Musical Instruments in Worship

ScottEmerson

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Originally posted by cougan
Well at least you are staying consistant with your arguement. Either you just dont want to see the truth are you are truely wrapped up in your theolgy. You are saying here that if someone is led by the Spirit to do something than its ok.


If they are TRULY led by the Spirit, then it is, indeed okay. If it is what God the Spirit wants, then I am not going to disagree!

 Do you believe that someone can worship God in away that is different than what the word of God says they can worship as long as the spirit led them? How does the spirit lead them? Does the HS talk to you or is it some sort of thoght that pops into your head and you say the HS is telling me to do this?

Oh, he speaks. This may be hard from someone who does not believe that HOly Spirit indwells the believer. The Holy Spirit is a still small voice that - it's hard to approximate - "whispers," for lack of a better word. He speaks to me in prayer, he speaks to me in worship, and he directs me often in which way to go.

Now wait a min what is your justification for limiting ROsary beads.?

The limitation was based upon their role in the Catholic Church. They are a prayer aid - not a worship aid as instructed by the Church.

The bible does not say that you CAN'T use them. Why do they have to use something similiar? You ONLY want to allow those things you accept by the silence of scriptures but you draw you own lines here and destroy your own arguement.

You were too quick to jump to that conclusion. 

There is not to the best of memory of any examples of someone dancing in worship under the new convenant. Not only is dancing and the other things here not authorized dont you think that dancing would violate the following scripture.

David danced before the Lord. Since worship is never re-defined in the NT from the OT (the passages referring to worship never specifically redefine it), we must assume that the most Sovereign Lord wishes us to worship to Him likewise.

Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

You're misapplying this text. It's specificalyl referring to the speaking and interpretation of tongues. Dancing is not mentioned or implied.

Someone jumping up and dancing down the ailes sure doesnt fall under decently and in order.

Dancing doesn't even fall under the umbrella of the Scripture you posted. Paul is talking about tongues. Read the chapter to see.  

I also find strange that the apostles tells us to follow their example yet they did not use musical instruments to worship with.

No, they do not specifally state that they did or did not use musical isntruments. That's very different than what you wrote.

How convenient!

It's your Scripture to deal with, since I, and the majority of scholars, believe that the last part of Mark 16 was not authentic to the original manuscript. 

Jesus institued the LS with the fruit of the vine representing his blood and the new convenant. The unleavend bread represents his body and we are to partake of it until he comes because it also proclaims his death. This is quite sad Scott that you are willing to say that the fruit of the vine and the unlevend bread can be replaced using meat and potatoes. I will take Jesus at his word and use the fruit of the vine and the unleaven bread. To do other wize is to say well Jesus I know you used the fruit of the vine and unleaven bread but hey you didnt say I COULDNT use water frence fries so I am going to do my OWN thing. This is illogical and cant belive you would hold to such interpations.

No. We use the bread and the wine. I was saying that meat and potatoes can be eaten as part of the supper - the bread and the wine are the part that specificalyl commemorates the death of Christ. Chill. 

You did'nt answer the question here or above.

Oh, I anwered them. Not how you would have liked, I imagine - but I did answer them.

Im sorry but you 1st statement still hasnt changed its meaning. I wonder if one of the other poster on here would read you 1st statement and see if they come to a different conclusion.

I said that if the Bible is silent concerning an issue, then we cannot give a blanket condemnation.

This was my original statement. I imagine that the other posters would come to the same conclusion I did. God gave us sense for a reason. (Hence, the adjective "blanket.")

Again please re-read my post on what is "aid" and what is a "addition"

I have. Why can musical instruments not be an "aid?" You cannot (or have not yet) really answered that. 

You didnt answer the question. Maybe you did'nt understand the question. Must worship be offered to God as AUTHORIZED by the bible/word of God?

Worship must be authorized by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not lead a man to do something outside of the Word, but the authorization is given by God himself.

 If you are implying from you above statement that one can led by God in addition to the word than you are adding to the word of God. You need to start writting your revelation you can call it the book fo Scott "what God wants us to do in worship today".

You need to understand what "adding to the word of God means." I'm not writing a text. Just because a person receives a revelation does not mean they are writing a new text.

Now make up your mind Scott because you yourself stated that if the HS led you to do it then its ok. You just cant seem to make up your mind.

Again, if the Holy Spirit truly instructs a person to do it, it will NOT go against Biblical truths. You want the crux of my argument - that is it.

Once again you did'nt answer the questions. I did not ask you to list what you feel not to be a restiction but what you do see as a restriction and why.

The Holy Spirit must authorize and lead a person to worship. If the Holy Spirit does not do it, then it is not authentic worship. How's that for a restriction?

 

 
 
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ScottEmerson

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And a question regarding aids for worship for cougan:

(from David Martin's website...)

If the "Church of Christ" claims to worship God only as "authorized" by scripture because they sing only (and do not use instrumental music), then where do they get the "authority" to use hymnals, pitchpipes, pews, and indoor baptistries in their worship services? If the answer is that they are "aids to worship," where does the Bible allow for that? Where is your required authorization? If a pitchpipe can be an "aid to worship" for the song service in the "Church of Christ," then why can't a piano be an "aid to worship" for Baptists who may need more help in singing?
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
And a question regarding aids for worship for cougan:

(from David Martin's website...)

If the "Church of Christ" claims to worship God only as "authorized" by scripture because they sing only (and do not use instrumental music), then where do they get the "authority" to use hymnals, pitchpipes, pews, and indoor baptistries in their worship services? If the answer is that they are "aids to worship," where does the Bible allow for that? Where is your required authorization? If a pitchpipe can be an "aid to worship" for the song service in the "Church of Christ," then why can't a piano be an "aid to worship" for Baptists who may need more help in singing?


Good questions, Scott!:) The simple answer is, the CoC allows for "aids" because their false doctrines had them painting theirselves into a corner. Of course, only the CoC is authorized to define "what is an aid, and what is NOT an aid". The Baptists have no authority in this area!:D

I remember the first time my CoC used a pitchpipe, everyone gasped!!! Yikes!! A note of music coming from an instrument!! Aaarrgh!!:D
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Cammie
Please keep in mind that not ALL CoCs are non-instrumental. We use instruments, and clap our hands to glorify and worship God...and we're Coc...


Sorry, Cammie. I keep forgetting that not all CoC's teach the same thing. But I am curious, what is the history of your CoC? Did it originate from the Campbell Movement in the 1800's? The one that supposedly "restored" the New Testament Church?
 
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Auntie, I like your style , Cougar, no where near my life story, but a few places I have been, I never said man could never know God, I said you cannot find all aspects of God in the Bible, it is a beginning place. You are correct that there is always more to learn, but that in no way states that man can't know God, but I have never met anyone who did. I've met plenty of seekers who have ideas about him and in their humility began to see. I see all Christians in this ball park. I don't think Moses, or Abraham knew God , only Christ.There comes a point in anyones relationship with the Lord that you trust in what you pray, and believe you will be guided to truth, no man has all the answers and that absolutely includes me. I simply believe the Lord of the universe is very capable of making points clearly, Again there is no other law but the ten commandments, everything else is man's way of acting good while oppresiing others to their picture of God's divinity. What one church group may say is worth hearing but know that they do not represent Him. I think mankind has lost the point, it is not in how reverent others believe we are or should be, it is how God perceives us as we awaken to Him. Does the Bible describe God's favorite pastimes, His favorite animals and plants, what he did before this creation, does he have a wife? See, only someone who really has been there with God and has loved Him personally could know these things. Similarly, Music and styles and if Heaven has music and if God likes music are all questions that can only be answered in a living relationship with the Almighty, Auntie said it well, you worship as you see fit, as for me my morning rises in a psychedelic splendor, the colors of dawn and the joy of the birds voices tell me the truth, that my God is Holy and does not judge me on such petty things. I am sure that if we consider many of the mainstream churches positions about music like I gladly produce worldwide as being what God thinks I am sure your point of view comes to light easily, the only problem is, you have no proof it is what God thinks.  My music is very strong, rocks hard, and directly proclaims Christ as Savior. It will never play in most churches, that's ok, I am seeking another audience. This is what Christ meant about what you bind on earth you bind in Heaven. It is not about binding sins, God does not allow sin in Heaven. This is also why the ten commandments speak of not worrying about what your neighbor has. Because we are all called to a level of rightiousness we can understand. And because I might have a rock band in Heaven to God's glory doesn't make me bad, God doesn't allow bad in Heaven. In fact, I would be eternally honored to play in God's band, and rock the Heaven's!!! I expect many consider these words as foolishness, each to their own, but I do ask all to seek God themselves through Christ, if not you really may miss out on what he wants to give you.

This is evident when you ask folks what do they think Heaven will be like, some describe a beautiful planet full of love, some see an astral plane of deep meditation without bodies as we know them, changes in the twinkling of an eye, and others are afraid to say because they know that whatever God has in mind for them is higher than they can ever conceive.

God will include your talents and dreams to form Heaven so that all peoples are fulfilled, be not afraid of falling, be afraid of never seeking the living path... to a living relationship, with a living God who does not need anyones government or Church... All need Him...

I know that the things I have said worldwide are very controversial, I don't do it for money, I give my music away freely. In fact last week I was offered a substantial sum of money by an elderly lady who was touched by the things I say and wanted to promote my ministry before she dies, she is 81 and has cancer, she said after praying deeply she recognised the teachings of Christ in a way she had never considered in these discussions. Most churches and ministries would have accepted the money as a way to furthur their ministry, but I know God doesn't need it to promote His way, mouth to mouth, ear to ear does his spirit flow, as all do resonate with his inner will whether they hear it or not.

So I had her give it all to a homeless food bank, and food outreaches in India, and the USA, I told her to allow none for management of the funds, all to be given one day at a time to the needy, this would be a greater fulfillment in Heaven for her.. She told me that she had never met anyone with that kind of faith. What Glory God does give those who seek!!! Holy is His name!!

I know this is slightly of course in some folks eyes to the discussion, but all melts together in the ocean of God's way. I just want others to experience one aspect of the walk I have been blessed to have.. May the music of your heart play before the throne.

This is some words to a rockabilly song that has been getting a some airplay in Europe and Australia. I play many styles and instruments.

Well I was praying Lord won't you help me write a song, That Heaven and Earth could sing along, so won't you tell me what you like, what is your style, I need something that will make God smile.

So I searched my heart for the clues, to the kind of music that would please you, and as Heaven sang, a harmonic background thing, I heard the Holy spirit say,

When angels moved His rock he rolled, when he creates worlds he's got country in His soul, earth is his footstool and he wants to tap His toes, to the sound of Joyful Worship pole to pole..

Make a joyful noise unto your Father folks, he wants to see you happy even in this darkness. It is a sign to Him you believe that Christ will take you home for real..

Oh God, another life story, hehehehe :bow: :cool:
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Auntie


I don't make posts based on your posts cougan!:D

[/b]

Fair enough

Cougan, the point is, we were never commanded NOT to! Don't you think that if God DIDN'T want us to use musical instruments today to worship him that he would have commanded us NOT to!!!!!!!!!

[/b]

Oh but he did tell us how to worship him and it was by making melody in your heart, to sing that is to teach and admonish things that an mechanical instrument cant do. col 3:16 Eph 5:19. Don't you think that if God wanted us to use musical instruments that he would of commanded them to be used?
That doesn't mean that they didn't use them, cougan!! You're ASSUMING things, and adding commandments that don't exist!! IF it had been an important issue, it would have been delt with in the NT. We would have received warning after warning to not use musical instruments!! You're clinging to the commandments of men!!

AUNTIE I did deep research on musical history and I found that the notable scholars agree that musical instruments did not start finding its way in to the church until the 5th and 6th century. Then it wasnt even generally accepted until around 1200 AD. It introduction was meet with great resistence and many comentators and muscal historying agree that musical instruments were not used in the early church. I have about 50 different sources that state this and I plan on listing them latter just to drive the point home. The introduction of musical instruments into worship service was inovation of man so I would say in my humble opinion that it you that is clingng to the commandments of men.

This issue has nothing to do with the LAW, cougan!! Jesus freed us from the LAW!! We are no longer in bondage to the LAW, cougan!! Get your heart on LOVE, not the LAW!! If someone worships God with musical intruments, it is because of LOVE for God, and NOT because we are STRIVING to keep a LAW!!

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Musical instruments is not commanded under the new convenant so if you using musical instruments to worship God you are doing something that is not authorized which in turns means you are not doing for the Love of God because you are obeying something other than he commanded.

2nd point.

We are to walk by faith 2Cor 5:7
Faith comes by the word Rom 10:17
If not by faith then it is a sin. Rom 14:23

Since there is not commandment or example in the new covenant of using musical instruments then it cant be by faith and it is a sin.

3rd point

2tim 3:16-17 say we are furnished... everygood work. Since NT furnishes us unto every good work, and mechanical music is not authorized it is not a good work.

Let me say this cougan, if everything you do is motivated out of "commandment keeping", then you have MISSED the whole gospel!! Your faith is no different than that of the Jews!! Jesus is MUCH MUCH MORE than simply going from one set of rules to another set of rules!! If that were the case, we would have no need for a new covenant!! You make the old covenant sound like a better covenant!! God forbid!! Were the Jews free to worship God with musical instruments, and we are not???? God forbid that you should even say such a thing!! You would put the Christian in BONDAGE to a LAW that doen't exist??? God forbid!!

This would be a silly issue, except for the fact that some Christians have been brainwashed into believing things that are NOT of God, and they live in bondage because of it!!

Cougan, if you choose to worship without musical instruments, then that's fine!:) No problem! I wouldn't want you to worship in a way that you think is sinful. But regardless of what you have been taught, it is NOT a sin, except that you BELIEVE it is sin. [/B]

Auntie I am not motivated out of commadment keeping. Just like the verse I used above I am motivated because I love my Lord and I want to keep and obey his commandments. We were freed from the Old Law yes indeed but, we are under a new convenant, a better covenant Heb 7:22, 8:6. This does not mean we are free to do as we will. I suggest you read my post #74 where I show that we are indeed under a new law that is Christ law. Autie you must draw a line you cant just say well if you ok with it just do it as long as you BELIVE its ok. If musical instruments are to be used in worship it would be sin not to use them and visa versa.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
And a question regarding aids for worship for cougan:

(from David Martin's website...)

If the "Church of Christ" claims to worship God only as "authorized" by scripture because they sing only (and do not use instrumental music), then where do they get the "authority" to use hymnals, pitchpipes, pews, and indoor baptistries in their worship services? If the answer is that they are "aids to worship," where does the Bible allow for that? Where is your required authorization? If a pitchpipe can be an "aid to worship" for the song service in the "Church of Christ," then why can't a piano be an "aid to worship" for Baptists who may need more help in singing?

I have already answered this question in #62 when I showed the difference between an "aid" and "addition". Go back and read it again but I will offer more here since you seem to think I have not answered your question.

What qualifies for an aid?

An aid is something that helps you to do the thing the Lord directed without adding an element to thing commanded. Let me show you a few more examples from the bible that shows the difference between an "aid" and an "addition".

God tell Noah to make an Ark out of Gopher wood Gen 6:14. God specified the kind of wood but he did not elimanate aids. What aids could he use? Consisder the following Chart.

Wood -- Gopher
Aid --- Hammer, saw
Addition -- Poplar, Oak

When Noah uses his aids hammer and saw when he finishes the ark it is still made of Gopher wood. However if another type of wood were added such as Poplar or Oak It would not be that which the Lord commanded.

Jesus asked us to eat the Lords Supper in remembrance of him 1Cor 11:20-26. What do think would constitute as an aid or an addition to the Lords Supper?

Food-- fruit of the vine, Bread
Aid-- Plate, Table
Addition-- Milk,Meat

If served with a plate and on a table, the specified food would still be partaken. IF another type of food were added like milk or meat it would not be that which the Lord commanded.

Christ wants us to sing. He gives us the commandment to sing(col 3:16, eph 5:19). He specified the type of music. What would constitute as an aid and an addition?

Music-- sing
Aid-- Song book, Notes
Addition-- Play

If we sing with a song book which has notes, the specified music would be heard by God and nothing else. If another type of music was added such as playing an insturment it would not be that which the Lord commanded. We can clearly see that when God specified a type of something, this eliminated all other types witch would be an addition. Aids to not add to the type specified in any way.

The instrument is not an aid. It is an addition. We can see clearly from the following verses that musical instruments were used to worship God.

Psalm 43:4 Then I will go to the altar of God, To God my exceeding joy; And on the harp I will praise You, O God, my God.

Psalm 150:3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!


Here we clearly see that in the old law the musical instrument was used for worshiping God and used to praise him. Of course we are no longer under the old law. See post #64. When something is used for worship it cannot be an aid. Why? Because if it is worship, then we must do it (or not do it if it is vain worship. ) If it is an aid then we have the option of doing it (such as the case of the song book or song leader). We do not find an insturment being an aid anywhere in scripture. Since it is not an aid, it is a form of worship. Since it is a form of worship not authorized in the NT, it is vain worship.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by Auntie
You are totally brainwashed, cougan. May God open your eyes to His truth.:sigh:

sticks and stones... I find it quite interesting that I give book chapter and verse to backup my view but all I get in response is that I am brainwashed. Everything I have presented is logical and its backed up by the word of God. So if it makes you feel better you go right ahead and think to yourself that I am brain washed. Autie let me share something with you. I was not raised in a church or had exposer to a church. When I meet my wife I started going to church with her on and off and it took me 3 years of going for me to finnally decide to become christian. I was 20 years old when I accepted Christ as my savior. I have always looked to the word of God for my guidence and not what men have said. I have studied and studied and studied somemore to make sure what I and the christian I fellowship with are teaching what the word of God says. It is easy to just make statements but its a different thing to use book chapter verse to back up your view. Again I would'nt share this with you about musical instruments if I did not love you.

Cougan
 
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ScottEmerson

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There has been evidence that the Church actually removed instruments from the Church to separate it from other religions... They did so not from Biblical authority, but from trying to make it different from the pagan sects. The implication is that instruments were used in the early church, until around 395 A.D., when the Church was worried about its power - so it commanded the removal of the instruments from their worship services. This was a chain of decisions made by the Church to increase its power, instead of making decisions based upon Biblical evidence...

http://www.stevenestrella.com/composers/index.html?ancientmusic.html

There is little evidence that Ancient Romans contributed much to music history other than the development of brass instruments used in the military. The Romans conquered Greece in 146 B.C. and assimilated and adapted Greek music and religion. Writings of Cicero, Quintilian, and others document the use of music for purely entertainment purposes at large festivals with choruses and instrumental ensembles. The gradual decline of Rome after 200 A.D. took place as the popularity of Christianity was increasing. The emperor Constantine I, who ruled from 306 to 337 A.D., adopted Christianity and legalized it for the first time in the Roman empire. Rome had for centuries exerted a peaceful and unifying influence on Europe but that was gradually disintegrating as barbarians increasingly threatened the security of the empire. When the Roman empire was permanently divided in 395 A.D., Christianity became the only major cultural force unifying the still vital eastern empire in Byzantium with the rapidly dissolving western empire in Europe. By the time the last Roman emperor, the young Romulus Augustulus, was finally deposed in 476, the papacy had established itself in Rome and was asserting jurisdiction over the Christian church. The music of the Christian church was for centuries the only cultivated art music in existence in Europe. Early Christian music, largely monophonic chant influenced by the Jewish cantorial tradition, was entirely vocal as the church attempted to purge the masses of the instrumental music associated with competing religions. Latin translations by Boethius (circa 480-524) and Cassiodorus (circa 490-585) of Greek literature on music theory also contributed to the theoretical foundations of early Christian chant. It is from these origins that the history of western art music properly begins.
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by cougan
sticks and stones... I find it quite interesting that I give book chapter and verse to backup my view but all I get in response is that I am brainwashed.


Sorry, cougan, I didn't mean to insult you. It's just that people who have been brainwashed are completely unaware of it. Take the Jehovah Witnesses for example, they are very sincere in their beliefs, but brainwashed all the same. I could spend MONTHS of typing and research to try and enlighten you, but I have witnessed Ben Johnson giving his ALL to you and you have failed to see the light. When scriptures are used to place a person in bondage, it is nigh impossible to use scripture to get that person out of bondage. What is required is listening to the Holy Spirit, and allowing Him to enter your heart and teach you all things. The Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you, but cougan, you must first be willing to listen to the Holy Spirit. Your doctrines deny the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives today. Without the Holy Spirit as your guide, there is nothing that I can say to break the chains on your heart and break the chains on your mind.


Everything I have presented is logical and its backed up by the word of God. So if it makes you feel better you go right ahead and think to yourself that I am brain washed.


It doesn't make me "feel better", quite the contrary actually! Cougan, I would rejoice with you if you were to discover the freedom that Christ gives!! My desire is to bring you out of bondage, but no human being can do that for you. You, cougan, must be willing to listen to the Holy Spirit in your heart. You are in fear of listening to that "still small voice", because you fear it may be your own voice or the voice of the devil. Your fears are preventing the Holy Spirit from reaching you, cougan. I encourage you to get to know the Holy Spirit. Do not be afraid of Him. He will not cause you to fall down or speak in tongues!! Cougan, you can't really know Jesus until you know the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit REVEALS Jesus to your heart! True Christianity is of the heart, not the mind or the ability to study and do research. Many people are unable to read or write, and Praise God, the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth of the gospel to their hearts. Of course we are to study if we are able, but many are not able. And theirs is a child like faith, trusting God with all of their hearts, even though they have never read even one word of the Bible, but the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to them.


Autie let me share something with you. I was not raised in a church or had exposer to a church. When I meet my wife I started going to church with her on and off and it took me 3 years of going for me to finnally decide to become christian. I was 20 years old when I accepted Christ as my savior. I have always looked to the word of God for my guidence and not what men have said. I have studied and studied and studied somemore to make sure what I and the christian I fellowship with are teaching what the word of God says. It is easy to just make statements but its a different thing to use book chapter verse to back up your view. Again I would'nt share this with you about musical instruments if I did not love you.

Cougan



Cougan, I admire and respect the fact that you have done so much study. But many great men have equally studied just as diligently as you have, and many of them came to different conclusions than your conclusions. I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe, and worship God in a manner that you believe is pleasing to Him. That doesn't give you the right to tell others they are sinning when they use a piano to help them stay on key while singing a hymn.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
For the record... Cougan got the addition/add information straight from http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/music.html - word for word, without any reference. Just for those who care about plagiarism...

You would be wrong once again. Thanks for the website though. ONE WHICH I HAVE NEVER SEEN. In just about all the books I use list some of these examples in one way or another. Again this is some sort of smoke screen to take the attention off the matter that you cant answer my arguments.So what if used some of the same examples of what and an aid is and an addition is that is found in the study material I used. The real question is can you answer the arguements my friend. I am under no obligation to list every source I use I am not selling this info I am just posting it for you to read. If I were writting a paper on a topic and was going to sell it I would indeed have footnotes and all sources listed. But this is a forum I dont feel it necessarry to end every post with a list of sources. Some of the things I quote come from tracts or other information that is not copyrighted nor has a person name assigned to it. So why dont you drop it already. But I tell you what just for you Scott I will list my sources that I used.

Notes for the Margin of my bible Wayne Jackson.
Boswell-Hardeman Discussion on Instrumental Music in the worship.
Worship in Song by Jimmy Jividen
In spirit & in truth by Tim Nichols
Singing and New Testament Worship by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
Intrumental Music Faith or Opinion Freed-Hardeman University
Instrumental Music in the Worship by M.C Kurfees.
Study & Grow by Paul Sain
Various Commentaries from the Denton Lectorships
KJV,ASV, NKV, NASV,RSV,NRSV, Greek Bible, Vines, Thayer, Robertson Word Picture, Strong Hebrew and Greek dictionary, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown, Internation Bible Encycolpedia
Christiancourier.com by Wayne Jackson
New Testament Commentaries by differing authors.
Why we sing and do not Play by Mark Swindall
The Wallace Hunt Debate on Mechanical Instruments by Bryan Hodge.
Tracts
The kind of Music God wants
Are Mechanical Instruments of music authorized by God in worship to him? by Jerry J Gentry
Is the use of Solos & Choirs In the Church Assemble Authorized in the NT  by Wayne Jackson.
Should We use instrumental Music in Worship to God?

There you go Scott there are all my sources that I remember using. Oh by the way some of these sources have multiple sources themselves. I hope this satisfies you continueing wrangling.  


 

 
 
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cougan

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Worship must be authorized by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not lead a man to do something outside of the Word, but the authorization is given by God himself.



You need to understand what "adding to the word of God means." I'm not writing a text. Just because a person receives a revelation does not mean they are writing a new text.



Again, if the Holy Spirit truly instructs a person to do it, it will NOT go against Biblical truths. You want the crux of my argument - that is it.



The Holy Spirit must authorize and lead a person to worship. If the Holy Spirit does not do it, then it is not authentic worship. How's that for a restriction?

Now that was'nt hard now was it Scott. I want to focus in on this part of your earlier post. You said some very wise words that I completely agree with.

Worship must be authorized by the Holy Spirit. The <B>Holy Spirit will not lead a man to do something outside of the Word</B>, but the authorization is given by God himself.

Again, <B>if the Holy Spirit&nbsp;truly instructs a person to do it, it will NOT go against Biblical truths</B>. You want the crux of my argument - that is it. (Source--Written by Scott)

Now really think about what you have said here. You are saying that IF someone is led by the HS it cannot and will not led them to do something found outside of the word of God. So if authorization for musical instruments are not found in the NT as a commandment or an example then HS could not led a person to play them in worship. We are told to test the spirits 1John 4:1. Just like you have inmplyed in your above statement we test the spirit by the word of God. Do you remember when you said I quoted 1Cort 4:6 out of context which says not to go beyond that which is written. Well you are agreeing with this very verse with your statement above. Even though it appears now that you agree with this verse let me quote a string of verses that say the same thing. 1st I want to quote one for the OT.

Deuteronomy 4:2 "<B>You shall not add to the word</B> which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.



Now from the NT.

2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and <B>does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God</B>. <B>He who abides in the doctrine of Christ</B> has both the Father and the Son.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, <B>preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.</B>

2 Timothy 1:13 <B>Hold fast the pattern of sound words </B>which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and <B>in which you stand</B>, 2 by which also ye are saved, <B>if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you</B>, except ye believed in vain.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, <B>contrary to the doctrine which ye learned</B>: and turn away from them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and <B>by their smooth and fair speech</B> they beguile the hearts of the innocent.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you <B>to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints</B>.

2peter 1:19 And so we have the <B>prophetic word confirmed</B>, which you do well <B>to heed as a light that shines in a dark place</B>, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;20 knowing this first, <B>that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke &lt;I&gt;as they were &lt;/I&gt;moved by the Holy Spirit</B>.

2Thes 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and <B>not according to the tradition which he received from us.</B>7 For you yourselves know <B>how you ought to follow us</B>, for we were not disorderly among you;

Titus 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they <B>may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things</B>.

2Tim 3:16 <B>All Scripture &lt;I&gt;is &lt;/I&gt;given by inspiration of God</B>, and &lt;I&gt;is &lt;/I&gt;profitable for<B> doctrine</B>, for <B>reproof</B>, for <B>correction</B>, for <B>instruction in righteousness</B>,17 that the <B>man of God may be complete</B>, <B>thoroughly equipped</B> for every good work.

So you see Scott we can not and must not go beyond that which is written. The words we have not make us complete and we are guided by the HS by means of the written word. Just because someone gets a yurning to go to the front of the church and push the preacher to the side and start preaching a message that just came to them does not mean that the HS guided them to do it. Anybody can claim anything as proper if they just say I was led by the spirit to do so. But I do agree with you my friend that the HS CANNOT AND WILL NOT led someone to do something that is not authorized in the NT. I am so glad that we agree on this.

Now I want to know Scott will you be humble enough to admit that I have destroyed both your 3rd and 4th arguement in your very first Post. I believe that I have torn down the walls of al&nbsp;4 arguements but I know you wont be so quick to give up arguement 1 and 2. You have verified to me that the silence of the scripture are not to be ignored and&nbsp;have answered you question about what the difference between a song book and a musical instrument are. You have also confirmed that we must to that which is authorized by the word and that the HS can only guide you by what is found in the word and not something outside of the word.

In other post you have shown to know about the Greek language. Why did you not comment on the following from post #61&nbsp;

&nbsp;In Eph. 5:19-21 there are five plural participles which have imperative force in agreement with the verb:&nbsp; speaking ([@lalountes]), singing ([@adontes]), making melody ([@psallontes]), giving thanks ([@eucharistountes]), submitting yourself ([@hupotassomenoi]).&nbsp; These are plural, and the idea, therefore, is all of you speaking, all of you singing, all of you making melody, all of you giving thanks, all of you submitting yourselves." Notice further that the speaking is [@heautois], which is plural, meaning "to yourselves, to one another."&nbsp; Thayer defined it, "reciprocally, mutually, one another."


In Col. 3:16 we read, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you ...&nbsp; (The expression "in you" there is [@en] [@humin]. That is plural.) richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another ...&nbsp; (The word there is [@heautous].) ... in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Observe to whom the Colossian epistle is addressed:&nbsp; "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colossae" (Col. 1:2).&nbsp; Notice the language:&nbsp; "let dwell" (present imperative), "in you" (plural, that is in all of you), "one another" (a reciprocal pronoun denoting an interchange of action, according to Dana and Mantey's grammar, page 131). Please note that this&nbsp; construction is used when an "interchange of action" is suggested by the verb. This is accomplished when the church is engaged in congregational singing.
 
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cougan

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TO AUNTIE.

You have not offended me at all. You have frustrated me however. I completly agree with you that JW are brain washed no doubt about it. I however am not. It would be one thing if I grew up in the church and was taught from a lad these things but as I have already explained I was not. I have always studied Gods words with an open mind. In fact I have done role reversals and read through the word trying to see if I could find some reason to justify what people are teaching. Everytime I found stuff it was so easily refuted by the truth that is using the whole council of God. It just amazes me that I use the word of God over and over again to back up my claims yet still you just offer your advice and own comments. You seem to put Ben into some lime light. I do not deny that Ben has stuck in there in the baptism thread you speak of. But if you go back and look at his post you will see that he contridicts himself and is not even really sure if HS baptism and Immersion in Christ are the same thing. I have backed him to corner so far but yet he just pretends that his arguements have not been defeated and just keeps spewing out more and more words. You go and look at my post and you will see that I stay consistant and do not contridict myself and that a lot my arguenments go unanswered. When I finish in this thread I am going to wrap up my baptism thread.

Anyways if you want to think I am in bondange and brainwashed becasue I use the word of God as my guide than go ahead doesnt bother me any.
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by ScottEmerson
There has been evidence that the Church actually removed instruments from the Church to separate it from other religions... They did so not from Biblical authority, but from trying to make it different from the pagan sects. The implication is that instruments were used in the early church, until around 395 A.D., when the Church was worried about its power - so it commanded the removal of the instruments from their worship services. This was a chain of decisions made by the Church to increase its power, instead of making decisions based upon Biblical evidence...

http://www.stevenestrella.com/composers/index.html?ancientmusic.html

There is little evidence that Ancient Romans contributed much to music history other than the development of brass instruments used in the military. The Romans conquered Greece in 146 B.C. and assimilated and adapted Greek music and religion. Writings of Cicero, Quintilian, and others document the use of music for purely entertainment purposes at large festivals with choruses and instrumental ensembles. The gradual decline of Rome after 200 A.D. took place as the popularity of Christianity was increasing. The emperor Constantine I, who ruled from 306 to 337 A.D., adopted Christianity and legalized it for the first time in the Roman empire. Rome had for centuries exerted a peaceful and unifying influence on Europe but that was gradually disintegrating as barbarians increasingly threatened the security of the empire. When the Roman empire was permanently divided in 395 A.D., Christianity became the only major cultural force unifying the still vital eastern empire in Byzantium with the rapidly dissolving western empire in Europe. By the time the last Roman emperor, the young Romulus Augustulus, was finally deposed in 476, the papacy had established itself in Rome and was asserting jurisdiction over the Christian church. The music of the Christian church was for centuries the only cultivated art music in existence in Europe. Early Christian music, largely monophonic chant influenced by the Jewish cantorial tradition, was entirely vocal as the church attempted to purge the masses of the instrumental music associated with competing religions. Latin translations by Boethius (circa 480-524) and Cassiodorus (circa 490-585) of Greek literature on music theory also contributed to the theoretical foundations of early Christian chant. It is from these origins that the history of western art music properly begins.

1st I would like to say that there is not a solitary mention of istrumental music in the worship of any NT church nor in any instance of Christian worship throughout the apostolic age. You do not see 1 command or example of musical instruments being used in worship in the bible. Let us draw our attention back to the word Psallo. The word Psallo has many different meaning depending on the time period it was used in. This same thing can be seen with other words. In one time period a word will mean one thing and in another time period it will mean another. This must be consisdered when looking at the definitions of words in Lexicons. Out of the following 17 Lexicons we can narrow the meaning of Psallo over time with 5 different definitions. Liddel and Scott, Robinson, Pickering, Groves, donnegan, Parkhurst, Dunbar, Bagster, M Wright, W.Green Field, Yonge, Contopoulos, Edward Maltbys greek Gradus, Hamilton, Thayer, Sophocles, Thomas Sheldon Green.

1. To pluck the hair
2. To twang the bowstring
3. To Twitch a carpeenters line
4. To touch the chords of a musical instrument, that is, to make instrumental music
5. To touch the chords of the human heart, that is, to sing, to celbrate with hymns of praise.

Here we have 5 distinct meaning of the word psallo from the different Lexicons. So what do we do? Do we just grab which meaning we want and apply it to the NT time. We can see that psallo at one time meant to pluck the hair. So does that mean that when we assemble together that we could do like Nehemiah Nem 13:25 and pluck off each others hair as a part of our worship? If not why not? Again if we take 2 and 3 does this mean we can twang the bowstring and twitch the carpeenters line in worship today? This is why it is very important to find out what a word meant during a certain time. We need to look at what the word psallo meant during the NT time. Please note the following time line of different periods of language uses as&nbsp;described by Sophocles in his lexicon.&nbsp;

1. The Mythical Period, the time prior to Homer
2. The ionic Period, from Homer to BC 500.
3. The attic Period, form BC 500 to BC 283
4.The Alexandrain Period, from BC 283 to BC 146
5. The Roman Peroid, fro BC 146 to AD 330
6 The Byzantine Period, form AD. 330 to 1453.

Other Scolars vary slightly from Sophocles both as to number and exact time periods but they all come to the same conculsions. The meanings of word differ in these different time periods. The question becomes what did the word Psallo mean during the NT time?

The Greek lexicon of Sophocles, himself a native Greek and for thirty-eight years Professor of&nbsp; the Greek Language in Havard University, covers all of the Roman period oand the Byzantine period down to the end of the 11 century, in all more than 1200 years history of the language from BC 146 to AD 1100. As the basis of his monumental work, this profound and tireless schoar examined 146 secular and 77 ecclesiastical authors of the Roman period, and 109 secular and 262 ecclesiastical, modern Greek, and scholastic authors of the Byzantine period, a grand total of 594 authors and convering a perod of more thatn 1200 years and he decllares that there is not a single example of psallo throughout this long period of time involving or implying the use of an instrument,&nbsp; but says that it meant always and everywhere "to chant, sing, religious hymns.

Thayer express this same idea when it came to the NT time. He says in the New Testament to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song.

Even though there many meaning to the word psallo we can see that from these&nbsp;2 scholars especially from&nbsp; Sophocles who was devoted exclusivly to the&nbsp;Roman and Byzantine periods that the word Psallo did not have the meaning of using a musical instrument.

To Sum it up, in its primary sense psallo had no reference to music at all, but meant mearly to touch or twitch or pull, then it was used to denote the drawing of a bowstring in shooting arrows, afterwards it was restricticted to making music on a harp by touching its strings, then it was applied to singing with the accompaniment of harp music, finally it was used to denote singing psalms without any instrument save the organs of speech. In this last use it is used exclusively in the NT.

You seem to think your post implies they use musical instruments in the early church well if this is true than all the following have completly missed that evidence.

Dr Frederic Louis Ritter.

He states that the 1st century Christians were pureley vocal. He also says as late as the 4th century, St Hieronymus says, speaking of the degraded state of roman spectacles, "A Christian maid should not know what a lyre or flute is, nor what ther use is.

Edward Dickinson Professor of the History of Music says.

Many of the fathers speaking of religeous song, make no mention of instruments, others like Clement of Alexadrial and St chrysostom, refer to them only to denounce them. Clement says "Only one instrument do we use, the&nbsp;word of peace whee with we honor God no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute. Chrysostom exclaims: "David formerly sand in psalms, also we sing today with him, he had the lyre with lifeless strings, the chruch has a lyre with living strings. Our songues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."

Frank Landon Humphreys author of the evolution of church music says: All the music employed in their early services was vocal, and the rhythmic element and all gesticulation were forbidden.

The American Cyclopidian, Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia, and the New International Encyclopedia all claim that musical instruments were first introduced under Pope Vitalian about 670AD. They say that in the Greek Church the organ never came into use. But after the 8th century it became more common in the Latin Church but with oppositon form the side of the monks.

McClintock and Strongs Cyclopedia:

The Eastern church has never been any other than vocal, instrumental music being unknown in that church, as it was in the primitive church.

Chambers Encyclopedia, A concise Cyclopeia of Religious Knowledge, Johnsons Universal Cyclopedia and Fessendens Encyclopedia.

All of these echo the same thing that musical instrments were not introduced until the 6th centurey and that the early primitive church sang they did not play.

I could list at least 25 more sources that say the same thing but I think this is enough to show that the early church did not use musical instruments but sang with their voice. This goes right along with what the bible says and shows us as an example to follow.
 
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ScottEmerson

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Originally posted by cougan
Now really think about what you have said here. You are saying that IF someone is led by the HS it cannot and will not led them to do something found outside of the word of God.


If someone is led by the Holy Spirit, it cannot and will not lead them to do something found outside the WILL of God. It also will not tell them to do something that would fall OUTSIDE of Biblical truth. Note that there are several things in the world that are not specifically mentioned in the Word, but the Spirit helps us to apply the Biblical teachings to specific situations.

So if authorization for musical instruments are not found in the NT as a commandment or an example then HS could not led a person to play them in worship.

Incorrect.

We are told to test the spirits 1John 4:1.

Finish the rest of the passage: 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. [/quote]

So, if I am led by the Spirit to worship using instruments to declare that Jesus came in the flesh, then it really is the Spirit!

Just like you have inmplyed in your above statement we test the spirit by the word of God.

We test the Spirit by seeing if it acknowledges that Christ came in the flesh.

Do you remember when you said I quoted 1Cort 4:6 out of context which says not to go beyond that which is written. Well you are agreeing with this very verse with your statement above. Even though it appears now that you agree with this verse let me quote a string of verses that say the same thing. 1st I want to quote one for the OT.
I do not. I hope my above comments help you out.

Deuteronomy 4:2 "<B>You shall not add to the word</B> which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

I thought it didn't matter, since the old covenant passed away? And what do we do about the other Biblical writings that appeared AFTER this was written? Two questions that I'd like to see you answer.

Now from the NT.

2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and <B>does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God</B>. <B>He who abides in the doctrine of Christ</B> has both the Father and the Son.

Jesus Christ personally doesn't mention homosexuality. What does that say about homosexulaity? What does the "doctrine of Christ" mean? It means that Christ has come in the flesh! Read the few verses beforehand!

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, <B>preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.</B>

What is the "gospel" specifically? It is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe! Read the two verses before and the two afterwards.

2 Timothy 1:13 <B>Hold fast the pattern of sound words </B>which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

And we learn at the end of John that there are many things that Jesus did that are not mentioned, for there would not be enough books in the world to hold them all. Could this not be true of Paul? Are you saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Paul to never have mentioned (or even joined in) instrumental worship, even if it was tapping drums or clapping hands?

Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and <B>in which you stand</B>, 2 by which also ye are saved, <B>if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you</B>, except ye believed in vain.

So you are saved by not doing instrumental worship? Because the specific gospel is the one by which you were saved!

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, <B>contrary to the doctrine which ye learned</B>: and turn away from them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and <B>by their smooth and fair speech</B> they beguile the hearts of the innocent.

My guess is that instrumental worship is not beguiling any human from true worship. Just listen to their testimonies! Again, Holy Spirit-led worship will not cause divisions nor stumbling. As long as such worship does not do this in the assembly, then it is okay do to.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you <B>to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints</B>.

Faith is belief in Christ Jesus. The people Jude are warning about are, "godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." Surely you don't believe that those who worship with instruments are doing this!
 
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