Must one have the help of Divine grace in order to love their neighbors as themselves?

public hermit

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On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other hand, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?
 
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Joyous Song

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On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?


I believe Divine grace is not limited to Christians. Clearly if His cross covered all those who hungered for salvation before He came, should it not also cover all those who still do but do not yet see HIM because of so many bad examples of those who claim to be saved by Him.
 
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A_Thinker

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I believe Divine grace is not limited to Christians. Clearly if His cross covered all those who hungered for salvation before He came, should it not also cover all those who still do but do not yet see HIM because of so many bad examples of those who claim to be saved by Him.
I think that loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself consistently is hard, ... and grace is necessary to enable us to reach God's level of expectation ...
 
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Joyous Song

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I think that loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself consistently is hard, ... and grace is necessary to enable us to reach God's level of expectation ...

It is harder yet still harder I find is loving HIM with Heart, Mind and strength or in other words everything that is within us. Love of neighbor and even our enemies comes from this first love, because we, indeed al creation was made in His image. Without grace, I agree all this would be indeed impossible.

Yet what I was saying and I think public hermit was saying is their are many outside this sheep's fold that will be accepted by Him.
 
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public hermit

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I believe Divine grace is not limited to Christians. Clearly if His cross covered all those who hungered for salvation before He came, should it not also cover all those who still do but do not yet see HIM because of so many bad examples of those who claim to be saved by Him.

That's a helpful way of looking at, that God's grace is not limited to Christians.

I think it's obvious that some who don't claim to be Christian can and do exhibit genuine love for others. And, as you mentioned, there are plenty of bad examples of those who do claim to be Christian. No doubt it's difficult for any to be consistent in love.
 
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public hermit

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I think that loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself consistently is hard, ... and grace is necessary to enable us to reach God's level of expectation ...

That makes sense. It's one thing to fulfill the command every now and again. It's another to do so consistently.

What about those who do claim to be Christian, but appear to consistently love others, even giving their lives for others. Is God's grace operative in those instances, as well?
 
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Our flesh's tendency toward Original Sin throws a monkey wrench into every Godly pursuit. Yes, grace is necessary to overcome it (in practice).

Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit doesn't need 100% success in order to train our hearts in the right direction.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?
The flesh harbors much evil and hate. This is shown in many ways by our actions, not giving a thought to how something could be unloving. Though everyone, for the most part, loves , it is the deeper unconditional love that God seeks for us. The flesh fights this love but the Spirit is willing. This is why a Christian's capacity to love, if they walk with the Spirit, will always shine a brighter light upon others because it is unexpected. Blessings.
 
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bèlla

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I think it's a lot easier to love neighbors who are more like myself than those who aren't. Similarities encourage camaraderie and relatability. Giving is easier.

Those with opposing dispositions are harder to love. It requires greater effort and sacrifice to share ourselves with someone who rubs us the wrong way. The natural response is to repel not embrace. That's when God steps in. You wouldn't do it of your own volition—and couldn't in some instances—without Him.

Yours in His Service,

~bella
 
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Pavel Mosko

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What do you think?


Yes Divine grace is needed. But things are often about what the Eastern Orthodox call "phronema" a state of mind. Folks have mentioned non-Christians showing love etc. This is made possible because the Imago Dei that all humanity is created in. Unlike the West especially Protestantism like Calvinism, the Fall is seen less pessimistically in the East. Basically it damaged the Imago Dei but did' not destroy it.


But anyway back to Phronema a lot of things are about a state of mind, as far as living intentionally etc. It is the kind of attitude you bring to bear. This also is why some non-Christians much the chagrin of some Fundamentalists, can actually do well. They want to make everything about "Satanic counterfeits" etc. and overlook other passages that would undermine it like "a Kingdom divided cannot stand" etc. But the Bible has a lot to say about Phronema. I do not read passages like "Being Born Again" about having some kind of cathartic experience from praying the Sinner's Prayer (which is proof that you are saved) but about issues like Phronema, having your mind renewed in Christ etc. Basically you often have to unlearn some things of your past to embrace the way of God.

By the way on the issue of "believer" and "nonbeliever", a few years ago I blogged this (around Christmas time)....


Contemplating the Coming of the Magi
Sometimes we Christians like to divide the World into neat little categories. We like to have “believer" and "unbeliever", "Christian" and "non-Christian" and so forth Sometimes however real life doesn’t conform to such simplistic thinking. Because in the Gospels for example "Those outside Israel" sometimes could be "Close to the Kingdom of God", while those that were of natural Israel and devoutly practiced the old religion had "hearts that are far from God".

A good example of that is the coming of the Magi in the gospels. Those folks were mostly likely Zoroastrians from the region of Nineveh, (if we take the testimony of later Church historians seriously). These people had a close connection to the Jews during the first time of Exile. Some people think of Zoroastrians as "pagans" but they really have more in common with Monotheists in their beliefs than the other people of the pagan world. When we think about them we should realize that in the early Scriptures not all the people of God came directly from Abraham's line. Every so often we encounter someone like Melchizedek or Job. Even Balam the prophet, before he became corrupt was seen as being a "prophet of God".

When we contemplate the Magi, we should not forget that Abraham himself came from their region a few millennia previously. In fact, the name Hebrew is said to derive from this culture. It comes from an ancient Akkadian or Proto-Aramaic word meaning “They that dwell beyond the River” (Euphrates).
We therefore should not be surprised why the events recorded in the Book of Jonah take place. We have sayings “what comes around goes around”. And that certainly is true with the Kingdom of God itself. Or as scripture says, in Ecclesiastes 11: 11 “Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days.”
God who stands beyond Time itself knows all things. Besides being the place where the ancient Hebrews came from, he also knew it as a place that held great future promise for Christianity.
Isaiah 19: 23In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. This is one of those prophesies that already has been at least partially fulfilled. For the Coptic Christians and Syriac Orthodox Christians have been worshiping Christ and been in Communion with each other for nearly two millennia.
It was the place that saint Thaddeus (aka Jude the apostle) later missionized and turned into an Apostolic See that stretched forth all the way to India and China, which lasted until the late middle ages and continues today (although greatly diminished). Besides that, this region has been the home of great saints like Isaac of Nineveh (Saint Isaac the Syrian).
It is of course this same region and the Christians that dwell therein that very much need our prayers. For they struggle everyday against persecution and genocide by Islamic Fundamentalist groups like ISIS.
 
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Halbhh

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On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?
Some (who might not post or be visible, but will read) might reasonably think that since they love some neighbors, then they are doing "Love your neighbor as yourself" fully, since they did love a neighbor or 3.

Why would we need grace though even though it's clearly obvious that people do love others even without knowing God: because we are all people that have sinned and fallen short, too much. (For instance, we loved Henry and Jane but ignored Patricia. And then moved.) We'd be condemned in the end without that Grace that cleanses us if we simply confess/repent (1rst John).
 
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Halbhh

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On the one hand, it would seem grace is not necessary. The principle, ought implies can, suggest as much. If we are commanded to love our neighbors it seems would should be able to do so without special divine help.

On the other, if we could fulfill the command without divine help, then why would we need grace at all? Perhaps our sin condition keeps us from being able to love as we should, and divine grace is necessary to help us do what we are otherwise unable to do. Of course, if this is true, the only people who ever love would be Christians, which seems absurd, on the face of it.

What do you think?
It is true though that there is 'love' that is better, more lasting...

And we do learn He is the source in John chapter 15. :) And specifically how to abide in Him.
 
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public hermit

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Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit doesn't need 100% success in order to train our hearts in the right direction.

Can you say more about this? Do you mean even though we might not get love of neighbor right every time, there is a trajectory in the right direction?
 
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public hermit

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Though everyone, for the most part, loves , it is the deeper unconditional love that God seeks for us. The flesh fights this love but the Spirit is willing

As always you have good thoughts to share. That deeper unconditional love is difficult, even with the Spirit's help. But, I agree, when we succeed it shines bright.
 
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public hermit

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Those with opposing dispositions are harder to love. It requires greater effort and sacrifice to share ourselves with someone who rubs us the wrong way. The natural response is to repel not embrace. That's when God steps in. You wouldn't do it of your own volition—and couldn't in some instances—without Him

I guess that willingness (with God's help) to love the "unlovable" and be merciful to those who rub us the wrong way is what is supposed to set us apart. Even tyrants love their own.
 
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public hermit

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Yes Divine grace is needed. But things are often about what the Eastern Orthodox call "phronema" a state of mind. Folks have mentioned non-Christians showing love etc. This is made possible because the Imago Dei that all humanity is created in. Unlike the West especially Protestantism like Calvinism, the Fall is seen less pessimistically in the East. Basically it damaged the Imago Dei but did' not destroy it.


But anyway back to Phronema a lot of things are about a state of mind, as far as living intentionally etc. It is the kind of attitude you bring to bear. This also is why some non-Christians much the chagrin of some Fundamentalists, can actually do well. They want to make everything about "Satanic counterfeits" etc. and overlook other passages that would undermine it like "a Kingdom divided cannot stand" etc. But the Bible has a lot to say about Phronema. I do not read passages like "Being Born Again" about having some kind of cathartic experience from praying the Sinner's Prayer (which is proof that you are saved) but about issues like Phronema, having your mind renewed in Christ etc. Basically you often have to unlearn some things of your past to embrace the way of God.

By the way on the issue of "believer" and "nonbeliever", a few years ago I blogged this (around Christmas time)....


Contemplating the Coming of the Magi
Sometimes we Christians like to divide the World into neat little categories. We like to have “believer" and "unbeliever", "Christian" and "non-Christian" and so forth Sometimes however real life doesn’t conform to such simplistic thinking. Because in the Gospels for example "Those outside Israel" sometimes could be "Close to the Kingdom of God", while those that were of natural Israel and devoutly practiced the old religion had "hearts that are far from God".

A good example of that is the coming of the Magi in the gospels. Those folks were mostly likely Zoroastrians from the region of Nineveh, (if we take the testimony of later Church historians seriously). These people had a close connection to the Jews during the first time of Exile. Some people think of Zoroastrians as "pagans" but they really have more in common with Monotheists in their beliefs than the other people of the pagan world. When we think about them we should realize that in the early Scriptures not all the people of God came directly from Abraham's line. Every so often we encounter someone like Melchizedek or Job. Even Balam the prophet, before he became corrupt was seen as being a "prophet of God".

When we contemplate the Magi, we should not forget that Abraham himself came from their region a few millennia previously. In fact, the name Hebrew is said to derive from this culture. It comes from an ancient Akkadian or Proto-Aramaic word meaning “They that dwell beyond the River” (Euphrates).
We therefore should not be surprised why the events recorded in the Book of Jonah take place. We have sayings “what comes around goes around”. And that certainly is true with the Kingdom of God itself. Or as scripture says, in Ecclesiastes 11: 11 “Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days.”
God who stands beyond Time itself knows all things. Besides being the place where the ancient Hebrews came from, he also knew it as a place that held great future promise for Christianity.
Isaiah 19: 23In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. This is one of those prophesies that already has been at least partially fulfilled. For the Coptic Christians and Syriac Orthodox Christians have been worshiping Christ and been in Communion with each other for nearly two millennia.
It was the place that saint Thaddeus (aka Jude the apostle) later missionized and turned into an Apostolic See that stretched forth all the way to India and China, which lasted until the late middle ages and continues today (although greatly diminished). Besides that, this region has been the home of great saints like Isaac of Nineveh (Saint Isaac the Syrian).
It is of course this same region and the Christians that dwell therein that very much need our prayers. For they struggle everyday against persecution and genocide by Islamic Fundamentalist groups like ISIS.

Pavel, you are always a wealth of information. I have to be honest, as a Protestant, I am so grateful for the Orthodox perspective. It has changed a lot of my former assumptions, particularly how we view human nature and sin. It is much more in line with Irenaeus than Augustine, which I appreciate and agree with.
 
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public hermit

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Some (who might not post or be visible, but will read) might reasonably think that since they love some neighbors, then they are doing "Love your neighbor as yourself" fully, since they did love a neighbor or 3.

Why would we need grace though even though it's clearly obvious that people do love others even without knowing God: because we are all people that have sinned and fallen short, too much. (For instance, we loved Henry and Jane but ignored Patricia. And then moved.) We'd be condemned in the end without that Grace that cleanses us if we simply confess/repent (1rst John).

So, would you say grace is primarily about justification (salvation) and not so much to help us love more like Christ, or both? Are the two separable?

I remember you saying that you came to faith by putting the "love your neighbor" command to the test, kind of like a hypothesis you were trying to prove/disprove, and the success of that was part of how you came to faith. So, maybe grace is not necessary for one to truly love. Or, perhaps grace was working in you that whole time?
 
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bèlla

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I guess that willingness (with God's help) to love the "unlovable" and be merciful to those who rub us the wrong way is what is supposed to set us apart. Even tyrants love their own.

Yes. We can’t all be charming hermits with green thumbs and a penchant for grilling. ;)
 
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Halbhh

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So, would you say grace is primarily about justification (salvation) and not so much to help us love more like Christ, or both? Are the two separable?

I remember you saying that you came to faith by putting the "love your neighbor" command to the test, kind of like a hypothesis you were trying to prove/disprove, and the success of that was part of how you came to faith. So, maybe grace is not necessary for one to truly love. Or, perhaps grace was working in you that whole time?
There's a mystery, that last question. It's very reasonable though to see Grace at work, because it was an...interesting thing, where the next door neighbor on one side actually had as a favorite band which he would play outdoors on his back porch (where I passed by) the same band at that time which was my own favorite band. heh heh So, it's like I had a lift/help to get over the first big hump, to help overcome my reluctance to put myself out.
 
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Do you mean even though we might not get love of neighbor right every time, there is a trajectory in the right direction?
Yes. The reason that we cannot bring these bodies into Heaven (and must receive new ones) is that they are tainted by sin, but it doesn't stop the Spirit from redeeming our hearts & spirits. It almost seems like a form of spiritual "resistance training."
 
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