Muslims and Jesus

[kat.wan001]

Okay, a bit of a hot topic in the media at the moment - I despair sometimes at all the hate that's evident but try to reassure myself it's just a sign of the times and God is in control.
This is my question and I don't know if I'll have many different responses to this: Can a Muslim be saved through Christ?
I Live in the Middle East and I'm surrounded by people who love and glorify God. They pray 5 times a day and live their life according to what they've been taught is God's will. The Muslims I know personally seem humble and loving and actually very 'normal' - very different to the perspective you get from the media. Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet and even as the Messiah. They believe he was born of a virgin but they do not believe he is God or the Son of God. The reason for this though is not because of their pride but because they've been taught that to think this way would actually OFFEND the Almighty God as they believe non are equal to him. Nor do they believe that God would have someone die in place of someone else's sins. They simply don't get it that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore part of him - not a different entity and that he died willingly so we might have salvation - it wasn't forced on him.
But surely this is a mistake made out of innocence? In their heart they love God and don't want to offend him. They've been taught the Quran is 'God's word' just as we've been taught that of the bible. Can they help being taught what they have? And do you think they can still be saved? It's also worth noting that if a Muslim does become Christian, they risk their lives in doing so - very scary for the normal, everyday person; especially if they already believe they are serving God the best way they can.
I ask because although it's evident from scripture that no-one can come to the Kingdom of God except through Christ, I am also aware of the fact that before Christ, those who lived a life of devotion to God and died did not go to Hell but went to 'Abraham's bosom'. Do you think it possible that this may still be alternative - a place where those who love God get to see Christ for who he really is when they die and then choose to come to him or not?
These are just questions I'm posing - I really don't know what I think myself and I guess I'm just wanting a bit of discussion.
One thing's for sure - I'm so thankful I've accepted Christ. I just feel sorry for those that haven't - yet. But I am also confident in God's judgement and justice and that he know's the heart.
I guess I might need to be content with 'I don't know' but let me know what you think

 

[Peripatetic]

I recently posted this in another thread:

--
When it comes to people of other faiths, I don't think we know for sure. On one hand, John 14:6 says, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" On the other hand, Psalm 19:1-6 and Romans 1:19-20 tell us that God revealed himself to all people through his creation since the beginning of time, and that nobody has an excuse for not knowing Him. These passages are often used to explain how people in remote tribes can still come to know God even if they never see a Bible. What that tells me is that it is possible to know God (who is also Jesus) through slightly different means than formal Christian dogma. But only God knows whether that tribesman is worshiping Him as He is revealed or a false god that is of the world.
--

So, only God knows whether a Muslim person worships Him, but just gets some of it wrong, or worships a false god that merely has some similarities. It is also fair to ask whether some Christians worship a false god that is of their own making too... especially with all the new age spirituality that is getting mixed in these days.

 

[kat.wan001]

Good points! I know some Christians who try to apply their own interpretations and beliefs and I used to be one of them! It's very easy to start 'thinking outside the box' but then ending up somewhere you never intended to be in the first place and really confusing yourself (I hope that's not what I'm doing at the moment ) ! I think the most important thing is to love God and obey his commands and as Jesus is part of God, it's virtually impossible to love one without the other isn't it? However, even as a Christian I find myself slipping up and I realise I really need Christ and I need to believe that my sins are accounted for otherwise there would be no hope for me! Thank God he came and I do believe others need him too so I find this topic quite confusing!
I do hope to have the opportunity to speak to Muslims about this and that the Holy Spirit guides me as to what to say as I haven't the foggiest idea of where to start! I do know of Muslims who have come to Christ but it's really difficult for them and for the one ministering as they already believe they're doing the right thing!
Thanks for your response

 

[kat.wan001]

Nope, that's my point - from what I know, they're very normal people who seem to love God just as much as Christians do. Thus my initial question.......

In answer to your 2nd question - yes they do risk their lives. In many countries it is punishable by death to convert to Christianity. You're right in saying the people themselves don't hate Christians but that's the law of many Middle eastern countries. Where I am, it's just a prison sentence but I know in other countries such as Saudi Arabia the penalty is more severe. Note, I am talking about conversion from Islam to Christianity. They're fine if you're Christian already!

 

[Sketcher]

They can get saved just the same as everybody else can - through faith in Christ. If they don't believe in the divinity or sacrifice of Christ, then they do not have faith in Christ. There's a difference between having faith in Christ and believing that there was a good man named Jesus who lived in Judea 2000 years ago.

I went to school with a couple of Muslims. I want to see them in Heaven, but I won't unless they become Christians. And when I think of that, it behooves me to pray for them so that they will come to faith in Christ. If I kept a list of the top 10 people I wanted to see saved, they'd be on it.

 

[talitha]

Can a Muslim be saved through Christ?

Yes, but then they will not be Muslims anymore. One cannot worship both the true God and a demonic entity.

You should pray for the people around you that Jesus reveal Himself to them. He has actually revealed himself sovereignly (for example, in dreams and visions) to many Muslims, and some of these have become Christians and risked their earthly lives for the sake of the Gospel.

Do you think it possible that [Abraham's bosom] may still be alternative - a place where those who love God get to see Christ for who he really is when they die and then choose to come to him or not?

I don't know. All we can do is pray that these people whom God loves be freed from deception.


blessings in Jesus
tal

 

[SharonL]

Islam is the end time religion that the Bible speaks of. The Bible tells us that we have no need for a teacher because the laws of God are written on our hearts. That is why you can find tribes that have no connection to the rest of the world still worship - it is written on our hearts.

As far as being peaceful - their Quran speaks of killing all that do not believe as they do - that is not peaceful. Only God knows their hearts and if they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior - we know there are many that do have Jesus as their Lord and Savior and out of fear do not admit it - I pray there are many who believe this.

The Bible does not speak of any place our souls will be other than Heaven or hell. We would like to believe that all good people will be in Heaven, but the Bible is very clear - there is only one road to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ.

 

[talitha]

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

 

[heron]

I have known Muslims similar to what you describe, and they were actually very open to discussions, and respectful of my faith. They also use the word "God" instead of "Allah."

What might help you describe Jesus to them...

They have learned the Abraham/Isaac story as a decision of Abraham, not a mandate of God to sacrifice a person. Christian teachers promote the mandate version, that God provided the scapegoat after seeing that Abraham was willing to obey and sacrifice what was most valuable to him. While the Bible is vague and the Hebrew text just says [sacrifice, and bring your son along.] The real obedience was only to go to the mountain for sacrifice.

Similarly, in the Muslim teaching, the love of Abraham for his son was contrasted to his love for God. He made a choice that he felt would express his devotion, and he hoped it would please God.

God was the one who kept Abraham from making that mistake, and made it clear that He did not want Isaac killed.

This version conveys a more loving God, and a more willing desire to sacrifice. God gave up His Son as a propitiation for our sins. Jesus offered himself as easily as Isaac did. The scapegoat (goat) was a scapegoat (pure sheep) for us (our sin needing repentance). He did not do it out of a mandate, but out of love.

The whole story is about love, and inevitable conflicts of emotion.

While individuals express similar love in their worship, the administration of Islam is often mandate-based. Motivation is sometimes shame-based... while their story of Abraham is love-based.

 

[talitha]

My apologies. The source where I got this seems to have taken phrases from several verses and strung them together. Irresponsible research. My bad for not checking it more closely before posting.

What about this?

Surah 9:
1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

What that says to me is that "Pagans" (ie: non-Muslims) are to be hunted down and killed as long as no treaty has been made with them, and that the only way out of this for the "Pagan" is to basically become a Muslim.

 

[kat.wan001]

Thanks for all your replies guys!

Brian - as I said, I believe you're right about the Quran being peaceful - certainly the Muslims I know are, so if they're anything to go by...... They also worship the same Abrahamic God as we do but do not believe in the trinity as I explained before. It's like being Christian but missing a BIG slice of the pie!

It is a fact that while being a Christian is not illegal in countries in ME - converting and ministering as a Christian actually is - I know, I live here! I can go to Church no problem and have freedom to practise my faith quietly but if I minister to a Muslim or go around 'spreading the word' in a less intelligent fashion to Muslims, or I'm reported as doing so, I risk a prison sentence. In Saudi it's a death sentence - fact. I don't know if that's something that the Quran states or if it's something the Governments have made up but that's how it is, probably because they believe Islam is right. Does the law reflect the attitude of the people? That's another question entirely! I can think of quite a few laws (or lack of them) in the UK I don't agree with as a Christian!

Heron, like you said, most Muslims are really interested in Jesus - you just have to use your intelligence when ministering here - so no standing on the streets with plak-boards!
Thanks for the advice - I will try that next time God gives me the opportunity.

Also, Christians are not seen as 'pagans' in Islam, rather as 'people of the book'. Do you know a Christian is permitted to kill Halal? God and Allah are the same.

It saddens me to read some posts - I really think Muslims and Christians need to 'know' one another better. They have some pretty strange ideas about us too, based on what they see on TV and how many in the West belonging to 'Christian countries' behave (drinking, fornicating, adultery etc). Just as we have pre-conceived ideas about Islam based on the violent actions of a few. If we are to spread the word of Christ, we need to get rid of those preconceptions.

May the Gospel be spread with peace and love then! Amen.

 

[chilehed]

Okay, a bit of a hot topic in the media at the moment - I despair sometimes at all the hate that's evident but try to reassure myself it's just a sign of the times and God is in control.
This is my question and I don't know if I'll have many different responses to this: Can a Muslim be saved through Christ?...

I like the way C. S. Lewis said it in Chapter 15 of The Last Battle. In it, Emeth tells of his meeting with Aslan:

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, thou art welcome." But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me." Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one"" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" I said "Lord, thou knowest how much I understand." But I said also (for the truth constrained me), "Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days." "Beloved," said the Glorious One, "unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."​

Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ.

Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. It's undeniable that these people are seeking God - they may have false ideas about Him but they're seeking Him nonetheless, and NO ONE can seek God except on God's initiative. The fact the they're seeking God, however imperfectly, shows that He is working in their lives.

Jesus said that He has other sheep who are “not of this fold”, and it's not for me to decree that God has no way that they might be brought home, merely because I've been blessed by the knowledge of the best and surest road and they haven't. But be certain: whatever road He provides, will be due only and entirely because of the grace of Christ.

 

[heron]

The Qur'an was not written in English, so we have to recognize that there will be multiple translations, like the Bible has.

While I know some pacifist Muslims, it would be naive to claim peaceful coexistence. Look at the history of countries where both religions represent more than 10% of the population -- there is always some conflict.

"According to the World Evangelical Alliance, over 200 million Christians in at least 60 countries are denied fundamental human rights solely because of their faith. David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, and Peter F. Crossing in their 2009 report in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research (Vol. 33, No. 1: 32) estimate that approximately 176,000 Christians will have been martyred from mid-2008 to mid-2009."

The Voice of the Martyrs Canada :: How many Christians are killed for their faith every year? :: Providing Information and Support for Persecuted Christians

Pakistan has a solid history of religious conflict:
RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE IN PAKISTAN

But I don't want to drag this further off topic. The question was about salvation.

 

[kat.wan001]

Thanks Heron, that's interesting information and a sad example of the times in which we live - but God is in control and we know Christ will win in these cases. Obviously, those who kill and persecute Christians for their faith need to repent, in the same way as 'Christians' who do the same thing also need to do - IRA.

I'm really interested in whether there can be salvation for the peaceful, 'good', normal Muslim people who don't seem so different to ourselves in seeking God and worship and people's views on this. Christ is obviously the only way - but will a God fearing person, who loves and obeys God's commands be sent to hell? Or is Christ, who is God as part of the trinity, so powerful that he can come to people who seek him in different ways? I ask as I think not only of Muslims but also other tribes throughout the world who cannot know Christ, as we know him, in their life-time through no fault of their own; merely innocent ignorance. We are very blessed to live in a society where we've been able to 'hear the Word' and come to Christ. There're some good views on this situation already.

I'm also interested in knowing how to bring these sorts of people to Christ without insulting or compromising their social and religious values, which I believe will be counter-productive. Telling them they're going to hell if they don't believe Jesus is the living Son of God, probably isn't a good place to start, as they've already been taught that to say such is blasphemy. They don't accept the divinity of Christ because of love and respect for God, not out of pride or dis-respect of Christ. They have simply been incorrectly taught, since the time of their birth, that Jesus was a Man - a good man and one that is held in high esteem in Islam.

Thanks everyone! God bless

 

[talitha]

I was a muslim for twenty years. I'm a Christian now, and i live in a total muslim territory. Ask me about it. Whatever.

Asking.

 

[Nathaniel Ellis]

Scripture very clearly states several times that anyone and everyone who believes and Makes Jesus Christ there Lord will be saved:

John 3
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

 

[RemoveBeforeFlight]

Asking.

All right, lets stick to chronology.

In my muslim life, I had never felt islamic doctrines making a sense to me. I was apart from those stuff and was a deist-like person. With some wonder, I started to collect information about Christianity. I mentioned it to someone I trust, who's also a member of this forum. The more I searched, the more it pulled me to itself. Thats how I met Christianity.

Then I began to search for a church near me, to talk with a Christian at least. As I said, here is a total muslim territory and other beliefs are never welcome, thats why there are not more than ten churches in its 5-million capital. I encouraged myself (I was so nervous, and fearful) and get onto way to the church. I looked for it for almost two hours, because as I learned afterwards, it was nothing but an apartment. No cross, no sign. So I had to ask people where the church is, all staring at me with unwelcome looks. I found it, knocked at the door for ten minutes, got no answer (it was wednesday, so it was closed- how could i know ?) and there was a guy passing by, asked me "Why do you want to see the Pastor (it was a Protestant church)?"

I said "mm.. mm.. I just wanted to talk.."
- Where are you from ?
- I'm a native of this country.
- So why do you believe them ? -walking towards me threatfully-

I had no chance but to get onto bus and leave, things were to get ugly there. This is the first thing about it that I can tell.

Friends.. Countless of times of humiliation, being mocked. Although those that know about this are a few, they are enough to mock me like a crowd does.

Parents... Countless of times I had arguments with them.

My bible and my cross. Two things that strengthens me. I was too afraid to get a Bible in my own language. Instead, I lied to my parents, saying, I need an English Bible for my class. Thats how I got one. You know what my mom said when she first saw it in my hand ? "I'd prefer to be dead now rather than seeing this."

Popular muslim mottos here:

- God doesnt exist, Allah does.
- Best infidel is a dead infidel.
- Allah, harm those who blasphemy by our hands !
- Only true path is Islam and no other religion needs to be respected.

Christians are afraid of expressing their thoughts at free will here. Carrying a necklace with cross around your neck is a reason to get beaten, maybe killed (seriously). I carry it under my tshirt. As far as I can remember, a Father was killed by muslims and a church was bombed as well here. No free will, no freedom of religion at all. Only my parents and a few of my friends know about my religious status. If it spreads around, I'm in serious danger. Christians are godless to them.

Well, that's enough I guess.

 

[talitha]

RBF, thanks so much for sharing this here! I admire you!

 

[RemoveBeforeFlight]

RBF, thanks so much for sharing this here! I admire you!

Well, thanks for reading as well. Christians are considered as spies, traitors here.

Lord have mercy on us all.

 

[SharonL]

Thanks for having the courage to tell it like it is - not quiet the peaceful religion that is being protrayed in a few posts. Your courage in such a dangerous situation makes God soooo proud of you. You will be a great witness.