Hi buttermilk,
You are correct...as I stated myself earlier....words (in the big picture) mean nothing on their own, and are completely arbitrary to the culture.
That being said, if a
secular society considers a certain word a swearword (example..."damn" over "darn")....then we as Christians (who should be "shining lights of righteousness", and examples of the way Jesus would have lived) should definitely be making an effort to set ourselves apart from the sinful ways of the rest of the world. Whether that be anything from murdering, to swearing, to lying or whatever.
Most of the Christians I know swear to a greater or lesser extent,
Well then those Christians need to be slapped upside the head! 
Just because two or more people don't have a problem with each other doing something, doesn't make it right
Anyways...nuff said about that....onto holo
I'd rather not go into a verse war, I don't think that'll help anything
My intent was not to go into a "verse war". We've both stated up until that point that we were basing our statements on opinions alone. I thought it was time to bring in the Bible, since in the end, that's what we're discussing!
If I wanted, of course, I could quote hudnreds of verses from the epistles about how salvation is by grace and not works, but I hate those "bible battles".
If you can find
one verse in the ENTIRE Bible that states we can recieve salvation without repentance (ie...a verse that says repentance isn't necessary), I'll fold my argument right here. That's what we're discussing after all....the issue is: do we need to repent and stop sinning to recieve salvation? Or simply believe that Christ died for us and continue living sinfully?
I don't think Jesus would actually want any of us to chop off our arm.
Of course not....he was making a point that we should do everything we can to stop every part of us from sinning, in order to avoid eternal punishment. Jesus will save you, yes...but only once you leave your ways and follow him. If there's a part of you still clinging to the world (your mind, your heart...whatever)...then you need to do whatever you can to get it back on the right track!
Also, personally, I keep in mind who Jesus was talking to, and the circumstance and time.
That's good. Context is always important.
Basically, my problem with the view present, is that one the one hand you say it's all by grace, and on the other you're saying that we have to do this or that.
That's incorrect. I've never said it's "all by grace", or that it's all "this or that". What I
have said...is that you need to turn from wickedness in order to accept the grace that's being offered to you.
NOT turning from wickedness is the equivalent of NOT accepting the free gift God is offering you (whether or not you've "accepted" it in word)
Think of it like this:
You're playing video games. Your buddy walks up to you and says "hey...if you go for a ride with me, I'll buy you a burger". You can either:
a) Stop playing the game, go for the ride and get the burger
b) Keep playing the game and say "I don't want the burger"
c) Keep playing the game and say "sure...I'd like a burger"....at which point your friend will say "if you don't come for the ride, you're not getting a burger"
See the difference? In each scenario, the burger is still
completely free.....the only difference being that you can't do 2 things at once, and cannot therefore play video games AND get the burger.
The same is true (although not as contrived lol) with Christ. He died on the Cross, said "follow me and you'll get eternal life". You can either:
a) Follow Christ, leave your sinful ways and recieve salvation
b) Say, "no thanks".
c) Say "Ok...I want salvation, but I still want to be able to live sinfully...I see no reason to change my ways since the gift is free either way", at which point Jesus will say "if you don't drop your sinful lifestyle and follow me, I'm not going to save you!"
In all three situations, salvation is still "free". Jesus isn't saying "if you follow me you can earn your salvation"...he's saying, "follow me and I'll
give you salvation!" Biiiiig difference.
I hope that clears things up. As I've already stated....I don't believe in the "earning" of salvation one bit....what I
do believe, is that you can't recieve the gift that Christ is offering unless you let go of the ways of the world.
It's kind of like that old Aesop's fable (or whoever wrote it). The kid reaches into a jar full of figs, grabs a whole handful of them and tries to pull his hand out...but it won't fit. In the end, he can't get his hand out unless he lets go of the figs. It's a catch-22...he can't have both...only one or the other. The same is true for Christianity. You can't be a Christ-follower if you still want to follow the ways of the world. You can either follow the ways of the world and
not be a Christian, or follow Christ and
not live sinfully. It has nothing to do with "earning" one or the other....it simply deals with
pledging your allegiance to one or the other.
Make sense?
The fact that salvation comes by grace, received by faith, doesn't mean it's ok to sin, of course. But it does mean we have no hope outside of grace.
Correct! This is exactly what I've been trying to get at all along! We are saved by grace...but that does
not make it okay to sin....because we only recieve grace once we leave our sinful lives.
That being said....we
will fall...but as long as we get back up, repent, and continue striving for righteousness we have no worries! If, on the other hand, we
choose to fall
without repentance, we have turned our face on God and have
rejected his gift of grace!
