Musical Instruments in Worship

cougan

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Thank you for you reply Scott. At least yot try and respond to my arguements. I have posted responses to others on this thread using book chapter verse yet none of them ever respond to what I say. I starting to think I am on their ignore list or something. Maybe that just cant respond to what I have posted because the see the truth in it.

Scott you accuse me of plagerism. This simply is not true. Now at times I put what I have read into my own words and at times paste article that have been written on the subject. I am not publishing what I am saying or quoting for sale in a book. I am not under any obligation in this forum to post a Source at the end of my writtings to show the differing books and bible versions I have read and put together my arguements from. I do however try and mention that the following is a article or I will at times put the source after the quote in brackets (source). For your information not one single thing I used came from that website you found. I have NEVER seen it before in my life. I think you are just trying to use this as some sort of diverson so you can try and take the focus off of the subject.

As I read through your responses which I will go into more detail in another post I noticed that the majority of the time you really never answed the questions. Yes you would make some sort of statement but it wasnt an answer. I also noticed that you dropped the argument about the Psalms not being part of the law. I don't blame you since I completly destroyed that arguement. You also did not really even touch up on the Rev arguement. Again I dont blame you. Now that I think about it you did'nt really even touch upon the psallo arguement either.

Arguments from silence are logical fallacies. CoC states that musical instruments are prohibited because the NT does not speak of them

You said I misunderstood your 1 arguement but it is very clear as what you are saying. Maybe you need to re-read it again. This clearly states that the use of the silence of the scriptures is a logical falliacies. If this is true anything everthing that is not mentioned can be deemed ok to do. If this is not what you are saying you need to re-word and explain why it is ok include musical instruments based off the silence of scripture but not to include other things than are not specifically condemned in scripture.

Again, I do appreciate your effort in trying, but you have not even began to touch my arguements. God commanded musical instruments to be used in the old law. When the new law came he did not command them to be used. Do you not see how easy a concept this is. I showed you how the law was nailed to the cross and new law/covenant was put it its place. That is why we are not under the law of Moses because it no longer is binding on us today. If you can bring musical instruments from the old law into the new law then we should be able to bring anything we want from the Old law over to the new law. I will comment latter on the rest of your replies that you made.


Cougan
 
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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
You plagarize a lot, you know that? Your use of mechanical instruments was one clue, as it shifted from instrumental music. A quick search shows that the rest of your argument was taken mostly from ttp://members.cox.net/hpcoc/tracts/job117u.htm">http://members.cox.net/hpcoc/tracts/job117u.htm

Do a better job at referencing - otherwise you are stealing another person's words, which is, I believe, a sin, right?

And Veggie Tales is not copyrighted?  I must be mistaken about that.  I hope you will correct me.
 
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Sure seems like man spends a lot of time telling God what Heaven will and won't be, Don't forget Christ said what you bind on earth you bind in Heaven, certainly he is not talking of sinful things, they would not be in Heaven, so if anyone wishes to sit in silence verses singing a song of praise, I am happy for you, as for me all things "appropriately sing" hehehe....
My God is not some scowling grump who hates all things he makes. It is right to fear him as we overcome our sins in Christ, Is it right to deeply respect Him in all we are, But I don't see a Thou shalt not Jam in the 10 commandments, again appropriately so...hehehehe,

I have attended many churches, do enjoy many of the old hymns, have traveled a good bit worldwide, one of the most uplifting services I have ever seen is when my rockin Southern Gospel band played at a Black Church at a funeral... We played The Saints Go Marching in in doubletime, oh yea it rocked, the minister had the coffin on a table with wheels on each leg and spun the coffin in circles praising God that our Brother was no longer in this world, I have also played a funeral in Orlando several years back for a young man who drowned in a boating accident in Orlando area, tragic 19 years old, he was a rocker, had abiding faith and would declare and praise Christ to be His Savior at the drop of a hat , It was at a Southern Baptist Church, very strict discipline, I played two songs, one was Southern gospel , the other was progressive psychedelic with direct Christian lyrics, very powerful, the sound system I used shook the dust out of the rafters, and that place rocked very hard, there were tears flowing and young people being converted, one of the largest funerals ever seen at the church, many hundreds of young people. I had folks from 12 to 80 thanking me for playing, it had been a unique experience, and praised God..

Here is another experience, I was playing at a club in Southern Florida one night, as usual we mixed 1/4 original music with rock covers, in the original the lyrics were always based on Christ, and the music was somewhere in the vein of Jimi Hendrix meets PInk Floyd, well after the final set, this huge Biker with Pagans written on His jacket barked at me from His table by the stage, what the hell was that song about, I explained it was about the saving Love of Jesus, and that nothing else in this world compared to devotion to God, well I thought he was going to jump me or something, but instead he said, what do I have to do to know such love and mercy, I told him to accept Christ as Savior, develop a living relationship with Him and repent of sins, I watched this 300 lb man fall on His knees as his friends ridicule Him, tears flowing accept Christ. He later became a minister who works in the worst areas of town, the crack infested alleys, the destitute, the homeless. As His ministry grew amoung the people it soon became apparent that the larger , more formal churches weren't interested in having a bus drop off the homeless, the addicted, the prostitues, and the drunken off for church service. as it interfered with their sense of rightiousness, didn't want their kids seeing such things, after all would God want these rejects from society in His place of worship? So we started renting small buildings down in the area of town no one would walk at night, holding church, playing many styles of music, even let a few old drunks play the blues from time to time and praise God the best way they could.
Soon people from all over town were coming to the worship service, not judging each other, but having dinner(donated fish ussually), listening to speakers, you know regular folks, I'd see a coat and tie once in a while, they were welcomed too.
So which of these extremes best represents the ways of Christ to you?

No one will ever convince me that playing music for God is not part of using of talents for Him, I have seen the saving of many brothers and sisters through the unorthodox use of music..

So if being appropriate means men thinking what I do is Ok, I'll gladly stay in service to my Lord even when others say it is inappropriate. The world does not know him, that is why this world is so whacked....
 
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ScottEmerson

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Originally posted by cougan
Scott you accuse me of plagerism. This simply is not true. Now at times I put what I have read into my own words and at times paste article that have been written on the subject. I am not publishing what I am saying or quoting for sale in a book. I am not under any obligation in this forum to post a Source at the end of my writtings to show the differing books and bible versions I have read and put together my arguements from. I do however try and mention that the following is a article or I will at times put the source after the quote in brackets (source). For your information not one single thing I used came from that website you found. I have NEVER seen it before in my life. I think you are just trying to use this as some sort of diverson so you can try and take the focus off of the subject.

Look at the site and see how many of your phrases were ripped from the text. Maybe you and that page share a common source. Either way, you took it word for word from somewhere. Word for word. I do believe that even in forums such as this, there is a legal obligation to reference your sources.

I also noticed that you dropped the argument about the Psalms not being part of the law.

You didn't destroy it - it was 1:30 at night.

This clearly states that the use of the silence of the scriptures is a logical falliacies.

No, it's the argument that, "because the Scipture doesn't say it, it must be sinful." That is an argument from silence. It is a logical fallacy.

If this is true anything everthing that is not mentioned can be deemed ok to do.

And you have to prove that, which you have not done. You've made another fallacy - you have made an appeal to motive in place of support. You have to prove that my argument NECESSARILY leads to that. I have given you MANY instances of things which are not in Scripture, which we say are okay and we do every day. Things such as electricity, use of a computer, and so on.

If this is not what you are saying you need to re-word and explain why it is ok include musical instruments based off the silence of scripture but not to include other things than are not specifically condemned in scripture.

The burden of proof is not in my court - it is in yours, because of the rule of logic. 

God commanded musical instruments to be used in the old law. When the new law came he did not command them to be used.

And this is specifically what is known as an argument of silence. It is illogical.

Do you not see how easy a concept this is. I showed you how the law was nailed to the cross and new law/covenant was put it its place. That is why we are not under the law of Moses because it no longer is binding on us today. If you can bring musical instruments from the old law into the new law then we should be able to bring anything we want from the Old law over to the new law.

You assume that musical instruments are found ONLY in the Old Law, and that musical instruments are allowed ONLY because the Old Law says so. This simply is not true. It is still an argument from silence.

Here's a syllogism for you.

1. Paul says to use Psalms

2. Psalms includes uses of instruments

3. Therefore, Paul must agree that instruments may be used in worship.

I offer again the meaning of the Greek for Psalm: A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument.

 

Let us end with a picture of worship to the Almighty: Revelation 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God.

 

Quick question for you: (and choose your answer carefully) If there was evidence that the early church used instruments, would you believe that instruments are okay?
 
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ScottEmerson

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Keep playing your heart out Godiscool! I myself was moved to salvation during an Easter musical - "My Utmost for His Highest" - which was done with full choir and orchestra. It was during that time that the Holy Spirit beckoned me to lay down my pride and surrender my life to Him. By the grace of God, I chose to do so after years of running.

And for the rest of the musical, I really, really WORSHIPPED!
 
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ScottEmerson

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Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
The ideal remains as Paul desecribed it---interactive and participatory.  (When you come together, one has a scripture, another this another that, etc.)  A single person can lead or even sing to a congregation but when that singing becomes a (rehearsed) solo, we have shifted the ideal from interactive and participatory worship to a mixture of this ideal and the goal of entertaining.  (Failure to rehearse BTW is even worse.)  This subtle shift may be defensible if it did not inevitably erode interactive and participatory worship. 

What churches have you seen this? When we sing with the Praise Team (accompanied by worship), our goal is to worship vertically, and in doing so, proclaim the Name of Christ horizontally.  

As for your analogy to the preacher, maybe you should insist that even the preacher strive to perform less and engage the audience more.

And who is to say I don't?
 
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Originally posted by Godiscool
Don't forget Christ said what you bind on earth you bind in Heaven, . . .

I have attended many churches, do enjoy many of the old hymns, have traveled a good bit worldwide, one of the most uplifting services I have ever seen is when my rockin Southern Gospel band played at a Black Church at a funeral... We played The Saints Go Marching in in doubletime, oh yea it rocked, . . . psychedelic with direct Christian lyrics, very powerful, the sound system I used shook the dust out of the rafters, and that place rocked very hard, there were tears flowing and young people being converted, one of the largest funerals ever seen at the church, many hundreds of young people. I had folks from 12 to 80 thanking me for playing, it had been a unique experience, and praised God..

Here is another experience, [etc.]

No one will ever convince me that playing music for God is not part of using of talents for Him, I have seen the saving of many brothers and sisters through the unorthodox use of music..

So if being appropriate means men thinking what I do is Ok, I'll gladly stay in service to my Lord even when others say it is inappropriate. The world does not know him, that is why this world is so whacked....

As long as the basis for what is right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate rests on your experience, we have no basis for discussion. You may also want to distance yourself from what is a logical conclusion based upon your statement above, to wit, that not only can we determine what is right or wrong based on personal experience but we can also bind our conclusions on heaven.

If no one can convince you to change your mind, then there is also no point in discussing your position but I thank you for it. I enjoyed reading your experiences and feel that you have made some good points.
 
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Originally posted by ScottEmerson

When we sing with the Praise Team (accompanied by worship), our goal is to worship vertically, and in doing so, proclaim the Name of Christ horizontally.  

When I last attended a praise team worship, my seven year old shushed me for singing along. The music minister of that team candidly admitted that congregant participation has steadily and dramatically declined since they began the team worship. Seems to me musical clergies are just interfering with the vertical praise of those in the pews.

My daughter's reaction should be telling on what you can expect from 50 more years of praise teams---the same thing that occurred 50 years after the introduction of organs in the churches of Europe.
 
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Dude, take a chill break.... you assume very much , you assume by saying in my experience that I don't have any knowledge of Biblical principles, ahnnnnnn...wrong... You assume you understand what God wants man to be and I am not it, ahnnnn....wrong again(although far from perfect, I know I have a message for you), I am pleased you have enjoyed some of my post, and as far as having nothing to discuss,  that's Ok if you have nothing to say, it wouldn't surprise me, I know I am supposed to quiver and need the wisdom of men, yea right...but I really don't care if you reject the things I have told you,I only fear and serve Christ, it must not be for you... you seek you're way I 'll go mine and in the next world we will see the truth. Now that you know I don't care if you accept me or not(wasn't Christ like that, a little bold....)I mean he didn't shrink up and hide when confronted, neither do I... we can only dream of having the nerve of John the Baptist and Jesus!!!
ready to Rock?  Or are the caves calling you to hide in... I'm sure if you stick with man's line you'll have many followers.. Let The Dead bury the dead!!

As far as going by my experience, yep I sure do, My experience is based on a walk with God through Christ, In my experience which is really all any of us has, whether it is gained through reading scriptures(which I have and do from time to time) or walking the path with God's hand in yours , it is still your experience...now that didn't hurt much did it...The kind of babble you just spilled is what plain folks understand as a con and fake as a three dollar bill, yea shaking smoke at a picture doesn't impress the one who speaks worlds into being.. Next they will be telling you to throw out what you know inside for what they tell you, because they are learned...give me a break, a rock can learn more in an instance if God wills without ever reading anything... The point is a relationship with God, and this  really frost em, God doesn't need a government, money, churches, armies, farms, ministers,or life in this world to create Heaven. Spreading the word of Christ is not getting enough of your money to get a radio station for the ministry, or a news bulletin, it is simply spreading the word of salvation, man to man, woman to woman, living it the best you can everyday and giving the love he has given you. You only need Christ and the only laws you have to worry about are the ten commandments..Man thinks, God needs him to do His work..wrong, we need God to do ours...


So many folks have lost their way in their walk with Christ because of such formalities, now you've got man telling you about how to properly worship, man that is so fake, the world I see you're hands wrapped around with pride is plastic, and literally dead, but oh yea you understand what is accepted worship, just look at the fruit, where did Christ say, ignore the downtrodden, lift yourselves up, and put yourself on a pedestal, act like you're good before he who is Holy. You know that is the idea and attitude that crucified Christ. Sure it occurred as to God's will, but the ones who really hated him, had studied scripture all their lives, just never were really interested in anything except putting on a show of rightiousness and keeping their power in society.

The way of Christ is a living relationship with a living God, do you really believe the church represents that today , I don't.... There are a few churches that base their belief on the love of Christ but I think most would rather sweep him under the rug, I mean he doesn't care about tomorrow(you know that's for losers) love God in all because you can't hate your brother and love God( but he drinks and lives in the wilderness, how uncouth?), the verticle and horizontal aspects of praise means nothing to anyone but some old stuffed BS the world has been feeding itself to ignore the reality of rot living within, you want to worship God, do it, don't worry about the minister, he ain't got a clue if he doesn't see the truth of your sincerity. If you want to scream God's name in the middle of the sermon, go ahead, men can't stop you, kicked out , big deal, its not like you're being kicked out of God's Kingdom just their little building, heck it might awaken their soul to true love.
What's next? Babylon the harlot is God's chosen? I mean they have the gold and therefore must be right, Get a clue...



There is not one man on earth who knows God, you can read the Bible a million times, if one doesn't seek God's way in their heart it is just words on paper, after all God wrote it, I'll tell you what, I believe in my God, the Father of Jesus, you read the Bible for info and I'll ask God, we'll see who gets the right interpretation. Christ didn't tell anyone to seek the wisdom of the elders, I enjoy listening to them, and some advice i take , other I think is actual stupidity in relation to Christ teachings, who here is willing to leave all with nothing in your pockets and serve God, remember that is what Christ told His disciples, how does that compare to the church of today? Remember when Christ said, you search the scriptures thinking that within them you will find life, yet you refuse to come to me to have it? I do not hate the churches, I grew up Methodist in the Yorktown Virginia area, It was a great beginning, I loved to read the Bible and hear about Jesus, somewhere along the line it seems the sermons stopped discussion the supernatural teachings of Christ (i mean That stuff is far out, you know teachings like, Why do you hate me for saying I am the son of God when you're scriptures tell you you are gods.)and turned into how good man is,You know the thoughts like.. Christ really didn't mean what he said, I mean that is not practical today and he only wants good for me so I guess those things are just not put into proper context, you know the time line studies will straighten all that out... Just asked the learned ones.. BS
well folks not to brag let me first say, before him who creates world I am not worthy to tie his shoes...

But in my youth, I left the elite world of who's who in academics, I could have gone to MIT, or any other university. Headed for the fast track, some of the highest college scores in the country, was in line for the best financial life possible..
God touched my heart through several "experiences" which I will not elaborate on, but let it suffice us to say, they were in the realm of visions, and many supernatural occurances that most would never believe did manifest themselves as simply as a spring rain...
I walked the path of total trust and dedication to him, in the path of Christ's disciples, I carried nothing and spoke with all I could hitch hiking along the East Coast for several years until God told me to seek a different path. I was kicked out of many churches for the message I brought( oh the glory!!!!) to suffer for Him... I watched God's fire consume many and turn their hearts to Him.. I can still remember the look on folks faces when they would ask me after picking me up where are you going and I would answer, "here". I'd tell them God has brought me to you so that I could share the living word.. In this I found my spiritual legs, a place of balance, man worries so much about things that can't help his soul, it is much more important to seek God with all your being than to fit in to the norm...I am again not worthy of anything and am a fool before my God,
but you that like to talk the talk, ready to walk the walk?

I've heard a glimpse of Heaven's music in one experience,(no drugs) I heard a trumpet sound while praying one day, I then heard all things begin to sing, one cell then another, as the melodies intertwined it began to form a voice in a song... the power, the glory is beyond comprehension, literally world's singing different parts in the song God orchestrates while leading the realm in song, enough to make your soul beg for it never to stop. This is the music of God, infinite, powerful, beautiful, and Holy!!!! There I have layed it out like a rock burning in the sun, I am used to criticism, it is ok, you can write me off as too far out there, that is ok too, I know now you may not consider me your friend, but in the next world you will be my friend should you seek Christ, for I had the willingness to give you the truth in the face of rejection, I think that is what a friend would do...I have fulfilled my promise to God before you that no blood will be on my hands...I do not bind music on Earth or Heaven that praises Him in any style..

Man Don't Know a Thing, seek Christ, share that with others with any talent you have...

Excuse my irreverance for man, nothing personal, we all have learning to do...It's just the truth, be not afraid.

Peace to all in our risen and omnipotent living God.....

 :cool:

 
 
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ScottEmerson

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Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
When I last attended a praise team worship, my seven year old shushed me for singing along. The music minister of that team candidly admitted that congregant participation has steadily and dramatically declined since they began the team worship. Seems to me musical clergies are just interfering with the vertical praise of those in the pews.


So one case makes the rule? Come to my church - FBC, Ocala. Check out Bellvue Baptist in Memphis. Second Baptist Dallas. Northpoint Community. Literally hundreds of churches are turning to praise teams to enhance praise - and it works. Look around, Flavius. And no one will tell you to "hush" if you want to sing along.

My daughter's reaction should be telling on what you can expect from 50 more years of praise teams---the same thing that occurred 50 years after the introduction of organs in the churches of Europe.

There have been records of organs in churches in Europe as early as 1307. So you have evidence of what happened from then until 1357? Or is that hyperbole?
 
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Many people worship God through music. I sing in the choir at church, and I sing with all my heart. I feel as if I were called by God to sing, and I really do consider all kinds of music to be one way of worshipping Him... When you're trying to draw people into the church, good music will often keep people coming. So many of the people that attend the same service as I have let me know that they attend that particular service because of the music!
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
This is not what I said. I said that if the Bible is silent concerning an issue, then we cannot give a blanket condemnation. Nowhere does it say that we are to use the restroom on a regular basis, but we assume that it is okay. There are thousands and thousands of things that we do regularly that are not in the Bible. I most certain am not saying that if the Bible is silent then it is okay to do it. If you are still confused, then re-read the argument. 


. Which of the following practices, if any, would you oppose if offered by Christians as worship to God?

    (a) Burning incense
Not sure why anyone would do this, but if they are led by the Spirit to do so, I am in no position to deny them.

Well at least you are staying consistant with your arguement. Either you just dont want to see the truth are you are truely wrapped up in your theolgy. You are saying here that if someone is led by the Spirit to do something than its ok. Do you believe that someone can worship God in away that is different than what the word of God says they can worship as long as the spirit led them? How does the spirit lead them? Does the HS talk to you or is it some sort of thoght that pops into your head and you say the HS is telling me to do this?

Rosary beads are not used for worship - they are used for another purpose. However, if a person wants to use something similar to rosary beads to remember different aspects of God to worship, I am in no position to deny them that.

Now wait a min what is your justification for limiting ROsary beads.? The bible does not say that you CAN'T use them. Why do they have to use something similiar? You ONLY want to allow those things you accept by the silence of scriptures but you draw you own lines here and destroy your own arguement.

There are several instances in the BIble of people dancing before the LORD. If they choose to do that, and are led by God to do so, then I am in no position to deny that.

There is not to the best of memory of any examples of someone dancing in worship under the new convenant. Not only is dancing and the other things here not authorized dont you think that dancing would violate the following scripture.

Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Someone jumping up and dancing down the ailes sure doesnt fall under decently and in order. I also find strange that the apostles tells us to follow their example yet they did not use musical instruments to worship with.




 (d) Handling snakes as a token of worship


Mark 16:18 talks about that. I don't take it as being in the original manuscipt. Since you do, that's your verse to comprehend.

How convenient!

(e) Using meat and potatoes on the Lord's table

Let's see... is there a specific prohibition? I Corinthians 11:33 seems to indicate that people eat a meal at the Lord's supper. Personally, I don't do it, but if other people do being led by God to do so, then I am in on position to deny them that.

Jesus institued the LS with the fruit of the vine representing his blood and the new convenant. The unleavend bread represents his body and we are to partake of it until he comes because it also proclaims his death. This is quite sad Scott that you are willing to say that the fruit of the vine and the unlevend bread can be replaced using meat and potatoes. I will take Jesus at his word and use the fruit of the vine and the unleaven bread. To do other wize is to say well Jesus I know you used the fruit of the vine and unleaven bread but hey you didnt say I COULDNT use water frence fries so I am going to do my OWN thing. This is illogical and cant belive you would hold to such interpations.

 

. If you would oppose any of the foregoing items, please state on what Scriptural basis you would do so.

See above.

You did'nt answer the question here or above.



Again, see my first paragraph. This is not according to my view - you are constructing a slippery slope argument.

Im sorry but you 1st statement still hasnt changed its meaning. I wonder if one of the other poster on here would read you 1st statement and see if they come to a different conclusion.

So is using electricity? How about chewing gum? How about any of the modern things we use on a daily basis, including a computer? This statement is so narrow, it is almost humourous!

Again please re-read my post on what is "aid" and what is a "addition"


To clarify your position  to me and the others  reading  this please answer the following  questions. 

  1. Please indicate whether each of the following statements is true or false:

    (a) Worship must be offered to God as authorized by Divine truth.  True or false?
Worship is compelled by a Holy God. Without God's guidance, we cannot initiate true worship. If the LORD instructs me to worship using an instrument, I must offer it to Him as a gift to him.

You didnt answer the question. Maybe you did'nt understand the question. Must worship be offered to God as AUTHORIZED by the bible/word of God? If you are implying from you above statement that one can led by God in addition to the word than you are adding to the word of God. You need to start writting your revelation you can call it the book fo Scott "what God wants us to do in worship today".


To clarify your position  to me and the others  reading  this please answer the following  questions. 

  1. Please indicate whether each of the following statements is true or false:

    (a) Worship must be offered to God as authorized by Divine truth.  True or false?

I do not think that my singing AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" is pleasing to God. I do not think that would be commanded as worship.

Now make up your mind Scott because you yourself stated that if the HS led you to do it then its ok. You just cant seem to make up your mind.


(c) It is possible for there to exist in our day such a thing as vain worship.  True or false?
Yes, just as it existed in Paul's time. The book of I Corinthians is loaded with such examples.

Very good we acutually agree on something.

2. Are there any restrictions on what a New Testament Christian may offer as worship to God?  If so, please state what they are and how they may be determined.
We are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We are to sacrifice self in our worship. Hymns, confessions of faith, doxologies, sermons, Scripture readings, symbols, and benedictions should all grown out of God's ultimated revelation in Christ. Types of music are not restricted.

Once again you did'nt answer the questions. I did not ask you to list what you feel not to be a restiction but what you do see as a restriction and why.
 
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There were musical instruments in OT days, and there are musical instruments in Heaven. The God of the OT and the God of Heaven is the same God in NT days. It is silly to think that God would suddenly not approve of using musical instruments in worship to Him. It is also adding something to the scriptures that is not there. God has never forbidden the use of musical instruments in worship, and God never changes. The same yesterday, today, and forever. We are commanded to love God and love each other, and the playing of musical instruments in worship is an expression of our love for God.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Godiscool
Dude, take a chill break.... you assume very much , you assume by saying in my experience that I don't have any knowledge of Biblical principles, ahnnnnnn...wrong... You assume you understand what God wants man to be and I am not it, ahnnnn....wrong again(although far from perfect, I know I have a message for you), I am pleased you have enjoyed some of my post, and as far as having nothing to discuss,  that's Ok if you have nothing to say, it wouldn't surprise me, I know I am supposed to quiver and need the wisdom of men, yea right...but I really don't care if you reject the things I have told you,I only fear and serve Christ, it must not be for you... you seek you're way I 'll go mine and in the next world we will see the truth. Now that you know I don't care if you accept me or not(wasn't Christ like that, a little bold....)I mean he didn't shrink up and hide when confronted, neither do I... we can only dream of having the nerve of John the Baptist and Jesus!!!
ready to Rock?  Or are the caves calling you to hide in... I'm sure if you stick with man's line you'll have many followers.. Let The Dead bury the dead!!

As far as going by my experience, yep I sure do, My experience is based on a walk with God through Christ, In my experience which is really all any of us has, whether it is gained through reading scriptures(which I have and do from time to time) or walking the path with God's hand in yours , it is still your experience...now that didn't hurt much did it...The kind of babble you just spilled is what plain folks understand as a con and fake as a three dollar bill, yea shaking smoke at a picture doesn't impress the one who speaks worlds into being.. Next they will be telling you to throw out what you know inside for what they tell you, because they are learned...give me a break, a rock can learn more in an instance if God wills without ever reading anything... The point is a relationship with God, and this  really frost em, God doesn't need a government, money, churches, armies, farms, ministers,or life in this world to create Heaven. Spreading the word of Christ is not getting enough of your money to get a radio station for the ministry, or a news bulletin, it is simply spreading the word of salvation, man to man, woman to woman, living it the best you can everyday and giving the love he has given you. You only need Christ and the only laws you have to worry about are the ten commandments..Man thinks, God needs him to do His work..wrong, we need God to do ours...


So many folks have lost their way in their walk with Christ because of such formalities, now you've got man telling you about how to properly worship, man that is so fake, the world I see you're hands wrapped around with pride is plastic, and literally dead, but oh yea you understand what is accepted worship, just look at the fruit, where did Christ say, ignore the downtrodden, lift yourselves up, and put yourself on a pedestal, act like you're good before he who is Holy. You know that is the idea and attitude that crucified Christ. Sure it occurred as to God's will, but the ones who really hated him, had studied scripture all their lives, just never were really interested in anything except putting on a show of rightiousness and keeping their power in society.

The way of Christ is a living relationship with a living God, do you really believe the church represents that today , I don't.... There are a few churches that base their belief on the love of Christ but I think most would rather sweep him under the rug, I mean he doesn't care about tomorrow(you know that's for losers) love God in all because you can't hate your brother and love God( but he drinks and lives in the wilderness, how uncouth?), the verticle and horizontal aspects of praise means nothing to anyone but some old stuffed BS the world has been feeding itself to ignore the reality of rot living within, you want to worship God, do it, don't worry about the minister, he ain't got a clue if he doesn't see the truth of your sincerity. If you want to scream God's name in the middle of the sermon, go ahead, men can't stop you, kicked out , big deal, its not like you're being kicked out of God's Kingdom just their little building, heck it might awaken their soul to true love.
What's next? Babylon the harlot is God's chosen? I mean they have the gold and therefore must be right, Get a clue...



There is not one man on earth who knows God, you can read the Bible a million times, if one doesn't seek God's way in their heart it is just words on paper, after all God wrote it, I'll tell you what, I believe in my God, the Father of Jesus, you read the Bible for info and I'll ask God, we'll see who gets the right interpretation. Christ didn't tell anyone to seek the wisdom of the elders, I enjoy listening to them, and some advice i take , other I think is actual stupidity in relation to Christ teachings, who here is willing to leave all with nothing in your pockets and serve God, remember that is what Christ told His disciples, how does that compare to the church of today? Remember when Christ said, you search the scriptures thinking that within them you will find life, yet you refuse to come to me to have it? I do not hate the churches, I grew up Methodist in the Yorktown Virginia area, It was a great beginning, I loved to read the Bible and hear about Jesus, somewhere along the line it seems the sermons stopped discussion the supernatural teachings of Christ (i mean That stuff is far out, you know teachings like, Why do you hate me for saying I am the son of God when you're scriptures tell you you are gods.)and turned into how good man is,You know the thoughts like.. Christ really didn't mean what he said, I mean that is not practical today and he only wants good for me so I guess those things are just not put into proper context, you know the time line studies will straighten all that out... Just asked the learned ones.. BS
well folks not to brag let me first say, before him who creates world I am not worthy to tie his shoes...

But in my youth, I left the elite world of who's who in academics, I could have gone to MIT, or any other university. Headed for the fast track, some of the highest college scores in the country, was in line for the best financial life possible..
God touched my heart through several "experiences" which I will not elaborate on, but let it suffice us to say, they were in the realm of visions, and many supernatural occurances that most would never believe did manifest themselves as simply as a spring rain...
I walked the path of total trust and dedication to him, in the path of Christ's disciples, I carried nothing and spoke with all I could hitch hiking along the East Coast for several years until God told me to seek a different path. I was kicked out of many churches for the message I brought( oh the glory!!!!) to suffer for Him... I watched God's fire consume many and turn their hearts to Him.. I can still remember the look on folks faces when they would ask me after picking me up where are you going and I would answer, "here". I'd tell them God has brought me to you so that I could share the living word.. In this I found my spiritual legs, a place of balance, man worries so much about things that can't help his soul, it is much more important to seek God with all your being than to fit in to the norm...I am again not worthy of anything and am a fool before my God,
but you that like to talk the talk, ready to walk the walk?

I've heard a glimpse of Heaven's music in one experience,(no drugs) I heard a trumpet sound while praying one day, I then heard all things begin to sing, one cell then another, as the melodies intertwined it began to form a voice in a song... the power, the glory is beyond comprehension, literally world's singing different parts in the song God orchestrates while leading the realm in song, enough to make your soul beg for it never to stop. This is the music of God, infinite, powerful, beautiful, and Holy!!!! There I have layed it out like a rock burning in the sun, I am used to criticism, it is ok, you can write me off as too far out there, that is ok too, I know now you may not consider me your friend, but in the next world you will be my friend should you seek Christ, for I had the willingness to give you the truth in the face of rejection, I think that is what a friend would do...I have fulfilled my promise to God before you that no blood will be on my hands...I do not bind music on Earth or Heaven that praises Him in any style..

Man Don't Know a Thing, seek Christ, share that with others with any talent you have...

Excuse my irreverance for man, nothing personal, we all have learning to do...It's just the truth, be not afraid.

Peace to all in our risen and omnipotent living God.....

 :cool:

 

Thanks for sharing your life story, but what does have to do with this debate? You experiences and what you have done does not change the word of God. You say that we can not know God but consisder the following verse.

John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

We can know God we just dont know everything there is to know.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable <I>are </I>his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

You mentioned in a previous post that man is always trying to tell God what heaven is like. I do not do that and I have no clue what heaven will be like except for glimplse we have been given by the word of God. I would never attempt to tell God anything I am just procaliming his word and trying to show from SCRIPTURE that mechanical instruments are not authorized under the new convenant.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Auntie
There were musical instruments in OT days, and there are musical instruments in Heaven. The God of the OT and the God of Heaven is the same God in NT days. It is silly to think that God would suddenly not approve of using musical instruments in worship to Him. It is also adding something to the scriptures that is not there. God has never forbidden the use of musical instruments in worship, and God never changes. The same yesterday, today, and forever. We are commanded to love God and love each other, and the playing of musical instruments in worship is an expression of our love for God.

Auntie you never read my arguements I made or you wouldnt post this. I agree there were musical instruments in the OT in fact they were commanded by God. 2Ch 29:25. Dont you think that if God wanted us to use musical insturments today to worship him that he would of commanded it in the NT? All you find in the Nt is examples of them singing praises unto God without the musical instrument. When you look at the history of the church is was not used in the early chruch.

Autie please read my arguement on the old law vrs the new law. If you can bring musical instruments from the old law then you can bring anything and everthing from the Old law. Yes Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever he doesnt change but the the commandments that we are to follow have. So dont try to use this pharse to indicate that convenants or his commadments do not change or you better start sacrificing animals and start keeping the sabbath.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by LightHearted
Many people worship God through music. I sing in the choir at church, and I sing with all my heart. I feel as if I were called by God to sing, and I really do consider all kinds of music to be one way of worshipping Him... When you're trying to draw people into the church, good music will often keep people coming. So many of the people that attend the same service as I have let me know that they attend that particular service because of the music!

Please dont get me wrong I know that you are probably very sincere in what you do and may have a great zeal for God but just because many people do something does not make it right. I feel as if I were called is a common expression but this is just your own emotions in my opinion. So many people today seem to think if the feel really strong about something that it must be Lord calling them. This is quite different concept in the 1century. When the HS wanted someone to do something he told them that is spoke&nbsp;to them and there was not doubting this. I belive that we today are called by his gospel.

Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is true that you can draw people and keep them comming if the music is good becuase they want to be entertained. Take away the musical instruments and watch your church fall apart. A majorty of them would leave when you stopped entertaining them. If a person goes to church because of the Good Music from the instruements their going for the wrong reasons. I know of several things that would draw the crowds if I started a church and used lewd things and acts to draw them in and cause them to accept christ because they love this kind of worship. Does it make it right? Absolutely not. To obtain numbers with using things in worship that is not authorized is in my opinon is a sin. I plead with you to get back to the bible and study it for yourself. Dont accept practices just because everyone is doing it or because your preacher says it ok. Now if you find that I am wrong and that I am missing something please show me from scripture where my misunderstanding is because I want to know. I am not to pridefull to change my view if I find what I teach to be wrong. I only want to teach the truth and be pleasing unto God.

Cougan
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by cougan
Auntie you never read my arguements I made or you wouldnt post this.


I don't make posts based on your posts cougan!:D

Dont you think that if God wanted us to use musical insturments today to worship him that he would of commanded it in the NT?


Cougan, the point is, we were never commanded NOT to! Don't you think that if God DIDN'T want us to use musical instruments today to worship him that he would have commanded us NOT to!!!!!!!!!


All you find in the Nt is examples of them singing praises unto God without the musical instrument. When you look at the history of the church is was not used in the early chruch.


That doesn't mean that they didn't use them, cougan!! You're ASSUMING things, and adding commandments that don't exist!! IF it had been an important issue, it would have been delt with in the NT. We would have received warning after warning to not use musical instruments!! You're clinging to the commandments of men!!


Autie please read my arguement on the old law vrs the new law. If you can bring musical instruments from the old law then you can bring anything and everthing from the Old law. Yes Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever he doesnt change but the the commandments that we are to follow have. So dont try to use this pharse to indicate that convenants or his commadments do not change or you better start sacrificing animals and start keeping the sabbath.

This issue has nothing to do with the LAW, cougan!! Jesus freed us from the LAW!! We are no longer in bondage to the LAW, cougan!! Get your heart on LOVE, not the LAW!! If someone worships God with musical intruments, it is because of LOVE for God, and NOT because we are STRIVING to keep a LAW!!

Let me say this cougan, if everything you do is motivated out of "commandment keeping", then you have MISSED the whole gospel!! Your faith is no different than that of the Jews!! Jesus is MUCH MUCH MORE than simply going from one set of rules to another set of rules!! If that were the case, we would have no need for a new covenant!! You make the old covenant sound like a better covenant!! God forbid!! Were the Jews free to worship God with musical instruments, and we are not???? God forbid that you should even say such a thing!! You would put the Christian in BONDAGE to a LAW that doen't exist??? God forbid!!

This would be a silly issue, except for the fact that some Christians have been brainwashed into believing things that are NOT of God, and they live in bondage because of it!!

Cougan, if you choose to worship without musical instruments, then that's fine!:) No problem! I wouldn't want you to worship in a way that you think is sinful. But regardless of what you have been taught, it is NOT a sin, except that you BELIEVE it is sin.
 
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