overcome the points where we cannot.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?

Divine grace is given to all...the time frame of one's birth to one's death to find and follow Jesus who is God over all.
I wee love for the fellow man in unbelievers as well as in believers. The unbeliever has a conscience, God's righteous commands are written on his heart...Romans 2:15.
Jesus makes it clear that unbelievers love on another also in Matthew 5:43-47.
This love falls short in God's eyes...see I Corinthians 13:1-3.
Hope this helps.