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Musical Instruments in Worship

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ScottEmerson, Jan 11, 2003.

  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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  2. WayneH

    WayneH Washed in His Blood

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    My Only Comment is READ Psalms 150....................
     
  3. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Ok I read it. It tells me what they did in the old testament time in the temple worship. But it has absoultly nothing to do with christian worship today. Of course we have repeated under the new convenant for us to praise God as well but no insturments are mentioned. We are no longer under the law which includes the 10 commandments, all those things in Lev or those things is Psalms. The only things that we are bound by is those repeated or stated under the new convenant. This is not to say the OT is worthless because it has many wonderful examples and prophecys that we can see that came to pass in the NT. But hey, thanks for your only comment I enjoyed reading Psalm 150 again. Oh one last thing since they used dance for worship in Psalm 150 do you dance in your assembley to praise God? If not why not?

    Cougan
     
  4. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Galatians 5:1-6

    1 Stand fast therefore in the
    liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    5 For we
    through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,
    nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.





    :angel:
     
  5. IslandBreeze

    IslandBreeze Caribbean Queen

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    Isn't God, and his word the same yesterday, today and forever? We still abide by the Ten Commandments, don't we? We still abide by a lot of OT laws and rules, don't we? How can you say that the OT isn't relevant for today?
     
  6. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law [of Moses (Paul has not said the law of good works;)] ye are fallen from grace.

    Our good works will follow us into our rest from our labors. That Sabbath rest for the people of God is for those who by persistence in doing good works seek immortality.

    Nothing we do earns our salvation but if we have nothing to rest from, then we don't get to rest in the bosom of Abraham.
     
  7. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision[OT Law] availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision[NT Law]; but faith which worketh by love.


    Flu, Paul is saying that Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by ANY laws, be it the laws of the OT[circumsized], or laws of the new covenant[uncircumcized]; ye are fallen from grace if you claim justification thru ANY laws. In Jesus Christ neither[circumcision or uncircumcision] availeth ANYTHING!
     
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    WOW!

    Auntie quoted scripture. I'm impressed and shocked at the same time. Autie being bound to a law or being under a law is completely different than being justified by law keeping. I presume that you are trying to imply that I am saying that we can somehow earn our salvation today. It would'nt matter if did good works all our life we could never earn our salvation. But this does not change the fact that we are under a law. No we are not under the old law but we are under Christ law. See post 74.

    If there is no law then grace could never abound.
    If there is no law then there cannot be sin.
    If there in no law the we have no commandments to follow today.

    Again Jesus tells us if we love him we will keep his commandments John 14:15 and it is only those that do the will of the father that will enter into heaven Mat 7:21. We are do be doer of the word. James 1:23. Salvation is only given to those that obey Heb 5:9. When we became Christians we became slaves of righteousness ROm 6 and doing so we will do our duty. Luke 17:7-10. In fact the bible very specifcally says that those that do not obey the word of God they will face everlasting destruction 2Thes 1:8. Yes indeed we will be judged by the word of God John 12:48.

    Are we under a law today? Yes. Can we earn our salvation by our works? no Can we fall from grace if we are not obedient in our faith. Absoultly. So are we bound by the NT Law? absoutley. If your not bound to it you cant be judged by it.
     
  9. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    God is the same but his word has chaged during his different convenants. We are now under the final and last convenant so in that since is word will remain the same. No we dont still abide by the 10 commandments. We do not keep the sabbath . The other 9 commandments were reimplimited in the new covenant and is the only reason we keep them. The old law was nailed to the cross Col 2:14 We only keep and do those things under the new covenant. The Old law in not longer bindinng. I did not say that the OT isnt relevant for today. The bible tells us this.

    Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope.

    The OT is great for reading and learning about the characteristics of God, the many faithful men and women who have left us with great examples, and all that prophecy that came true by the NT time which further shows that there is a God and that the bible we have is indeed the word of God. We cannot use the OT commands and bring them over into the new convenant there is no justifcation for this or authorization.

    That like if they had changed the speeding law from 65 to 55 but you want to drive fast so you drive 65 instead. Try telling the cop that the law use to be 65 so I was'nt speeding. He would probably laugh in your face and explain to you that when a new law comes into effect the old ond becomes obsolete and then hand you a speeding ticket. I will finish with this verse.

    Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new <I>covenant," </I>He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  10. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    &nbsp;

    Note that in the very scripture you quote, Paul says that all that really matters is faith that worketh through love.&nbsp; The Protestant lobby of&nbsp;the NIV translators pulled out all the political stops to get that verse changed to "acting."&nbsp;

    You can't possibly be accusing Paul of advocating lawlessness after he denounces it so frequently.&nbsp; Paul didn't hate law like Calvinists and fundamentalists think he did.&nbsp; Paul was a lawyer and held God's law with the same respect that Jesus did.&nbsp; He just noted, with accurate insight that the law of Moses bound only Jews.&nbsp;

    Please go re-read the Council of Jerusalem and answer why they&nbsp;determined that&nbsp;Gentile Christians&nbsp;had to abstain from the blood of animals.&nbsp; Here's a hint---they accurately read that Christians are bound by the covenant God made with Noah.&nbsp; If we are free from all law as you say, then God can flood the world again.

    Since Peter, James, and Paul were at that Council and since they know more about salvation than both of us, why don't we accept that they said rather than what Luther or Calvin said.
     
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    &nbsp;Originally posted by cougan
    Now really think about what you have said here. You are saying that IF someone is led by the HS it cannot and will not led them to do something found outside of the word of God.
    Scott says
    If someone is led by the Holy Spirit, it cannot and will not lead them to do something found outside the WILL of God. It also will not tell them to do something that would fall OUTSIDE of Biblical truth. Note that there are several things in the world that are not specifically mentioned in the Word, but the Spirit helps us to apply the Biblical teachings to specific situations.



    Cougan says
    So if authorization for musical instruments are not found in the NT as a commandment or an example then HS could not led a person to play them in worship.


    Scott says.
    Incorrect.


    I must say that&nbsp; I am greatly disappointed in you Scott. You challenged me to this debate yet you have done little in defending your view from the bible. When you get backed into a corner then you have to resort to well if the HS leds a person to use musical instruments then its ok. Even though you are a smart and logical person and have stated above that the HS CANNOT led someone or tell them to do something found OUTSIDE the word of God this logic goes right out the window when it goes against your belief. There is no AUTHORIZATION to use musical instruments under the NT and to use them or to claim the HS has led you to use them would be something found outside the word of God yet you answer the 2nd part with INCORRECT. Scott you know that you are being illogical and dishonest with the scriptures. You see you ONLY want to BEND the rules or allow those things into worship that you deem ok. I could list several examples that you would say could not and should not be in worship and if a person claims they were being led by the spirit to do these things they would be wrong because the NT does not authorize such things to be done in worship.

    If the people in here would but just take an honest look at what I have presented in here they would clearly see that musical instruments are not authorized for us to use in worship today. I have answerd all the arguements that were brought forward and shown the error with this erronious arugements.

    Lets review shall we.


    <OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1>

    <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">1.&nbsp;Arguments from silence are logical fallacies. COC states that musical instruments are prohibited because the NT does not speak of them. However, the NT doesn't speak of such things as hymnbooks, songs sung in English, or music leaders, Does this mean to include them as well is unbiblical?

    <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">
    With this first arguement I showed how we are to respect the silence of scripture. I also pointed out that when God told Noah to use Gopher wood to build the ark this excluded all other kinds of wood. When Gods word tells us in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 to sing and to make the melody in our hearts then that is what we are suppose to do and this excludes everything else. I went into great detail what the difference between an AID and ADDITION. Song books and song leaders are aids but musical instruments are an addition because they make another noise and they are something other than vocal music. They can not teach, speak&nbsp;or admonish anyone. You first arguement was corrected.

    <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">&nbsp;
    <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">2.Rom 15:9 says to "sing hymns" and uses the word psallo. This word psallo literally means, "make music". It does not forbid any kind of music a person can make nor does it forbid instruments. Paul encourages the church to sing hymns by quoting Psalm 18:49!


    I stated with this one that this used to be a favorite arguement a long time in public debate. It however no longer is used because of all the evidence that has been brought up about the word Psallo. I have clearly shown what the word Psallo meant during the 1st century times. In fact I showed you how than not one single ancient text defined Psallo during the NT times meaning an musical instrument. When an instrument is intended, the instrument is named. Paul was inspired&nbsp; to name the heart in eph 5:19. Our singing is to be accompanied by melody made with the heart. But a mechanical instrument is not implied by "psallo". If "psallo" included the instrument, then all would need to both sing and play an instrument in order to obey Eph 5:19. It would be wrong to sing spiritual songs without an instrument and Paul and Silias were out of line to sing in prison unless they had mechanical instruments. Then you came up with a desprate answer and said they might of been bang their chains together. I must say that was quit funny and pathetic at the same time.

    I also noted the fact that mutiple of denomination leaders in the past condemend the use of musical instruements and I showed from Lexicons, music historians, and enyclopedias that musical instruments were not introduced until around the 6th century and was not genrally accepted until after 1100 and in other places after the 1800s. I did not list them but I could also show proof from the early Church fathers that they were not used. Anyway you want to look at it this arguement is also corrected.

    3.While the Law was fulfilled, we do not see that the Psalms were fulfilled. The psalms are filled with references of using music, the most known is probably Psalm 150. Jesus fulfilled the 600+ laws of the Pentateuch, but we do not see that he negated the use of instruments.

    I could of easily corrected&nbsp;this arguement with 1 verse. First I pointed out that the old law which included the 10 commandments and the Psalms and those 600 + laws were nailed to the cross when Christ died. Col 2:14. I showed with many verses that we are no longer under the old law and the commandments that are in it. We can not pull things that were acceptable to God in worship like musical instruements and animal sacrifices and bring them over into the new law/convenant. When a new law comes into effect the old law becomes obsolete and we are to keep those things and follow those things specified in the new law of Christ.

    Really quick let me correct your arguement.

    Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

    This one verse takes away your arguement that shows that Jesus fulfilled not only the things of the Law of Moses and the prophets by the Psalms as well.
    The book of Psalms is a part of the Law.
    1.&nbsp;John 10:34 / Ps 82:6
    2.&nbsp;Jn 12:34 / Ps 110:4
    3.&nbsp;Jn 15:25 / Ps 35:19
    4.&nbsp;Rom 3:10-12,14,19 / Ps 14:1-2, 53:1-2

    By the way you never mentioned this arguement again. I even tried to get&nbsp;you to humble yourself and admit that I destroyed this arguement but of course you did not. Anyways this arguement was corrected as well.

    4.Revelations 14:2-3 suggests that worship in the heavens will be accompanied by music - not just singing! So there we go Music is commanded by God! NT worship can and should include music!
    This was another desprate attempt to attempt to try and find justification for using musical instruments in the church. I pointed out that when the instrument was mentioned it was in heaven and it was in symbolic context. If we try and make the harps as being literal and something we are to do here on earth then we need to offer up incense to a literal lamb. The harps and such mentioned here in Rev are symbolic and a symbol cannot represent itself. If you try and say that we need to do like those in heaven then we need not to marry Mat 22:30 nor should we eat. Rev 7:16.

    The truth is, one cannot literalize the figures of speech in the book of Revelation and make earthly applications with them. That is just plain irresponsible exegesis. You last arguement was answered.

    I find it a real shame today that people are more interested in what makes them feel good&nbsp;or what keeps them entertained instead of searhing the word of God to see what HE wants and what HE AUTHORIZES. Man always seems to think he or she can do things better than God and then they add to his word and worship with foriegn things not authorized. Man tries to justify things by saying well if it feels good it has to be right. Man tries to look at what is sociable acceptable for the times instead of looking at what God finds acceptable. The verse has been quoted many times in this thread that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow and this is true he does not chang and his word that has been written down for us in the new convenant has not changed but man comes into play and then the change takes place. It seems so clear to me that God wants us to be spiritual and wants things to come from our heart. He is not interested in some musical instrument he wants the&nbsp;words and praises coming from your heart flowing out over your lips as you sing with your brethern. We went from old law worship which involved lost of&nbsp;physical things to spirtual worship under the new covenant. I just&nbsp;ask all of you to really think about what&nbsp;is important to God and not important to you.&nbsp;Alot&nbsp;of people simply would not worship at a place if there wasnt musical instruments there to make them FEEL a certain way and this is just plain wrong.&nbsp;They have their heart in the wrong place and are&nbsp;selfish and thinking of themselves instead of God.

    Cougan&nbsp;

    [/list]
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    I gave several Scriptures about using instruments that you dismissed in one way or another.

    There is no authorization about microphones either, but you dismiss that by calling it an "aid." From where do you get your Scriptural proof that "aids" are okay?

    And where have I done that?

     
  13. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Ah yes, Cougan, Auntie can quote scripture!:D But even Satan quoted scripture to Jesus, so do not marvel if anyone quotes scripture.


    Musical instruments as worship pleased God in OT days, which DID NOT please Satan, because Satan cannot love the things of God!! In Heaven, God is worshipped with musical instruments, and this pleases God very much! It is a delight to our Father God! But it is NOT pleasing to Satan. Satan HATES to see God worshipped with musical instruments, because Satan CANNOT love the things that God loves!!

    The doctrine that claims it is a sin to use musical instruments to worship God, is a lie from hell, and is VERY pleasing to Satan!!
     
  14. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Wow! that some statement Auntie. So since I am teaching this doctrine, which by the way I have backed up with scripture and many examples, you have boldly said that I am teaching a LIE FROM HELL. It is so easy just to put down words and thoughts on here but its a completely different thing to back it up with the word of God. If you actually would look at the bible honestly you would see that there is no way you can prove that there are musical instruments in heaven. Just like you cant show ANY authorization by word or example in the NT for their use. I have stated it over and over again and even quoted scripture where God commanded the instrument to be used in the OT but he did not command it in the NT/New convenant. Now watch this Auntie if I am aloud to just speak my own thoughts and ideas without using the word of God to back it up I can state the following below.

    The doctrine that claims it is NOT a sin to use musical instruments to worship God, is a lie from hell, and is VERY pleasing to Satan!!

    I have showed you book chapter and verse and have labored very hard to show you clearly that musical instruments are not authoriszed under the new convenant. When you actually get ready to defend your view from the bible instead of just making statements then you will have something to stand on. Maybe you should think about what you are saying before your post it.

    Cougan
     
  15. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    I dismissed them by the word of God and dealt with them all.

    Scott I showed you bibical example after bibical example. Do you suppose that Noah built his ark without any tools? Of course not. Please go re-read what a aid is and what an addition is. I have answed this questions very throughly already.



    Every single time something is obvious and goes againt your view&nbsp;then you do it.

    CORRECT.
    I already showed this is another post. Musical instruments are used for worship and not for an aid. Musical instruments are an addition as they are producing a noise which can not teach or admonish or speak to anyone.

    Where on earth are you getting this idea that only a FEW hold this idea on the word psallo. I mentioned over 30 diffenent sources from Lexicon, musical historians, comentators,and encylopeidias that show without a doubt that during the NT time that the word psallo simply meant to sing. I showed you that when a through study was done of the greek documents during the NT periord&nbsp; that there was not ONE SINGLE use OF PSALLO being used as describing the use of an musical instrument. I showed with clarity that the musical instrument was not used in worship in the 1st century and did'nt really even get introduced until the 6th century. I can show proof of this from the early church fathers and shared with you what those during the restoration movement thought about the musical instruments. You are completely ignoring the history of the word Psallo. I showed your several differing meanings it had during different time periods. I could show you example of other words that we use today that meant something completely different in times past. Again, I have dealt with this fully and suggest you re-read again what I have presented.

    You state that Paul was using a Psalm to&nbsp;praise God. Which verse are you refering to and did Paul read the PSalm or does the verse state that he sung it with an instrument?

    Now lets deal with your Septugant arguement.

    First of all its quite interesting that all 101 scholars of the american revision Committe were all members or churchs that used musical instruments which you would think they would of rendered the word psallo or made comment that it meant to play with an musical instrument but this was not the case because any serious scholar when the look at the differing meaning of Psallo and what it meant during the NT times they would not render it or make note that it meant to play an instrument when all the writting during that time the word psallo meant to sing. The same thing is true with the KJV translator. All of them were members of churchs that had musical instruments but after 14 years of translating the version they to did not not or translate the word psallo to mean a musical instrument. The only thing that stoped them from doing so was the overwhelming evindence that the word psallo meant to sing in the NT times.

    You must also factor in that the septugent was written 200 years before Christ and this is just when the word Psallo started to change its meaning. You will see the word Psallo used for 3 different words in the Septugent which show that the use of Psallo 200 years berfore christ was starting to transform its meaning but at that time it was mainly used to mean to sing with an insturment.

    Nagan always means to play an instrument, but never means to sing.

    Zammar means to sing, though it also means to sing with instrumental accoumpaniment.

    Shire always means to simply sing.

    Nagan is translated 15 times as psallo and zammar is translated 47 times as psallo and shire is translated 1 time as psallo. You can see from these differeing uses of the psallo that that the word was starting to change its meaning. Please not what Leonard F. Bittle says about this word psallo.

    In its primary sense, psallo had no reference to misic at all, but meant merely to touch or twitch or pull, then it was used to denote the drewing of the bowstriing in shooting arrows, afterwards it was restricted to making music on a harp by touhing its strings, then it was applied to singing with the accompaniment of harp-music, finally it was used to nenote singing psalms without any instrument save the organs of speech. In this last and latest sense it is used exclusively in the New Testament.

    When you look at this Hebrew word zamar it not only could mean to sing without any musical accompainiment you would find many times that when it was used in connection with instrumental accompainiment that a seperate word was used to denote the the instrument both in the Hebrew bible and the Septuagint. You can see this in such passages as Psa. 33:2, 98:5, 147:7 and 149:3.

    Once again you see your arguement answered before you eyes. You can not use the Septuagent to help you out our bind. I hope this helps you gain a deeper understanding of time periods and how words change meaning over time. The Septaguent most times were using the word Psallo&nbsp;for the clasical time period but by the time of Jesus the word had changed completly to simply mean to sing as I have shown in great detail in my past post.

    No this incorrect. Some of the early church fathers did start teaching such a thing but not all of them nor did the ones during the restoration movement teach infant baptism as far as&nbsp; I know. Again I showed you evidence from history, encylopedias and others that musical instruments were not used in the 1st century worship.

    You might as well give me the psalm arguement to. I listed all kinds of verses that show the Psalm being part of the law and even you agree that we are not under the law. That was a lame arguement you put above about "I wonder wy he adds after Psalms "concerning me" Maybe it will help you see the problem with your quibble if I post the verse.

    Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These <I>are </I>the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and <I>the </I>Prophets and <I>the </I>Psalms concerning Me."

    He is not saying in this verse that only those things written in the psalms about him no he saying what the verses is clearly stateing that all the things must be fulfilled in the law of moses and prophets and psamls concering me. Do you get it Scott the concerning me includes all 3 things mentioned here. I knew you smarter than this Scott. Why are making such a simple mistake. Go ahead and hand this one over to me to you know you need to.

    Lets keep it simple Scott.&nbsp;2Tim 3:16-17 says that all scripture which would include the NT that we have today&nbsp;makes us complete and througly furnished. If we&nbsp;belive the word&nbsp;of&nbsp;God&nbsp;and keep it simple we&nbsp;can note that the word of&nbsp;God is complete and that we can not add to it or take away from it and this would mean that the HS is not going to add more to what&nbsp;we have since we are completely funrshied with the word that we have. Everything the HS does in leading someone, covicting them,&nbsp;santicfication, etc&nbsp;can be done&nbsp;by means of the&nbsp;word of God.&nbsp;&nbsp;


    If there was authorization of musical instruments in worship the reavealed word of God which came by the HS through the apostles and prophets then I would proclaim from the rooftops that we should use musical instruments in worship today. The problem is though that the HS throught these men did not authorize musical instruments under the new convenant. Its plain an simple to understand but of course leave it up to man to go against the evidence , and the word of God to add to the word and use muscial instruments for worship.

    &nbsp;
     
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Three things:

    1. I read a verse that dismisses all of your talk about everything that is Biblical is found in our modern Bible (despite the claim you make that Paul's statement to Timothy includes the NT, which isn't true)...

    John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

    2. Your use of Noah to explain "add" and "addition" is ingenuous. You are merely extrapolating a story to fit your own bias, when the story found in Genesis in no way is meant for the purpose that you are trying to make.

    3. I gave just as many Greek Scholars (Strong, Berry, Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich, Pickering, Groves, Parkhurst, Dunbar, Greenfield, Maltby, and Hamilton), who agree that psallo may include instmental music. You did not refute them, merely told your side again.

    It is because your evidence to the contrary is lacking merit that your argument fails. An argument from silence is a logical fallacy, and John 21:25 shows easily that not everything that is from God is found in the book of the Bible.
     
  17. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    So you dont think 2 Tim 3:16-17 is refering to the the NT as well. Now I would completely agree with you that verse 15 is talking only about the OT but in these verses 16-17 it would include the NT because you will notice that all or every scripture is inspired by God. You must also note that 2 Tim was written at a late date and most of the NT had already been written. The key here is the word scripture which simply means a writing. The writing of the Old and New Testameant are inspired of God. Haveing both the Old and New Testament we have the complete word of God that througly furnishes us. The word we have in the NT was ispired by God and we can see that from passages such as.

    1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Gal 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

    12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught <I>it, </I>but <I>it came </I>through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    &nbsp;2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke <I>as they were </I>moved by the Holy Spirit.

    So you see Scott the NT is scripture that is inspiried by God.


    This is some of the most illogical thinking I think I have ever seen. So you want to try and use the fact that not all the things that Jesus did that is every detail that this somehow implies that we dont have everthing we need to know with what we do have recorded now in our bibles. This is nonsense. I alrealy showed you in a previous post all the different verses that tells us not to go beyond that which is written or to add or take away from the word of God. The bible clearly tells us in 2 Tim 3:16-17 that the inspired word that we do have throughly furnishish us. If it were necessary for us to know those other things that were not recorded that is something that would add something to the already written word that we needed to know it would of been recorded for us. In fact note the following.

    1. The Scriptures were written to be understood, that one might:
    &nbsp;&nbsp; a. Know the certainty of what happened - Lk 1:1-4
    &nbsp;&nbsp; b. Believe in Jesus, and have life in His name - Jn 20:30-31
    &nbsp;&nbsp; c. Have an apostle's understanding of the "mystery of Christ"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Ep 3:3-5
    &nbsp;&nbsp; e. Know they have eternal life - 1 Jn 5:13
    2. The Scriptures are an all-sufficient guide for our salvation
    &nbsp;&nbsp; a. The whole counsel of God has been preached - cf. Ac 20:27
    &nbsp;&nbsp; c. The Word can save us, and help us grow - Ja 1:21; 1 Pe 2:2
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; d. That we might not sin. 1Jn 2:11&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp; e. It has been revealed once for all - Ju 3
    &nbsp;&nbsp; f. Not even angels or modern apostles have anything new to add - Ga 1:8,9 See Also Rev 22:18 Det 4:2;12:32
    -- The Scriptures are able to make the man of God "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" - 2 Ti 3:16-17 Yes in fact we are to study the word of God to be able to rightly divide the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
    &nbsp;

    Just for good measure I want to add the follow verses.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God <I>is </I>living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;



    I am sorry Scott but I think&nbsp; I will take the word of God for what it says. I know without doubt that we have all we need to know to be saved and to live a christian life and do those things that God would have us to do with the written inspired word that we have. If we can add to the word of God or it is not fully furnishing us then the bible is a lie as it would contridict itself what is plainly stated in 2 Tim 3:16-17

    I did not just juse the Noah story. I used it as a bibical example to help explain the difference between an addition and an aid. What better example to use to explain something than using one of the many good recorded events from the bibical past.


    I don't have to refute them. I took a great deal of time showing how the word psallo had different meanings during different time periods. If you look at these Greek Scholars they will just give a defination of the word and most of the time will not break down the meaning of the word in differing time periods. Did you have any thing to say about this? No Did you have anything to say about the fact that not 1 single time is psallo used as to play an insturment in any of the greek text throghout the NT time? Did you once try and bring proof against the numerous encyclopedias and musical historians and all that I have brought forward that show that musical instruments were not used in worship in the 1st century and in fact they were not even introduced until the 6th century. Do you belive when God says to do something one way that it excludes everything else? In Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 we have this very thing. We are teach, and admonish one another in song making melody in our heart. You did not explain how an instrument can do any of these things. You did not make one single comment on the refluxive pronoun which means that we are all to sing to one another at the same time and if musical instruments are to be used then we all need to be playing and singing.

    I am not lacking evidene at all. Instead I have shown an abundance of evidence. You however are the one lacking. You can not show one example of them useing musical instruments in the NT. You cannot show where using musical instruments are commanded to be used in the NT. Just because you dont want to accept the tons of evidence I gave you gives you no right to say I am lacking evidence. God tells me in his inspired word to sing and this excludes anything other than vocal. You can not speak, teach, or admonish with a musical instrument and you know it. Lets see some evidence my friend from the bible. I am standing on the word of God you however are standing on opinion and speculation with no evidence to back your claim. I am still waiting for your to give me the Psamls arguement because you know that I took it away from you wheather you admit it or&nbsp;not. Glory be to God and his word and that which is authorized under his new convenant Amen.

    Cougan
     
  18. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I'm not even convinced that it says what people generally claim it says, but it certainly doesn't refer to the NT. It refers to the selection of works that Paul would have had in mind when using the word "Scripture" - not a book that wouldn't be finalized for three hundred years.

    Actually, that's a very questionable (though common) translation. The original is ambiguous; it is perhaps better rendered as

    All scripture inspired by God, is suitable for ...

    which is ambiguous as to whether the intent is "all scripture is inspired by God and ...", or "all scripture which is inspired by God is ..."
     
  19. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I can't prove there are voices, there, either, in any sense we'd understand them.

    On the other hand, it seems to me that God created us able to hear harmony, and able to appreciate timbre, and that suggests, to me, that musical instruments are a feature, not a bug.
     
  20. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Well Cougan, can you disagree with this??

    Musical instruments used as worship pleased God in OT days, which DID NOT please Satan, because Satan cannot love the things of God!!


    Let me break it down for you:

    DID musical instruments, used as worship, please God in OT days??
    Yes or no please......

    CAN Satan love the things that please GOD??
    Yes or no please.......




    :wave:
     
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