Music.

[holo]

Well...it was mainly Bono's language choices that led many of us to think that maybe he's just a Christian in word instead of deed.

And that's exactly the problem I have with a lot of christianity today.

I mean, I often find that people have vastly different requirements for being a christian vs. being saved, and it blows my mind and breaks my heart.

 

[ivanisavich]

And that's exactly the problem I have with a lot of christianity today.

I don't quite understand.....do you disagree with the idea that our lives should reflect our words? Or do you simply think that we're being too conservative in our Christian standards?

 

[ivanisavich]

Here's a quick question for ya (albeit cheesy):

Would Jesus drop the F-bomb? And/or...would he approve of you (or anyone) doing so?

 

[Buttermilk]

Well...it was mainly Bono's language choices that led many of us to think that maybe he's just a Christian in word instead of deed. Drinking/smoking isn't that big of an issue. ....but cussing to your heart's delight (especially in public when people look up to you) certainly is.

You have to understand that Bono (and myself for that matter since Scottish and Irish cultures are similar) comes from a different background to Americans.

Where we come from swearing is part of everyday culture. Most Christians I know swear and drink (and some even smoke ). As one of these who does drink and swear, I do not have a problem with Bono's "so called" behaviour. I think as a Christian he is more in touch with the people of today than the Christians who stand and mock him. - I know who I would be more willing to give the time of day to

 

[ivanisavich]

That is an interesting point you bring up....although it still doesn't justify the action. If an entire culture labels something as being "ok"...that doesn't make it ok

 

[holo]

I like the firendly tone of this thread.

I don't quite understand.....do you disagree with the idea that our lives should reflect our words? Or do you simply think that we're being too conservative in our Christian standards?[/font]

I do think we're being too conservative, or rather too cultural in our approach to both sinners and saints. For me, for example, it's perfectly natural to have a beer or two. What I like about Bono is that he's not pushing morality when he's talking about Jesus. He just says what he believes, that Jesus died for him.

As for myself, my lifes does reflect my words, since I don't think being a believer has anything to do with the word I use to emphasise things or the beverages I drink. Of course, these things differ with culture, but I think it's sad the way christianity seems to have gone from a relationship with Jesus to a set of norms and morals.

Here's a quick question for ya (albeit cheesy):

Would Jesus drop the F-bomb? And/or...would he approve of you (or anyone) doing so?

To be honest, I don't really like the WWJD thing. The point isn't what Jesus would do, it's what He has already done. Besides, I'm not Jesus. He lived in Israel two thousand years ago, I live in Norway today. Also, I don't think He kind of sits on His throne approving or disapproving of everything and anything I do. I think He just loves me and guides me. The whole (dis)approvement thing is kind of moot to me.

That being said, Jesus did use harsh words Himself.

That is an interesting point you bring up....although it still doesn't justify the action. If an entire culture labels something as being "ok"...that doesn't make it ok

Thats true. And it goes both ways - just because an entire culture labels it wrong doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[Buttermilk]

Could you specify?

Well first and foremost the words of the songs themselves. It's not exactly "cool and trendy" to sing about God and stuff - most secular bands would not be "caught dead" doing it, and yet here is a band who are overtly singing about God. IMHO you would not write stuff like that if you were not sincere about what you were writing about. The songs themselves don't just make passing mentions of God, they revolve around different biblical passages, and it would take someone who knows the Bible well to write them.

Secondly IMHO he was sincere as he sang the songs - now maybe that is because I am a musician myself and I am tapped into that wavelength - others may not feel the same way, some may even say it is all an act - but I don't agree - people don't pretend about these things IMHO (Performers do put on an act as I am all to aware, but they can be sincere at the same time).

Finally the general ambiance in the stadium was spiritual IMHO - again maybe that was just me because I was tapped into it.

The above is only my opinion, obviously I can't speak for the over 50,000 other people who were at the concert.

 

[ivanisavich]

I like the firendly tone of this thread.

I hope you're not being sarcastic...since I am trying to keep this a friendly discussion

For me, for example, it's perfectly natural to have a beer or two. What I like about Bono is that he's not pushing morality when he's talking about Jesus. He just says what he believes, that Jesus died for him.

And as stated earlier....drinking isn't the issue....it's mainly the way Bono conducts himself in public. Besides his own words...there's not a whole lot about him that screams "Christian"....and the Bible itself says we are to be known by our walk.

Of course, these things differ with culture, but I think it's sad the way christianity seems to have gone from a relationship with Jesus to a set of norms and morals.

You are partly correct (in the sense that Christianity isn't about legalism)...but....once you (not you in particular) do become a Christian you are to leave your sinful ways and live as Jesus lived. Remember....the sins we continue to commit as Christians (and non-Christians alike) are the same ones that Jesus was nailed to the cross for. That's something to think about. When a "Christian" makes little effort to live righteously (in all areas of their life!...both behind closed doors and in public)...it really doesn't reflect their "appreciation" for what Jesus did for them.

The point isn't what Jesus would do, it's what He has already done.

It is both. We are to remember what he did for us while stiving to live as he would.

He lived in Israel two thousand years ago, I live in Norway today.

The same types of sins and wrong actions have always existed...just in different forms. There was just as much drunkeness, swearing, stealing etc etc in Jesus' time as there was now (in fact...probably more back then)

Also, I don't think He kind of sits on His throne approving or disapproving of everything and anything I do. I think He just loves me and guides me. The whole (dis)approvement thing is kind of moot to me.)

He doesn't need to. On judgement day he will simply assess whether or not a person left their old sinful lifestyle and followed him, or not. Until then we have to use our own judegement to determine whether or not we are on the right track.

 

[holo]

I hope you're not being sarcastic...since I am trying to keep this a friendly discussion

I'm serious

And as stated earlier....drinking isn't the issue....it's mainly the way Bono conducts himself in public. Besides his own words...there's not a whole lot about him that screams "Christian"....and the Bible itself says we are to be known by our walk.

First of all, I don't know Bono too well, and certainly not personally, but let's use him as an example.

I agree, he doesn't scream "christian", and IMO that's actually a good thing - I think both believers and unbelivers need to see that it's about Jesus, not anything else.

You are partly correct (in the sense that Christianity isn't about legalism)...but....once you (not you in particular) do become a Christian you are to leave your sinful ways and live as Jesus lived. Remember....the sins we continue to commit as Christians (and non-Christians alike) are the same ones that Jesus was nailed to the cross for. That's something to think about. When a "Christian" makes little effort to live righteously (in all areas of their life!...both behind closed doors and in public)...it really doesn't reflect their "appreciation" for what Jesus did for them.

I agree that people's efforts to live righteously may reflect their love of Jesus, but I think many times it's just a sign of fear - they fear Jesus' sacrifice wasn't in fact enough.

And yes, Jesus died for all our sins. But I think it's sad when people believe that I somehow hurt God by using cuss words, and that Jesus had to pay for every time I say the f-word or anything like that. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I think it (salvation, the cross) goes much broader and deeper than that.

btw, from the first sentence in this quote I get the feeling that grace is more than enough for the sinner, but not the saved person. I don't know if you believe that, but a lot of people actually do - it's clear through their actions and attitudes.

The same types of sins and wrong actions have always existed...just in different forms. There was just as much drunkeness, swearing, stealing etc etc in Jesus' time as there was now (in fact...probably more back then)

Maybe so, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. But in light of that, it's even more telling that Jesus was called a friend of sinners, a glutton and a drunkard. According to a lot of people's standards then, He probably was!

He doesn't need to. On judgement day he will simply assess whether or not a person left their old sinful lifestyle and followed him, or not. Until then we have to use our own judegement to determine whether or not we are on the right track.

If you're implying that our eternity (where we spend it) is determined by this, I most respectfully disagree. I think salvation has nothing to do with works, but only what Jesus did - believing it, accepting it.

 

[Buttermilk]

And as stated earlier....drinking isn't the issue....it's mainly the way Bono conducts himself in public. Besides his own words...there's not a whole lot about him that screams "Christian"....and the Bible itself says we are to be known by our walk.

And er........reading the Bible and praying regularly and campaigning for the world's most vulnerable people as per the Bible doesn't scream "Christian" ...........

He doesn't need to. On judgement day he will simply assess whether or not a person left their old sinful lifestyle and followed him, or not. Until then we have to use our own judegement to determine whether or not we are on the right track.

You are right God is my judge and only God, not any self-righteous Christian (and I am not implying that anyone here is a self-righteous Christian )

If God thinks my (or holo or Bono or whoever's) behaviour is wrong he will convict me (us) that that is the case, and I am sure we would change.

 

[ivanisavich]

I agree, he doesn't scream "christian", and IMO that's actually a good thing - I think both believers and unbelivers need to see that it's about Jesus, not anything else.

You are correct! But as Christians we need to mirror Christ's actions in our own lifestyles...so people can see that it's only about Jesus. If I tell people that playing chess is the most important thing in the world....but don't play it myself...what good is that? We are to set examples for others through our own lives.

I agree that people's efforts to live righteously may reflect their love of Jesus, but I think many times it's just a sign of fear - they fear Jesus' sacrifice wasn't in fact enough.

Christians should be living righteously because they want to...not because they have to. But it's a catch-22 that a lot of people don't like though....because living right is a part of being a Christian. If a person doesn't leave their "old" ways and turn to righteous living they're not a Christ-follower (and therefore will not recieve his grace). ....but if a person lives a great life yet doesn't follow Christ....they're not going to recieve his grace either. Many people want to lean completely to either side (ie....only "believing" or only "living right"....but in reality a Christians life has to include both of those actions)

And yes, Jesus died for all our sins. But I think it's sad when people believe that I somehow hurt God by using cuss words, and that Jesus had to pay for every time I say the f-word or anything like that. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I think it (salvation, the cross) goes much broader and deeper than that.

You are correct. I never once stated that every time we sin we're "driving another nail into the cross" (as some people believe). But Jesus did die for our sins...and therefore not making an effort to cease sinning is pretty much the equivalent to turning your back on what Christ did.

btw, from the first sentence in this quote I get the feeling that grace is more than enough for the sinner, but not the saved person. I don't know if you believe that, but a lot of people actually do - it's clear through their actions and attitudes.

As I mentioned above already, grace is what was given to us, yes....but in order for us to recieve it, we must change our ways and follow Christ. Once again...the catch-22...you can't do one or the other...you must do both.

Maybe so, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. But in light of that, it's even more telling that Jesus was called a friend of sinners, a glutton and a drunkard. According to a lot of people's standards then, He probably was!

I reeeealllly hope you're being sarcastic about this one!

I think salvation has nothing to do with works, but only what Jesus did - believing it, accepting it.

Salvation was given to us freely through grace alone, yes. But, in order for us to accept the salvation that is offered to each and every one of us, we must turn from our sinful ways and follow Christ. I know I've stated this about 16 times....but it can never be said enough

As I mentioned before....even Satan himself "believes and accepts" that Jesus died for all sins. There is more to salvation than simply "admitting" that yes, we believe Jesus died for us. That will get you nowhere unless you are also willing to pledge your allegiance to Christ. There is a HUGE difference!

Anywho...I look forward to your response as usual

 

[ivanisavich]

And er........reading the Bible and praying regularly and campaigning for the world's most vulnerable people as per the Bible doesn't scream "Christian" ...........

Hence the whole argument about him being a Christian. On one hand he's a world leader when it comes to national peace and poverty etc etc..."reading his Bible" and whatever else....yet on the other hand he's swearing without biting his tongue and doing all sorts of other disagreeable things in public.

The argument is not based around the fact that he does some things considered "sinful". Heck...I screw up every day myself (as we all do). The argument is based around the fact that he doesn't seem to make it a priority to work on his public image (ie....he hasn't shown any signs of thinking that his actions are wrong)

Overall...I'm not trying to do my own "detective" work to figure out if someone is a Christian or not....I'm simply trying to stress the fact that if someone does follow Christ...their actions should be louder than their words (no pun intended, in the case of Bono)...because a major part of a Christian lifestyle is striving for righteousness and Christ-like-ness

If God thinks my (or holo or Bono or whoever's) behaviour is wrong he will convict me (us) that that is the case, and I am sure we would change.

That is a dangerous path to go down. If that were true, everyone in the world would be a conservative Christian

 

[Buttermilk]

he's swearing without biting his tongue

So do I so where does that leave me?

 

[holo]

You are correct! But as Christians we need to mirror Christ's actions in our own lifestyles...so people can see that it's only about Jesus. If I tell people that playing chess is the most important thing in the world....but don't play it myself...what good is that? We are to set examples for others through our own lives.

I agree. I think Bono is being a good example. He obviously loves people, that's why he's making an effort to influence peace talks, environmental issues and the like. Also, he cares about all the people who reject Jesus because they associate Him with christianity.

Christians should be living righteously because they want to...not because they have to. But it's a catch-22 that a lot of people don't like though....because living right is a part of being a Christian. If a person doesn't leave their "old" ways and turn to righteous living they're not a Christ-follower (and therefore will not recieve his grace). ....but if a person lives a great life yet doesn't follow Christ....they're not going to recieve his grace either. Many people want to lean completely to either side (ie....only "believing" or only "living right"....but in reality a Christians life has to include both of those actions)

I agree that righetous living should come voluntaritly. In fact, I think it's natural for anyone who relies on Jesus. However, I disagree that people won't recieve His grace unless they "follow" Christ, if you by that mean that we, say, don't swear or commit adultery. Because that would mean it's not grace, but pay.
Grace is there, free for us to accept, but it's not something we get because we somehow deserve it. It's illogical, I think it's the greates falsehood that has ever entered christianity, and I think it's very far from what God intended.

You are correct. I never once stated that every time we sin we're "driving another nail into the cross" (as some people believe). But Jesus did die for our sins...and therefore not making an effort to cease sinning is pretty much the equivalent to turning your back on what Christ did.

Personally, I don't make much of an effort, yet I live more "righteously" by the day. I believe it's because I simply spend time with Jesus and He influences me. Also, I believe that doing something for God is pretty much the opposite of accepting what HE did for US. I mean, even the good works I do are prepared by Him beforehand. It's not like I can make an effort that would be somehow good enough for God.

As I mentioned above already, grace is what was given to us, yes....but in order for us to recieve it, we must change our ways and follow Christ. Once again...the catch-22...you can't do one or the other...you must do both.

And I still disagree

I can't see how that would still be grace. I can't see how recieving a free gift should depend on my living up to some demand first. On the other hand, to recieve this gift (or to make use of it), I had to in fact stop trying to change my ways - the more we try to change our ways, the less we let the Lord change our ways, if you know what I mean.

I reeeealllly hope you're being sarcastic about this one!

Actually, I'm serious. I believe that people did in fact think He was too fond of good drink - after all He did turn water into wine. He was called a friend of sinners because He was. He ate and drank and enjoyed life. I'm sure a lot of christian would have gone mad, had Jesus come to today and they'd seen him in a pub.

Salvation was given to us freely through grace alone, yes. But, in order for us to accept the salvation that is offered to each and every one of us, we must turn from our sinful ways and follow Christ. I know I've stated this about 16 times....but it can never be said enough

And again, I don't think it can be said enough that that's NOT the case - I think it's exactly this way of thinking that still keeps a lot of christians in a position where they assume they can judge others, and just as many are living as losers since they can't seem to change their ways and live according to the moral standards of the church.

I'm not basing this on bible study or theology, but rather on personal experience. God has changed me, and is still changing me, beyond what anyone had thouth possible. I haven't "repented" or "turned from" my drug addiction, yet He has made me drug free. I don't even want drugs anymore. Likewise with hate, for example. If I had anything to do with it, it was only my desire for help, my need to know God. I started seeking Him out, He took care of the changing.
However, when I still did think in the manner that you seem to lay out here, I was invariably reduced to a moral failure.

 

[ivanisavich]

So do I so where does that leave me?

a) by "biting his tongue" I was making a figure of speech referring to the idea that we should be catching ourselves when we sin, and should be striving to stop from falling again even if we do (ie...when it comes to language we are instructed to watch what we say....and in Bono's case, since he's a major public figure he should be watching himself all that much more)

b) You tell me.

 

[Buttermilk]

b) You tell me.

It leaves me as a Christian who swears and drinks

 

[ivanisavich]

I agree. I think Bono is being a good example. He obviously loves people, that's why he's making an effort to influence peace talks, environmental issues and the like. Also, he cares about all the people who reject Jesus because they associate Him with christianity.

And I agree with you partly again, but without making an effort to change his ways in the other areas of his life where he may fall, he's no more a Christian than Ghandi.

Once again though...I'm not trying to judge and point fingers. For all I know Bono is struggling with the language thing in his personal life and is trying to improve...which I think would be great and good for him! ...but so far the image he makes for himself in public does not give me the impression that that's the case. And as a "Christian" who is incredibly influencial to many people...maintaining a Christian witness in public should be one of his number one priorities....and yet it just doesn't seem like that's the case.

I'm going to finish off there though when it comes to Bono...we've both been able to get our opinions across and I respect how you feel about the situation

I agree that righetous living should come voluntaritly. In fact, I think it's natural for anyone who relies on Jesus. However, I disagree that people won't recieve His grace unless they "follow" Christ, if you by that mean that we, say, don't swear or commit adultery.

So where do you draw the line then? According to that model...I could "become a Christian" and then go on a shootout at a local school, after which my salvation would still be intact?

Once again....no where have I said we need to do good things in order to "achieve" our salvation. We simply do good works in order to show that we've pledged our allegiance to Christ, have died to our sinful ways and are now striving to live a righteous life which we are commanded to do.

Grace is there, free for us to accept, but it's not something we get because we somehow deserve it. It's illogical, I think it's the greates falsehood that has ever entered christianity, and I think it's very far from what God intended.

That is true! But if we don't also follow Christ when we reach the "pearly gates" he's simply going to look away and say "I never knew you". Didn't Jesus himself tell people to leave their sinful lifestyles and follow him? How much clearer can a statement be? It's right from the man himself!

Personally, I don't make much of an effort, yet I live more "righteously" by the day. I believe it's because I simply spend time with Jesus and He influences me.

Great! I'm glad to hear it!

Also, I believe that doing something for God is pretty much the opposite of accepting what HE did for US. I mean, even the good works I do are prepared by Him beforehand. It's not like I can make an effort that would be somehow good enough for God.

That's right, you can't. Hence grace. But you won't recieve that grace until you turn from wickedness. Certainly you'll fall again....but the difference is that now you'll be making an effort not to.

It's not that God has a big "point system" up in heaven or something. You're either living a sinful lifestyle without repentace, or you've turned from that lifestyle and are striving from righteousness. Just as "Bono" might be struggling to live righteously (as all Christians are and should be), the crack addict in the street who's accepted Jesus and is trying to break the addiction is then living righteously as well.

It's all in the mindset. Either you're striving to leave your sinful ways or you're not...it has nothing to do with one person commiting less sin than another.

Actually, I'm serious. I believe that people did in fact think He was too fond of good drink - after all He did turn water into wine. He was called a friend of sinners because He was. He ate and drank and enjoyed life. I'm sure a lot of christian would have gone mad, had Jesus come to today and they'd seen him in a pub.

I fully agree that Jesus hung out with the sinners....it's stated in the Bible and is not an issue....but to say that Jesus was sinning with the sinners is pretty much blasphemy! (and that's what you're original post seemed to state)

I'm not basing this on bible study or theology, but rather on personal experience. God has changed me, and is still changing me, beyond what anyone had thouth possible.

Once again, that's great! And you've proved my point exactly. Whether or not you attribute your change to God, or to your own will....you've change (yet still haven't "earned" your salvation). Do you see what I'm saying?

Now...if you walked up to me and told me that yesterday you became a Christian, and today you stole a TV and killed three people, I'd have my second thoughts. Do you see what I'm saying? It has nothing to do with earning salvation...it has everything to do with leaving your sinful lifestyle!

That's all for now ...I hope I'm making some sense

 

[ivanisavich]

It leaves me as a Christian who swears and drinks

And that's cool and I respect that! Once again...lol...drinking isn't an issue .....swearing on the other hand is something we're told not to do (there's no "thou shalt not say ****"....but we are told to hold our tongues if something good isn't about to come out of it )...but as long as you realize that, and are making an effort to stop it or at least tone it down (the first step to stopping)...you're good to go

Remember, from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Saying a certain word is completely arbitrary to whatever culture you live in and whatever language you speak. I could walk up to someone in China and scream whatever bad word I wanted to and they probably would have no idea what I'm saying....but emotions and intents are universal, and that's what God looks at....your heart

 

[ivanisavich]

Btw...I don't want to point anyone out. I'm just as "bad" as the lot of ya!

And that's why as Christian brothers and sisters we need to continually pick each other up and carry each other on our shoulders, because the road is tough and it is narrow...and it's our human nature to want and need feedback and support!

After all....we're all in this together!...no matter how cheesy it may sound....as Christians, we need to do this "life" thing as a team!

 

[holo]

And I agree with you partly again, but without making an effort to change his ways in the other areas of his life where he may fall, he's no more a Christian than Ghandi.

I wish "christian" would just mean "forgiven", someone who believes. That seems to be more to the point than the common notion that a christian is someone who does this and that.

So where do you draw the line then? According to that model...I could "become a Christian" and then go on a shootout at a local school, after which my salvation would still be intact?

Well, I don't draw a line, actually. I don't think you going on a shootout would cost you your salvation - that would actually mean that it does in fact come by works.

Once again....no where have I said we need to do good things in order to "achieve" our salvation. We simply do good works in order to show that we've pledged our allegiance to Christ, have died to our sinful ways and are now striving to live a righteous life which we are commanded to do.

I understand, but if you boil it down, don't you really think that salvation is somehow earned, too? You mentioned shooting people, so let's use that for an example: if you did that, would you lose your salvation? And if so, if you controlled yourself and didn't shoot anyone, doesn't that mean that your very salvation depends in fact on what you do?

That is true! But if we don't also follow Christ when we reach the "pearly gates" he's simply going to look away and say "I never knew you". Didn't Jesus himself tell people to leave their sinful lifestyles and follow him? How much clearer can a statement be? It's right from the man himself!

I'm not so sure I hold to that interpretation. If I remember correctly, those people were in fact trying to get in by referring to their works.

Yes, of course people should leave their sinful lifestyles. Life is a walk, God wants everybody to be saved and to walk through life straight and tall. I may crawl or walk on my hands and mess it up, but I'll get there.

That's right, you can't. Hence grace. But you won't recieve that grace until you turn from wickedness. Certainly you'll fall again....but the difference is that now you'll be making an effort not to.

I think the difference is that now we are saved, clean, righteous. And I'm still not really making an effort at much, and certainly not at pleasing God. I don't try to love people, for example, I simply let Him do it through me. It's taken me a long time to start realizing that I can trust God in this way, and that I don't have to live up to this or that first.
Because that's what salvation is all about, that Jesus already did it. I didn't have to turn from anything but trying to make it on my own. That was the wickedness that kept me down, it wasn't the drugs and all those things.

I sometimes see it like this; sometimes we fall because we run as fast as we can, thinking it's all up to us. Other times we fall because we fall asleep on the chair - we don't dare do anything without faith, without signs, trying to elevate ourselves from the floor where sin crawls like mice.

I've stopped doing that kind of thing. I walk now, I stroll through life. My feet are on the ground, as they should be. They get dirty, that's why Jesus will wash them when it's needed. I don't struggle or try, I walk. Because I'm already saved. I'm already worthy, clean, righteous, a saint in fact.

It's not that God has a big "point system" up in heaven or something. You're either living a sinful lifestyle without repentace, or you've turned from that lifestyle and are striving from righteousness. Just as "Bono" might be struggling to live righteously (as all Christians are and should be), the crack addict in the street who's accepted Jesus and is trying to break the addiction is then living righteously as well.

All I know is that Jesus IS my righteousness. He is now, and He was when I was still stoned out of my mind and looking at porn and cursing my parents.

It's all in the mindset. Either you're striving to leave your sinful ways or you're not...it has nothing to do with one person commiting less sin than another.

I agree that it's in the mindset. You can consider yourself worthy or unworthy, forgiven or unforgiven, righteous or unrighteous. It makes a HUGE difference. God freed me from a lot of bad stuff while I was still seeing myself as a loser, but it didn't really take off until I realized that I am in fact 100% His child, regardless of whether I'm drunk or doing anything else that would be bad in any way. I see salvation as my identity - I can't strive to be my father's son. I simply am, therefore I can live according to that fact.

I fully agree that Jesus hung out with the sinners....it's stated in the Bible and is not an issue....but to say that Jesus was sinning with the sinners is pretty much blasphemy! (and that's what you're original post seemed to state)

No, Jesus didn't sin, but I'm sure that if a lot of today's christians had been around back then, they would have thought He did.

Once again, that's great! And you've proved my point exactly. Whether or not you attribute your change to God, or to your own will....you've change (yet still haven't "earned" your salvation). Do you see what I'm saying?

I think I do.
And I think I understand it. It's much like the way I used to think myself. But now I don't think my own efforts and works come into play at any time in my walk with the Lord.