Musical Instruments in Worship

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
When worship descends to a non-participative audience, something's wrong.

Are you saying that if there is a special singing (the choir for instance) and the congregation is seated (or not singing along), then that's wrong and not worship? How do you know that the congregation is not praying or meditating on the message of the song--is that not worship?

Also, it would seem that this idea that non-particpation = non-worship of community would prohibit any type of communal worship. What if visitors are non-believers or unfamiliar with the order of worship/uncomfortable with a different worship? Would that prohibit communal worship because not everyone gathered is of one mind? Do you think communal worship ever occurs then, and how can you tell? (Of course, I may have gotten your entire point wrong and just be spinning a web out here on the side.)

--tibac

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 

You describe a religious disease not worship.  When worship descends to a non-participative audience, something's wrong.  Modern play theory correctly recognizes that it has to get the audience involved in the play or the art dies.  Paul's admonition to sing back and forth to one another represents the reality of spiritually healthy worship.

Cool the jets there turbo! I was talking about some people not singing. If they are sitting with their hands raised who am I to say they are diseased? Who am I to presume the condition of any one elses heart?

If a noticealbe percentage of a congregation is not participating then I agree you have a problem with your worship.

For the record...worship is a lifestyle...music is a tool.

 

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

By the way, The church used to be the main venue for entertainment. If Christians didn't entertain because it isn't considered worshipful then our only choice for entertainment would be secular.
Anyone ever see Sonic Flood or FFH in concert? It's entertainment mixed with worship.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by wildernesse
While I wouldn't go as far as saying that church should be entertaining--I think entertaining has negative connotations in this instance--I believe that worship and fellowship should be joyful and exciting. Listening to beautiful music is a wonderful experience--and it is heightened by the addition of instrumental music to voices.

In fact, I would find it difficult for worship to be joyful and not exciting. And while entertainment is exciting too, I don't think that because we can feel the same way about simple pleasures means that those feelings shouldn't be part of our worship services.

However, I don't think that we are commanded to use musical instruments in our worship. We are commanded to praise God with what we have--most all of us have voices to lift up in song and hands to clap, but we don't all have instruments or the ability to use them. When we have a talent (in this case a musical one), we should use it for the glory of God.

--tibac

Great post.  I vote for you to become a moderator!  I disagree with some of what you say but thanks for your comments.  For the most part---you are right on point.

Worship is about what God like not about what we like.  Better get used to it 'cause that's the way they worship in heaven.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
By the way, The church used to be the main venue for entertainment. If Christians didn't entertain because it isn't considered worshipful then our only choice for entertainment would be secular.
Anyone ever see Sonic Flood or FFH in concert? It's entertainment mixed with worship.

 

You're arguing with your own contradictions not with any position presented here. 

Christian concerts are great.  No, they're a must!  Mixing entertainment with worship at Sonic Flood and FFH concerts are great since worship can never be restricted to Sunday mornings.

There is something fundamentally different about the Sunday morning worship hour when the whole church comes together, to use Paul's words.  Christian entertainment has never shown much restraint in running all over what should be happening in that sole hour when the whole body comes together to give back to God.  Hiring a musical clergy to do it for me just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 

You're arguing with your own contradictions not with any position presented here. 

Christian concerts are great.  No, they're a must!  Mixing entertainment with worship at Sonic Flood and FFH concerts are great since worship can never be restricted to Sunday mornings.

There is something fundamentally different about the Sunday morning worship hour when the whole church comes together, to use Paul's words.  Christian entertainment has never shown much restraint in running all over what should be happening in that sole hour when the whole body comes together to give back to God.  Hiring a musical clergy to do it for me just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

OK, I've been reading too much into what you were saying. We are arguing the same side of the issue but with different words. I mostly agree with you.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
Cool the jets there turbo! I was talking about some people not singing. If they are sitting with their hands raised who am I to say they are diseased? Who am I to presume the condition of any one elses heart?

If a noticealbe percentage of a congregation is not participating then I agree you have a problem with your worship.

For the record...worship is a lifestyle...music is a tool. 

Thank you for your clarification.  In fairness, I must note that I was not calling anyone diseased---that's your description.  Passivity in worship is a spiritual disease.  We agree on something fundamental.

Worship is a lifestyle but that truth circumvents the special nature of Sunday morning worship.  Corporate worship should be noticably different from a Christian concert and adding a sermon should not be the only difference.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Worship is a lifestyle but that truth circumvents the special nature of Sunday morning worship.  Corporate worship should be noticably different from a Christian concert and adding a sermon should not be the only difference.

Absolutely. Right now my church is going through a study on what authentic worship looks like. Exciting yet reverent, Spirit filled, purposeful, and easy to follow. It can't be about the music. We rehearse so we know the music so well we don't have to think about it when it's time to lead worship. We can put 100% focus on God.

I don't think I've been to 2 churches that worship exactly the same. That only proves how important worship time is. I've seen people leave churches because of the worship style.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
Absolutely. Right now my church is going through a study on what authentic worship looks like. Exciting yet reverent, Spirit filled, purposeful, and easy to follow. It can't be about the music. We rehearse so we know the music so well we don't have to think about it when it's time to lead worship. We can put 100% focus on God.

I don't think I've been to 2 churches that worship exactly the same. That only proves how important worship time is. I've seen people leave churches because of the worship style.

 

Great points.

I am concerned that you define authentic worship as something which you must pracitce to performance level perfection.  Congregants have no such option.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
By the way, The church used to be the main venue for entertainment.

Tell it to Shakespeare.  He might disagree.

Tell it to Paul.  He might object to this new role for the church.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 

Great points.

I am concerned that you define authentic worship as something which you must pracitce to performance level perfection.  Congregants have no such option.

No, no, no...nat at all. They are completely seperate.

I should say our worship leaders are going through the study on authentic worship. We rehearse so as not to be a distraction to the congregation. If the music is consistently lousy that is what the congregants will tend to focus on. If we are to successfully lead worship we must also be worshipping but if our focus is on the music we lose the ability to do so.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Tell it to Shakespeare.  He might disagree.

I said the main venue not the only venue

Tell it to Paul.  He might object to this new role for the church.

I wasn't going that far back and I didn't say it was right or wrong. I'm just saying that Christians need to be entertained. But we already agreed on that.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by wildernesse
Are you saying that if there is a special singing (the choir for instance) and the congregation is seated (or not singing along), then that's wrong and not worship? How do you know that the congregation is not praying or meditating on the message of the song--is that not worship?

Also, it would seem that this idea that non-particpation = non-worship of community would prohibit any type of communal worship. What if visitors are non-believers or unfamiliar with the order of worship/uncomfortable with a different worship? Would that prohibit communal worship because not everyone gathered is of one mind? Do you think communal worship ever occurs then, and how can you tell? (Of course, I may have gotten your entire point wrong and just be spinning a web out here on the side.)

--tibac

 

Thanks for your comments.

Paul described worship in the first centuries churches.  He said that when you come together, one of you has a song, one of you has a scripture, etc.

It was interactive and participatory.  That's the ideal.  He didn't say, when you come together, have a great concert.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
No, no, no...nat at all. They are completely seperate.

I should say our worship leaders are going through the study on authentic worship. We rehearse so as not to be a distraction to the congregation. If the music is consistently lousy that is what the congregants will tend to focus on. If we are to successfully lead worship we must also be worshipping but if our focus is on the music we lose the ability to do so.

Here's a really radical idea. Why not just stop performing on Sunday morning and let the congregants do the singing and worshipping.  If they had to, they could make a joyful noise too.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by muzikdude
I said the main venue not the only venue



I wasn't going that far back and I didn't say it was right or wrong. I'm just saying that Christians need to be entertained. But we already agreed on that.

The church has never been the main venue of entertainment---tell it to Rogers & Hammerstein. 

We have not agreed on what you say.  I agree that we need Christian entertainment and that Christian entertainers need a venue.  I add that the venue should not be the corporate worship time.  Sunday morning was when Jesus rose from the dead.  He didn't rise from the dead to give entertainenrs a forum for practicing their craft.

 

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
 

Thanks for your comments.

Paul described worship in the first centuries churches.  He said that when you come together, one of you has a song, one of you has a scripture, etc.

It was interactive and participatory.  That's the ideal.  He didn't say, when you come together, have a great concert.

I agree with you that congregational worship should be interactive and participatory. I also agree that this is the ideal and something not often acheived completely.

Do you think that a choir selection where the congregation is not part of the activity (singing) is poor worship, though? Well, let's not say poor let's say less than ideal. If you do, does this also apply to a sermon? During the teaching part of our worship there is little active participation in the teaching--I will say that there is still worship occurring in both--meditating on the message of the song and Bible teaching and praising God for what you learn are both types of complementary worship to these activities in my mind.

I do agree that it would be best if the congregation did participate in the choral performance--and our choir often encourages this when the song is familiar to the general congregation. Our music minister also is quick to say that choir isn't about performance art--it's about praise, and while he hope we do the best we can, our singing is not about performing but about worship. The same is true for the instrumentalists who accompany us.

--tibac

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Your black and white hermeneutic needs to make room for admonitions which appear in the imperative.  Even if I sit in church and never sing or play music, only someone with your black and white hermeneutic would conclude that I have sinned.  If you weren't so interested in arguing, you might have noticed that amending your hermeneutic does nothing to undermine your position on musical instrument. 

And you've missed the point. The CoC position is that musical instruments in the church are sin - not that those who do not use musical instruments are sinning. (Personally, I think they are just missing out.) I'm defending the position that musical instruments are not a sin to use in worship.

BTW you have NO clue what my position is if you are asking me to defend the things you mention above.  Listen before you attack.

the position was set up by cougan. Take it up with him.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Better get used to it 'cause that's the way they worship in heaven. [/B]

Nope - the Bible says the do use instruments in Heaven. See the harp reference from Revelation in the first post.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Make a joyful noise unto the lord all the earth

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
And you've missed the point. The CoC position is that musical instruments in the church are sin - not that those who do not use musical instruments are sinning. (Personally, I think they are just missing out.) I'm defending the position that musical instruments are not a sin to use in worship.



the position was set up by cougan. Take it up with him.

I didn't miss the point at all.  I'm not passing up an opportunity to point out to you and others what I point out to members of the church of Christ as well---just because it appears in the Bible as an imperative does not exclude the possibility that it is an admonition not a command.  If you were less interested in being right and proving others wrong, you might have caught what I said and realized it supports you not your opponents.