Musical Instruments in Worship

Mϋzikdϋde · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 

Thank you for your comments.  I will take them to heart in analyzing how to respond in a medium which imperfectly communicates not only intent but manner.  I will not let that imperfection prevent me from seriously considering that I am arrogant and proud.  Thank you for admonishing me to be a better person.  You will forgive me if I do not return the favor.

Better person? That wasn't my intention. I have no idea what kind of person you are. I'm sure the whole thing would have been different had we met face to face and I welcome admonishment. I myself am not above pride. I guess I just have an artists temperment.

Back on topic...Once and for all...in less than 50,000 words...what is your opinion on instruments in a corporate worship setting? I'm the type of person who needs the abridged version.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by muzikdude
Better person? That wasn't my intention. I have no idea what kind of person you are. I'm sure the whole thing would have been different had we met face to face and I welcome admonishment. I myself am not above pride. I guess I just have an artists temperment.

Back on topic...Once and for all...in less than 50,000 words...what is your opinion on instruments in a corporate worship setting? I'm the type of person who needs the abridged version.

Keep posting!  God bless.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 16, 2003

Christian performers and artists wrestle not with flesh and blood but with their own egos. Christian performers must get their egos out of the way so that their music can glorify God. The typical "tempermental" artist is ill equipped to perform "egolessly" in any forum let alone one which should focus on God and not on them. Any artist who denies this struggle is being less than honest.

When one of these Christian artists stands up in the coporate worship hour and performs, congregants cannot possibly see this struggle. If they did, most congregations would ask their performers to stop if for no other reason than concern for the spiritual health of the performer.

Reality: most Christian performances mix glory to God with glory to the artist. Every Christian performer religiously insists that their performance is for the glory of God but try this test with your Sunday morning performers---see how well they take criticism of their performance. An equally telling test is to watch their reaction to your regular praise of their performance. Perhaps even more insightful would be to sit in on some of the frank discussions of your music minister and his performers. Ego abounds and bruised egos have destroyed many choirs, praise teams, and Christian Rock groups.

At a concert, the mixture of glory to God and glory to the artist can pass under the command to give honor to whom honor is due but to use the corporate worship hour as an ego trip, all the while insisting you are giving all the glory to God is dishonest and lying to the Holy Spirit and if this discussion forum can so easily migrate from a discussion of appropriate music to a focus on the various posters, imagine what is happening on stage when these guys perform on Sunday morning.

Warrior FC · Jan 16, 2003

God is now calling His true worshippers to come forth! He is looking for people that will worship Him in Spirit and truth! Praise and worship music itself, in many of our gatherings, has simply become a performance and looked at as a golden calf in the eyes of the Lord! He is now asking us to put down our performances and pre-rehearsed routines so that He can bring forth a new worship, by His Spirit, that comes from deep within us! God is not so much concerned about how well put together a song is, or how good it sounds to the ear..
He is listening for the sounds that come from our heart!

FluviusNeckar · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Warrior FC
God is now calling His true worshippers to come forth! He is looking for people that will worship Him in Spirit and truth! Praise and worship music itself, in many of our gatherings, has simply become a performance and looked at as a golden calf in the eyes of the Lord! He is now asking us to put down our performances and pre-rehearsed routines so that He can bring forth a new worship, by His Spirit, that comes from deep within us! God is not so much concerned about how well put together a song is, or how good it sounds to the ear..
He is listening for the sounds that come from our heart!

Thank you Lord that you have hidden these things from the eyes of the wise and revealed them to your little children.

Please keep posting!

cougan · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by muzikdude
I'm only referring to what they looked like. I would never presume to know what's in their hearts. Secondly, I am only referring to the small number of churches that I have visited. I don't pretend to have visited enough churches to enable myself to generalize.  I recall asking the questions: Which is right? and Who are we to say? My point is that no matter what our perception is we need to overcome our tendency to be arrogant and realize that no matter how eloquent and insightful we think we are, it is wrong to tell someone that their particular form of worship is biblically incorrect. Unless, of course, it is obvious like human sacrifice...(facetiousness)

Which is more pleasing to God? Connecting with Him in a room full of instruments playing or connecting with Him in a silent room? I don't think it would matter to God if I connected with Him while sitting on a toilet. If instruments distract worshippers then the entire worship program needs to be evaluated. Maybe we should also look at the worshippers themselves. Maybe the problem is a lukewarm church. Either way, I play guitar and I feel the Holy Spirit when I'm playing worship songs but I don't feel that a guitar is a necessity for successful worship.

Worship is a lifestyle, music is my tool of choice to show fruit of the Spirit. Don't tell me I'm wrong or sinning when the Holy Spirit is leading me in what I'm doing and others follow in what I'm doing.

When I go into the General Apologetics forum Atheists are constantly cutting Christians down for their arrogance and  hypocrisy and now I see why. Some of us act like we are so far above the others because we analyze Gods word and brotherly love is thrown to the wind.

I just want to say that I am not attacking you at all. Please keep in mind this is a debate thread. I do love you and I do not esteem myself higher than you. Just like Paul tells us in Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. I am just trying my best to show the truth as I have studied from his word. You see it over and over again for us to teach others and be careful what we teach to make sure it is doctrine. 2Tim 2:1, 1Tim 1:3. The bible tells us to study.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It also tells us that we can know what is right and wrong by studying what the word of God says because it is all there in the written word.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Everthing we need to know is found in the bible and we can even have the understanding of the apostle Paul.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ )

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

We need to continue to grow by studying Gods word and through prayer. I would hope that if you found musical instruments not to be authorized in worship that you would tell me about it so I could study the matter out and see if it is so.

When you asked which is more pleasing to God my answer is.

John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

That is the reason I quoted Galations. How intelligent and insightful do you think you are? That's not rhetorical, I really want you to admit it.

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I thought you quoted 1 Cort? Did you quote Gal in some other post if so which verse?

My answer to that question is: "I'm ignorant and always will be, that's why I rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance"

I try to keep my focus on God so I came to this forum for some fellowship. I love music so I thought this would be a good thread. Instead of fellowship I find belittlement and bickering.

So much for the Christian image and evangelizing.

You can reply to this and claim that it's just a civil debate and no harm is done but I truly believe tha God never intended for His word to divide His children.

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You say you let the HS guide you. The word of God came from the HS through the apostles and prophets.

2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. See also 1Cor 2:13

We see in John 6:63 that the HS works through the word. See also Rom 1:16-18 John 20:31.

The HS can guide you by means of the written word. Now ask yourself can or will the HS guide you directly agaist what he has already spoken in the word of God? How do you know that it is the HS? Do you feel some sort of emotion or thought or does he speak to you in words as in Acts 13:2 or does he guide you into all truth and tell you of things to come John 16:13 or does he speak for you when you have no idea what to say Mat 10:19-20.

You are right God never intended for his word to divide his children but he knew it would happen because of men leading people astray and because of the itching ears of those wanting to please themselves.

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

This is why I am pleading for you to go back to the bible and use it for your authority and not what your preacher says. We need to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

So please stop relying on how you feel or think about something, instead see what the word of God says about it. I have tried to do this as I back up what I say with scripture and not just my own words. I took me 11hours to study, write, and post those replys to the very 1st post in this thread. I dont just sling words on here I think very carefully of what I am saying and try to do it in the best manner I can.

In Christian Love,

Cougan

cougan · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Warrior FC
God is now calling His true worshippers to come forth! He is looking for people that will worship Him in Spirit and truth! Praise and worship music itself, in many of our gatherings, has simply become a performance and looked at as a golden calf in the eyes of the Lord! He is now asking us to put down our performances and pre-rehearsed routines so that He can bring forth a new worship, by His Spirit, that comes from deep within us! God is not so much concerned about how well put together a song is, or how good it sounds to the ear..
He is listening for the sounds that come from our heart!

Very nicely said!

ScottEmerson · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by cougan

First lets deal with your silence of scripture argument. I don't think you put much thought into this my friend. You have just put yourself in one hairy predicament. This is what you are stating with your argument. IF THE  BIBLE IS SILENT ON A SPECIFIC ISSUE THAN  ITS OK TO DO IT.

This is not what I said. I said that if the Bible is silent concerning an issue, then we cannot give a blanket condemnation. Nowhere does it say that we are to use the restroom on a regular basis, but we assume that it is okay. There are thousands and thousands of things that we do regularly that are not in the Bible. I most certain am not saying that if the Bible is silent then it is okay to do it. If you are still confused, then re-read the argument. 

. Which of the following practices, if any, would you oppose if offered by Christians as worship to God?

    (a) Burning incense

Not sure why anyone would do this, but if they are led by the Spirit to do so, I am in no position to deny them.

  (b) Using rosary beads

Rosary beads are not used for worship - they are used for another purpose. However, if a person wants to use something similar to rosary beads to remember different aspects of God to worship, I am in no position to deny them that.

(c) Religious dancing

There are several instances in the BIble of people dancing before the LORD. If they choose to do that, and are led by God to do so, then I am in no position to deny that.

    (d) Handling snakes as a token of worship

Mark 16:18 talks about that. I don't take it as being in the original manuscipt. Since you do, that's your verse to comprehend.

(e) Using meat and potatoes on the Lord's table

Let's see... is there a specific prohibition? I Corinthians 11:33 seems to indicate that people eat a meal at the Lord's supper. Personally, I don't do it, but if other people do being led by God to do so, then I am in on position to deny them that.

   . If you would oppose any of the foregoing items, please state on what Scriptural basis you would do so.

See above.

If the silence of the scriptures are fallacy according to your view, then anything and everything that is not specifically mentioned in the bible can be done.

Again, see my first paragraph. This is not according to my view - you are constructing a slippery slope argument.

I believe  with all my heart that the bible teaches that only that which is authorized by the Bible is or can be pleasing to God.

So is using electricity? How about chewing gum? How about any of the modern things we use on a daily basis, including a computer? This statement is so narrow, it is almost humourous!

To clarify your position  to me and the others  reading  this please answer the following  questions. 

  1. Please indicate whether each of the following statements is true or false:

    (a) Worship must be offered to God as authorized by Divine truth.  True or false?

Worship is compelled by a Holy God. Without God's guidance, we cannot initiate true worship. If the LORD instructs me to worship using an instrument, I must offer it to Him as a gift to him.

    (b) Worship may be rendered to God according to that which one devises and prescribes for himself.  True or false?

I do not think that my singing AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" is pleasing to God. I do not think that would be commanded as worship.

    (c) It is possible for there to exist in our day such a thing as vain worship.  True or false?

Yes, just as it existed in Paul's time. The book of I Corinthians is loaded with such examples.

2. Are there any restrictions on what a New Testament Christian may offer as worship to God?  If so, please state what they are and how they may be determined.

We are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We are to sacrifice self in our worship. Hymns, confessions of faith, doxologies, sermons, Scripture readings, symbols, and benedictions should all grown out of God's ultimated revelation in Christ. Types of music are not restricted.

ScottEmerson · Jan 16, 2003

"And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him" (Col. 3:17). This verse says that regardless of our teaching or practice, it must come under the shelter of "doing all in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Or, whatever we do must be done in the name of the Lord. So I can play instruments in worship in the name of the Lord - which is how I DO do it.

"In the name of," means "by the authority of" and this is easily proven by Acts 4:7-10. The bible makes it crystal clear that we are not to go beyond that which is written 1Cor 4:6.

So "by the name" means the same as "in the name." Do more exegesis on the different ways "the name of the Lord" is used. Oh, and you've RIPPED I Corinthians 4:6 out of context. Check it out again.

Of course Scott would have us to believe that we can go beyond that which is written.

It's called using the sense God gave us, cougan. It's called understanding what worship is. It's called responding to the call of the Holy Spirit.

We as Christians today should abide in the doctrine of Chirst (2John 1:9)

So what specifically does Christ say about worship? HOw is using instruments contradicting what He said, as long as it is done in spirit and in truth?

and not doctrines of men (Mat 15:9)

And you quote Paul underneath? Is he not a man? Hmm...

Again, in 2 John 1:9 it is said, "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God." Doctrine is not to be treated frivolously. Paul said to Timothy, "Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine; continue in them, for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4:16). He instructed Titus, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1).

And instrumental worship IS sound doctrine. It does not contradict an iota of the Biblical evidence. Spirit. Truth. If a person is led by God to use instruments, are YOU willing to say "no" to that?

Now here is another powerful point I want you notice in 2 Cor. 5:7, Paul says, "For we walk by faith, not by sight." Again, in Heb. 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please him." Christianity is a system of faith, and our worship to God must be offered in faith in order to please Him.

And music can be offered in faith instrumentally. And it is every Sunday.

Where there is no Word, there can be no faith, for "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). Watch it, now -- no Word, no faith; no faith, no walking by faith; no walking by faith, no pleasing God! Now, that is simple, but it is Biblical and shows that we are to respect the silence of the scriptures.

Romans 10:17 is talking about the call of the gospel. Why are you RIPPING this verse completely out of context? Matter of fact, read Paul's entire argument from Romans 8-11. I wonder what you think about that.

Now with all this in mind I want to introduce 2 verses that tells us how it is we are to sing in our worship to God.

Okay.

ScottEmerson · Jan 17, 2003

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God.
Ephesians 5:19 speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Now consider the following  chart.

The Bible               The                      The
Commands           voice               Instrument
Speak in song        can                    cannot
Eph 5:19  
Teach                  can                    cannot
Col 3:16
Admonish              can                    cannot
Col 3:16
Make melody          can                    cannot
In the heart
Eph 5:19

From Matthew Henry's commentary:

By psalms may be meant Davids psalms, or such composures as were fitly sung with musical instruments. By hymns may be meant such others as were confined to matter of praise, as those of Zacharias, Simeon, etc. Spiritual songs may contain a greater variety of matter, doctrinal, prophetical, historical, etc. Observe here, (1.) The singing of psalms and hymns is a gospel ordinance: it is an ordinance of God, and appointed for his glory. (2.) Though Christianity is an enemy to profane mirth, yet it encourages joy and gladness, and the proper expressions of these in the professors of it. Gods people have reason to rejoice, and to sing for joy. They are to sing and to make melody in their hearts; not only with their voices, but with inward affection, and then their doing this will be as delightful and acceptable to God as music is to us: and it must be with a design to please him, and to promote his glory, that we do this; and then it will be done to the Lord.

And his commentary to Colossians 3:16

Singing of psalms is a gospel ordinance: psalmois kai hymnois kai oµdaisthe Psalms of David, and spiritual hymns and odes, collected out of the scripture, and suited to special occasions, instead of their lewd and profane songs in their idolatrous worship. Religious poesy seems countenanced by these expressions and is capable of great edification. But, when we sing psalms, we make no melody unless we sing with grace in our hearts, unless we are suitably affected with what we sing and go along in it with true devotion and understanding. Singing of psalms is a teaching ordinance as well as a praising ordinance; and we are not only to quicken and encourage ourselves, but to teach and admonish one another, mutually excite our affections, and convey instructions

Here's some common sense: Old Testament Psalms were sung with instrumental worship. Paul does not tell us to stop using the psalms - instead, he encourages us to continue. He does not say, "Do the Psalms, but stop using those instruments, y'hear?" He says simply to teach and sing "Psalms!"

Everyone is to speak, teach, and admonish one another in song. This is the only authority we have for singing. Everyone in the assembly must  participate  in the singing or they are in violation of these two passages

One person can sing to a congregation without breaking this command in the slightest! If a person can preach to a congregation without everyone speaking, the same can apply with singing. Quite simply, if a person can teach a congregation, then a single person or group can lead in worship.

ScottEmerson · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by cougan  
At the time that Paul wrote Eph 5:19, Rom 15:9, col 3:16 and 1cor 14:15 "psallo" simply meant "to sing" or "make melody" in koine Greek (the language which Paul wrote)

So you agree that it can mean to "make melody."

When an instrument  is intended, the instrument is named.[/quote[

Proof?

Paul was inspired  to name the heart in eph 5:19. Our singing is to be accompanied by melody made with the heart.

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And this excludes an instrument...how?

But a mechanical instrument is not implied by "psallo". If "psallo" included the instrument, then all would need to both sing and play an instrument in order to obey Eph 5:19.

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See the previous post. It is possible for one person to worship, just as one person can teach a group.

It would be wrong to sing spiritual songs without an instrument and Paul and Silias were out of line to sing in prison unless they had mechanical instruments.

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If you could only imagine the kind of freedom you are given as a child of God, it would really revolutionize your life. How do we know they didn't beat their chains together to provide a beat? If they were singing the way the Psalms were sung, they very well might have.

The Greek word Psallo is applied among the Greeks of modern times exclusively to sacred music, which in the Eastern Church has never been any other than vocal, instrumental music being unknown in that church, as it was in the primitive church.

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You plagarize a lot, you know that? Your use of mechanical instruments was one clue, as it shifted from instrumental music. A quick search shows that the rest of your argument was taken mostly from http://members.cox.net/hpcoc/tracts/job117u.htm

Do a better job at referencing - otherwise you are stealing another person's words, which is, I believe, a sin, right?

Some through the years have attempted to alter the argument that Psallo includes the instrument by saying thatit does not preclude the instrument.

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Since the Psalms were sung using instruments, I do not see why this is invalid.

Neither word includes or precludes the other.

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So since you would agree that it is neither included nor precluded, how in the world can you say to a person who is being led by God to play a piano offertory, "You sinner you! How dare you profane the name of God by playing that instrument (mechanical instrument - depending on your "source".) " You cannot.

We must have divine authority for all that we do in worship. Jn 4:24.

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And my singing in church with a praise team on Sunday morning is done in Spirit and Truth. It is a ministry that I have been divinely called to do.

We do not have 1 single example of instruments being used in NT worship. In all of the  verses Mat 26:30, Acts 16:25, Rom 15:9, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 Heb 2:2, Js 5:13 a mechanical instrument is not named.

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Sure we do. Read the book of Revelation! Instruments all over the place.

The rest of your argument is stripped from the website. Many of the people you quoted also believed in infant baptism, so does that mean you espouse that idea? I had hoped that the "argument from authority" fallacy would be avoided this time. Guess not. 

ScottEmerson · Jan 17, 2003

Keep the faith, musikdude - you've got a Christian brother in your corner.

Maybe they just need to experience worship in one of our churches for them to understand the power of God found in instrumental worship, huh?

Peace,

SEC

Mϋzikdϋde · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Christian performers and artists wrestle not with flesh and blood but with their own egos. Christian performers must get their egos out of the way so that their music can glorify God. The typical "tempermental" artist is ill equipped to perform "egolessly" in any forum let alone one which should focus on God and not on them. Any artist who denies this struggle is being less than honest.

When one of these Christian artists stands up in the coporate worship hour and performs, congregants cannot possibly see this struggle. If they did, most congregations would ask their performers to stop if for no other reason than concern for the spiritual health of the performer.

Reality: most Christian performances mix glory to God with glory to the artist. Every Christian performer religiously insists that their performance is for the glory of God but try this test with your Sunday morning performers---see how well they take criticism of their performance. An equally telling test is to watch their reaction to your regular praise of their performance. Perhaps even more insightful would be to sit in on some of the frank discussions of your music minister and his performers. Ego abounds and bruised egos have destroyed many choirs, praise teams, and Christian Rock groups.

At a concert, the mixture of glory to God and glory to the artist can pass under the command to give honor to whom honor is due but to use the corporate worship hour as an ego trip, all the while insisting you are giving all the glory to God is dishonest and lying to the Holy Spirit and if this discussion forum can so easily migrate from a discussion of appropriate music to a focus on the various posters, imagine what is happening on stage when these guys perform on Sunday morning.

Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. It was very well thought out and I agree with you. I do, however think that ego can be controlled to an extent but you have to be on top of it constantly. My praise team has no problems asking people to "take a break" to work on pride issues. We try to keep humility at the top of the "to do" list. Yet, we are human and no matter what we do for God there will be some level of pride involved. You need to take pride in what you do in order to give God your best. I think the real issue is; to whom do you give the credit? I know you probably disagree with that and I probably didn't state my point exactly the way I mean to, but I don't know any better way to say it.

Our team doesn't just go up and sing once a week. We are an accountability group who meet throughout the week and deal with more than just music issues. Sometimes during our "rehearsals" music doesn't even come up. We just go where the Spirit leads.

You make a lot of good points and I understand why you feel the way you do. I really do enjoy talking with you about it.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
Keep the faith, musikdude - you've got a Christian brother in your corner.

Maybe they just need to experience worship in one of our churches for them to understand the power of God found in instrumental worship, huh?

Peace,

SEC

Your division of the Christian world into your corner and another's corner IS the problem.  You excuse the faults of those in your and condemn the same in those of another corner.

At the very least you should take a serious look at the allies you have in your corner.  Not all is right there.

Mϋzikdϋde · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Your division of the Christian world into your corner and another's corner IS the problem.  You excuse the faults of those in your and condemn the same in those of another corner.

At the very least you should take a serious look at the allies you have in your corner.  Not all is right there.

I keep reading scottemerson's post and I fail to see where he condemned or excused anything nor did he point out anyone's faults. Maybe I can't see between the lines as well as some.

You are correct that all is not right here. So what? I need Jesus. Can you tell me what it's like to be so righteous and wise that you don't need anyone's help with anything? Sounds lonely.

Mϋzikdϋde · Jan 17, 2003

FluviusNeckar,
It's been great trying to match wits with you but I have to go pack for Iraq. (hey that rhymes) I'll be back at a later date. And yes when I do finally leave for "the big sandbox" I plan to take my guitar and worship my Lord and Savior in the chapel.
Peace

FluviusNeckar · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by muzikdude
FluviusNeckar,
It's been great trying to match wits with you but I have to go pack for Iraq. (hey that rhymes) I'll be back at a later date. And yes when I do finally leave for "the big sandbox" I plan to take my guitar and worship my Lord and Savior in the chapel.
Peace

 

Please do so.  I have never said you couldn't play to the glory of God in a chapel.  My prayers go with you but I must insist that this be our last communication.  God bless.

Mϋzikdϋde · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 
I must insist that this be our last communication.  God bless.

Heh, heh. Agreed. God Bless

FluviusNeckar · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by cougan
It also tells us that we can know what is right and wrong by studying what the word of God says because it is all there in the written word.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I have not responded to your posts those I have enjoyed reading them.  I do enjoy reading and learning and your posts provide so many useful citations.  My only suggestion is that you focus on brevity rather than thoroughness.  Many readers fail to make it to the end of your thoughts and effectiveness is lost.

I would like to note that the Greek word, "spoudao" in Latin is "studeo" which in both languages we translate as "I am eager."  It is one of the grandest jokes of history that this word became the word for students studying when students really are the only consumers who want less of what they pay for.

This dramatic change in the meaning of I Timothy makes little change in the effect of that scripture.  We should be eager to show ourselves approved unto God.  I remember a particularly Calvinist professor who once insisted that the very attempt to win God's approval demonstrated a "works-based" salvation.  In reality most Christians are unashamedly eager to do what they can to be approved by God.  "Studying" the Bible is one of the best ways to find out what does indeed please Him.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
One person can sing to a congregation without breaking this command in the slightest! If a person can preach to a congregation without everyone speaking, the same can apply with singing. Quite simply, if a person can teach a congregation, then a single person or group can lead in worship.

A solo can encourage, admonish, edify, and entertain a congregation of Christians.  Using the church building for such certainly violates no New Testament rule I know since the corporate assembly not the building is what is holy.  Paul treated the corporate assembly of the whole church/congregation with special care and it is that worship which I wish to protect from encroaching entertainment. 

The ideal remains as Paul desecribed it---interactive and participatory.  (When you come together, one has a scripture, another this another that, etc.)  A single person can lead or even sing to a congregation but when that singing becomes a (rehearsed) solo, we have shifted the ideal from interactive and participatory worship to a mixture of this ideal and the goal of entertaining.  (Failure to rehearse BTW is even worse.)  This subtle shift may be defensible if it did not inevitably erode interactive and participatory worship.   

As for your analogy to the preacher, maybe you should insist that even the preacher strive to perform less and engage the audience more.

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