Murder by prayer ?

[TeutonKnight]

Parents 'murdered daughter by prayer' - Times Online

An American couple have been convicted of murder for praying for their 11-year -old dauther's healing rather than seeking medical help. When Madeline Neumann collapsed from undiagnosed diabetes, eher parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, began to prayer for God to intervene and save their daughter. They refused to call an ambulance. Dale Neuman is a former student of a Pentecostal Bible college. He and his wife will be sentenced in October.

 

[Brieuse]

It's sort of like when someone falls out a boat and is drowning, so starts praying to God for help. God sends somebody with a lifejack, but the drowning fool refuses it believing God will save him.

 

[TeutonKnight]

It's sort of like when someone falls out a boat and is drowning, so starts praying to God for help. God sends somebody with a lifejack, but the drowning fool refuses it believing God will save him.

Hi Brieuse

I agree and the other thing of course is that you are not supposed to Test God.

 

[Washington]

"Second-degree murder

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter."

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The finding sounds reasonable.

 

[MoonLancer]

It's sort of like when someone falls out a boat and is drowning, so starts praying to God for help. God sends somebody with a lifejack, but the drowning fool refuses it believing God will save him.

i think many people just ascribe causality that works in their favor as acts of "God" but very rarely when causality fails to work the their favor.

If God effected causality, this could be tested. So far he still operates within the fluctuation of the sugar pill.

if God only does what i can already do for myself, why do i need him again?

 

[keith99]

It's sort of like when someone falls out a boat and is drowning, so starts praying to God for help. God sends somebody with a lifejack, but the drowning fool refuses it believing God will save him.

This reminds me of a rather old story with a flood. A man is told to evacuate, he declines bacause the Lord will provide. When he is trapped and the waters rising a boat comes by and offers him a place. Again he declines for the same reason. As the waters keep rising a second boat offers assistance. Again he declines.

When he is dead he asks God why he did not help. Gods reply start...

Three times I sent my servants...

 

[keith99]

"Second-degree murder

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter."

source
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The finding sounds reasonable.

I somewhat agree. I'm not sure that manslaughter is not the more reasonable charge.

However in either case the charge has little to do with the prayer, the charge has to do with the failure to provide basic medical care.

 

[Ryal Kane]

I wouldn't say it's murder but it's certainly negligence causing death. (I don't know the precise legal terms and differences between NZ and US)

What always stikes me as sadly amusing about these cases is that if the couple had claimed they were trying to use Cure Critical Wounds spells or alien technology, everyone would think they were crazy but religion seems to get a free pass.

 

[Brieuse]

I wouldn't say it's murder but it's certainly negligence causing death. (I don't know the precise legal terms and differences between NZ and US)

What always stikes me as sadly amusing about these cases is that if the couple had claimed they were trying to use Cure Critical Wounds spells or alien technology, everyone would think they were crazy but religion seems to get a free pass.

Not in this case. Everybody seems to think they are crazy, and now Christianity in general has been put in a bad light. Again.

 

[nolongerhome]

"Second-degree murder

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter."

source
​

The finding sounds reasonable.

I don't know...

This wasn't an intentional killing, premeditated or not, so the first definition is out.

The second definition requires dangerous conduct, and I think it is clear that not providing necessary medical care is dangerous conduct, but it also requires an "obvious lack of concern for human life" - I don't think that that is necessarily the case here.

I would say this seems to me to be more a case of involuntary manslaughter, or occasioning death through negligence.

I think it is a tragic story. I think there is clearly something mentally deficient in the parents. I don't think they are murderers, I don't think they wanted their child to die, but they are clearly responsible for the death and chose not to do something that would have given the child a chance to live. I feel sorry for the child, but I feel sorry for the parents about as much as that too.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Not in this case. Everybody seems to think they are crazy, and now Christianity in general has been put in a bad light. Again.

Agreed. Apologies if it came across as derogatory. Cases like this make me much more sad than angry.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

For me, it doesn't matter what the courts decided. These parents should never be allowed to have children ever again, nor should chidlren be allowed to say within their care of any capacity.

 

[Dysnomia]

Whatever happened to the gods help those who help themselves? If medicine and technology was never meant to be used by man then wouldn't the Bible have said something to that effect?

These parents were just mind-bogglingly stupid--their actions are tantamount to saying "We don't have to be parents because God will do it for us" which is just insulting. I could say I don't have to study for the GRE because the gods will pass it for me.

That being said, I don't think their other kids should be taken away, but have a social worker assigned to the family. Let the kids get yearly check-ups (like every other family does that I know) and forward the findings to the case worker, who has to know the health of the children anyway. The parents can accept or deny whatever they want as it applies to themselves.

 

[MoonLancer]

Whatever happened to the gods help those who help themselves? If medicine and technology was never meant to be used by man then wouldn't the Bible have said something to that effect?

God is silent on a lot of issues, but in the bible explicitly says if you pray for something it WILL happen. the folly in this story is actually believing this is the case. Many Christians take life into there own hands, not gods. They simply ascribe favorable causality to god. this is a case of putting life in gods hands. Silence.

 

[MoonLancer]

dp

 

[corvus_corax]

Whatever happened to the gods help those who help themselves?

"God helps those who help themselves" is not found in the Bible

If medicine and technology was never meant to be used by man then wouldn't the Bible have said something to that effect?

Actually the bible does deal, directly, with how to deal with sickness.

And it's by prayer, not technology or doctors..

Although what these people did was reprehensible, it is at least somewhat biblical.

 

[Mling]

I don't really think of this as murder by prayer.

It's murder by medical neglect. Parents have a duty to keep their children healthy as best they can. If you neglect your kids medical needs and they become sick as a result, you've killed them. That it was prayer this time is...incidental. I don't think it's any different than those few people who starve newborns to death by trying to feed them a low-fat vegan diet.

 

[Philothei]

Where in the Bible you see to say that you are not to visit a doctor? Or not to trust science? We are to obey the law of the land. Christ did say to give to Ceasar that is what belongs to him and obey the laws of the land. According to that these people were disobedient to the commandment of Christ. You cannot neglect your child because of religion. The common law of the land has to be obeyed. But fanaticism does not belong only to religious spectrum. Many nationalists do sacrificed their children for their beliefs. A look into Africa and one can see where parents do not hesitte to give a gun to minors and send them to fight off the other tribe... Tribal wars are not based on religion
And I agree this is not murder by prayer. On the contrary those poor souls thought that they do not "need" anything else than prayer..... I agree with Mling... Vegans or any "Lactation Nazi" can starve his child to death if they become extremely fanatical.... It is a pity And the state should take time to evaluate them as I do believe that it has to do with the fact the parents might have suffered emotional or mental problems.. .Sad....

 

[MoonLancer]

Christ also says if you pray to god for something to happen, It WILL happen. So by saying one cannot simply pray for good health, your also saying the bible and Christ is wrong.

 

[Philothei]

I did not say that ...where did I say that? I said that prayer or dispite of prayer one has to obey the law of the land. Of course we can pray for good health. Our faith does commands us to be putting our trust in God. Christ says if one of you get sick have the priest to come and pray over him.... But he does not say ONLY do that ...He never said do not have medical threatement on him..... People interpret the Bible any way they like/want...so the confusion starts about interpretation.