Musical Modes

[Akita Suggagaki]

I have taken an interest in Modes. I am trying to train my listening skills to identify them.

or

 

[Gunny]

I have taken an interest in Modes. I am trying to train my listening skills to identify them.

View attachment 381686 or View attachment 381687

Outstanding! I started taking lessons on musical instruments at the age of nine. Took weekly lessons until the age of 19.
Good luck in your musical pursuit!
Be blessed!

 

[zippy2006]

I don't think modal music is used much outside of jazz and some traditional liturgical music. For example, if you visit a monastery that chants the Hours you will hear some modal music outside of Ionian and Aeolian.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Mixolydian seem popular in rock.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I know what modes are and even thought up an acronym to remember the order viz. "Idiots don't play lively mixed airy licks" (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian).

I'm aware the Mixolydian mode mentioned by Akita Suggagaki would be the fifth, so a song in C could be transposed to a song in G. Exactly what effect that would have I don't know.

But I'm hard of hearing so I'm behind the eight ball to start with, although I sometimes play the guitar in church.

I'm still trying to work out what modes can be used for in music in a practical sense.

Except perhaps for Aeolian which is the natural minor eg. C --- Am.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Now if a key signature is G and the lowest not of a song is A would that song be Dorian?

 

[zippy2006]

Now if a key signature is G and the lowest not of a song is A would that song be Dorian?

It doesn't matter if A is the lowest note. It matters whether A is the tonal center. Ionian and Aeolian are culturally dominant because they possess a naturally-resolving tonal center. The forms of jazz and monastic music I spoke of feel odd to the Western ear because they do not resolve in the same way that Ionian or Aeolian resolve. In both jazz and monastic music this lack-of-resolution is intentional.

...Blues and Rock will often use a Mixolydian scale, but they are still Ionian (or Aeolian). Their center is the Ionian center, not the Mixolydian center.

Although musicians are often intrigued by modal music, the simple fact of the matter is that, for most purposes, learning modal music is pointless. It just isn't often used nowadays. It is arguably helpful to learn modal "scales," but what is usually happening is that one is learning the Ionian/Aeolian scale in different positions or with different fingerings, rather than learning modal scales proper. A more useful thing to learn is certain scales, such as Mixolydian (dominant 7), harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc., given that they can be more easily integrated into Western popular music as it currently exists.

The complexity also comes into the question itself:

Now if a key signature is G...

If the key signature has one sharp and the mode is Dorian, then we are in the key of A (Dorian). The Ionian/Aeolian assumption is so deeply ground into the Western mind that we read key signatures with the assumption that the piece must be in one of these two modes. Generally one only consults the actual notes in order to determine whether the piece is major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian). The assumption is that it must be one of these two.

 

[Gunny]

I don't think modal music is used much outside of jazz and some traditional liturgical music. For example, if you visit a monastery that chants the Hours you will hear some modal music outside of Ionian and Aeolian.

I took tenor saxophone lessons for several years from a jazz saxophonist. I had taken saxophone lessons for several years prior to the jazz lessons. Everything changed with jazz instruction. Scales, jazz idioms, etc...
I enjoy listening to Gregorian Chants. Been listening to them since I was a young boy.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It doesn't matter if A is the lowest note. It matters whether A is the tonal center. Ionian and Aeolian are culturally dominant because they possess a naturally-resolving tonal center. The forms of jazz and monastic music I spoke of feel odd to the Western ear because they do not resolve in the same way that Ionian or Aeolian resolve. In both jazz and monastic music this lack-of-resolution is intentional.

...Blues and Rock will often use a Mixolydian scale, but they are still Ionian (or Aeolian). Their center is the Ionian center, not the Mixolydian center.

Although musicians are often intrigued by modal music, the simple fact of the matter is that, for most purposes, learning modal music is pointless. It just isn't often used nowadays. It is arguably helpful to learn modal "scales," but what is usually happening is that one is learning the Ionian/Aeolian scale in different positions or with different fingerings, rather than learning modal scales proper. A more useful thing to learn is certain scales, such as Mixolydian (dominant 7), harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc., given that they can be more easily integrated into Western popular music as it currently exists.

The complexity also comes into the question itself:


If the key signature has one sharp and the mode is Dorian, then we are in the key of A (Dorian). The Ionian/Aeolian assumption is so deeply ground into the Western mind that we read key signatures with the assumption that the piece must be in one of these two modes. Generally one only consults the actual notes in order to determine whether the piece is major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian). The assumption is that it must be one of these two.

By tonal center do you mean something like the average tone? or middle tone?

Even with something like Major and Minor using the same notes, the distinguishing feature seems to be which end of the scale most of the notes are clustered.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Now if a key signature is G and the lowest not of a song is A would that song be Dorian?

I asked your question online and as usual an AI answer came up first.

No, a song in the key of G with a lowest note of A is not necessarily in the Dorian mode. While A Dorian uses the G major scale notes starting on A, the lowest note only shows the vocal or instrumental range. It does not define the tonal center or the mode of the song. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Why It Is Not Automatically Dorian

• • Tonal Center: The key of G means G is the home note (tonic). Dorian mode means A is the home note.
  • Lowest Note: The lowest note is just the bottom limit of the melody. It does not mean the song centers around that note.
  • Chord Progressions: A song can touch the note A without making A feel like home. [1, 2, 3]

Other Possibilities

• • G Major (Ionian): The song centers on G. It uses standard G major chords. The note A is just a passing or low melodic note.
  • G Mixolydian: The song centers on G. It uses an F natural instead of F sharp.
  • A Minor (Aeolian): If the song actually centers on A instead of G, it could be in A minor or A Dorian.

I then asked how to know if a song is in Dorian mode. The AI answer was technical, so I looked at this comment instead.

When you play a C Major scale and have emphasis on a note other than C, such as D, then it is D Dorian. The player implies that the D note is the root using the notes of the C Major scale. Another thing is the harmony behind the scale. What chords are being used? That would direct your ear in hearing where the root is. If I play Dmin7 chord and use the C Major scale, I will land on the D note for a completed phrase and that is the sound of Dorian. Each mode has a particular sound. Play each note in the C scale to its first octave ( D to D ) and you will hear the flavor of the mode. Do that with all notes in C Major Scale.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'm not sure if this is entrely correct, but the diatonic chord set for a G major scale would be -

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim.

But for the diatonic mode starting on A within the G scale system, the diatonic chord set would apparently be -

A, Bbm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Gm7.

This means that the second chord is flattened (Bbm), and the seventh chord becomes a minor 7th (Gm7) instead of a diminished chord.

I assume these two chords would give the music its Dorian A modal tone compared to the standard G major scale tone.

Otherwise the sequence appears to be the same. The fourth and fifth (D & E) which usually anchor chord progressions in company with the root haven't changed.

Post Script - to further distinguish G Dorian mode based on A from an A major scale, the diatonic chord set for an A major scale is -

A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, G#dim.

The core chords of dominant I, subdominant IV and dominant (perfect) V are the same. The variation is due to the secondary chords.

Mind you I'm happy to be corrected if there are any music theory gurus around.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Then I am seeing that the last note brings the “resolution”. I am glad I don’t a actually have to know this.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Paul Simon on music throry

Video

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[zippy2006]

By tonal center do you mean something like the average tone? or middle tone?

Even with something like Major and Minor using the same notes, the distinguishing feature seems to be which end of the scale most of the notes are clustered.

It is the tone around which the piece revolves, which is almost always the final note. It is like a musical anchor around which everything else revolves. If you search for "Meinrad Psalm Tones" you can get the notation for some monastic music. This music uses the word "mode" in a slightly different, Gregorian sense, but if you play through the music you will hear some of the ways it differs from our standard Ionian/Aeolian approach.