Murder by prayer ?

[Beanieboy]

I somewhat agree. I'm not sure that manslaughter is not the more reasonable charge.

However in either case the charge has little to do with the prayer, the charge has to do with the failure to provide basic medical care.

I agree with this. I know that some denominations, like Christian Scientists, believe that illness is an illusion, just like our bodies, and that one can be prayed out of sickness, by convincing the person that the sickness isn't real.

That seems extreme, but most lay christians don't really believe that prayer apart from medical intervention can heal a person either, yet believe that it was done in the bible.

It seems that the most common sense would be to pray over the person, and if the person doesn't get well, to seek medical attention. However, if the person is in a life or death situation and needs immediate help, bringing them to the hospital and praying for them while you wait seems to also be a no brainer.

 

[The Nihilist]

I did not say that ...where did I say that? I said that prayer or dispite of prayer one has to obey the law of the land. Of course we can pray for good health. Our faith does commands us to be putting our trust in God. Christ says if one of you get sick have the priest to come and pray over him.... But he does not say ONLY do that ...He never said do not have medical threatement on him..... People interpret the Bible any way they like/want...so the confusion starts about interpretation.

Don't you know that if you have faith that is only the size of a mustard seed (which is tiny,) then you can say to a mountain "pick yourself up and throw yourself into the sea!" and it will happen? Because if not, you should spend more time with your bibble.

 

[MoonLancer]

I did not say that ...where did I say that? I said that prayer or dispite of prayer one has to obey the law of the land. Of course we can pray for good health. Our faith does commands us to be putting our trust in God. Christ says if one of you get sick have the priest to come and pray over him.... But he does not say ONLY do that ...He never said do not have medical threatement on him..... People interpret the Bible any way they like/want...so the confusion starts about interpretation.

is there a noticeable difference between someone who prays to god and gets health care vs those who just get health care? surly this would be observable.

 

[Philothei]

Don't you know that if you have faith that is only the size of a mustard seed (which is tiny,) then you can say to a mountain "pick yourself up and throw yourself into the sea!" and it will happen? Because if not, you should spend more time with your bibble.

Nope that is not founded on the bible at all... Nowhere it says that seeking our healing outside of the community is not allowed. It just says that the priest is to be called in. That does not excludes physicians....Luke was a doctor you think he did not use his knowldegde to heal people? I think he did. It did not "contradict" his wordly profession. We have many saints who were also doctors in the EO church.... They used their talent/ knowledge to the glory of God they did not give it up... Most of them were unmercenaries that is they did not even took money for their services... That right there disproves that belief...

 

[Philothei]

is there a noticeable difference between someone who prays to god and gets health care vs those who just get health care? surly this would be observable.

From the surveys I have seen done there is a noticable improvment on health. i have personally experienced the benefit of others praying for me when I could not take any more pain killers. The pain did ease while others prayed. Now of course some will call that effect symptomatic.... lol... Well most surveys are done in hospitals and they are are conducted by doctors whose affiliation is not even religious....

 

[The Nihilist]

Nope that is not founded on the bible at all... Nowhere it says that seeking our healing outside of the community is not allowed. It just says that the priest is to be called in. That does not excludes physicians....Luke was a doctor you think he did not use his knowldegde to heal people? I think he did. It did not "contradict" his wordly profession. We have many saints who were also doctors in the EO church.... They used their talent/ knowledge to the glory of God they did not give it up... Most of them were unmercenaries that is they did not even took money for their services... That right there disproves that belief...

Matthew 17:19-20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, 'Why could we not cast it out?' He said to them, 'Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." Luke 17:5-6 "The apostles said to the Lord, 'Increase our faith!' The Lord replied. 'If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.'"

 

[Philothei]

Nope that is twisting the verses to say whatever you want them to say. Christ in the above verse is talking about faith about anything...in this case it was a deamon. And yeah we are allowed as Christians to be weak in faith. Not everyone had faith to move mountains or they would have done so. Christ is urging us not condemning us. also when Peter could not cross the sea and was sinking Chirst rebuked him but did went to help him to bring him back to the boat. Christ was aware of our weak nature about having a stronger faith... Still He didi not condemn us, or then we are all weak and condemned and thus proven not to be Christians? Your paradigm is void of any substance.. Christ also said that we are adulteous generation... yet he did die for us ...your point???

 

[The Nihilist]

Nope that is twisting the verses to say whatever you want them to say. Christ in the above verse is talking about faith about anything...in this case it was a deamon. And yeah we are allowed as Christians to be weak in faith. Not everyone had faith to move mountains or they would have done so. Christ is urging us not condemning us. also when Peter could not cross the sea and was sinking Chirst rebuked him but did went to help him to bring him back to the boat. Christ was aware of our weak nature about having a stronger faith... Still He didi not condemn us, or then we are all weak and condemned and thus proven not to be Christians? Your paradigm is void of any substance.. Christ also said that we are adulteous generation... yet he did die for us ...your point???

I'm not really sure how that's a response to what I said.
My point is that the bible repeatedly says that if you have faith, you can more or less perform miracles. There are plenty of examples of people healing and being healed through faith. The couple's actions as cited in the OP are ABSOLUTELY in line with the bible, at least if you want to take the bible seriously.

 

[Philothei]

so you are asserting that all christians from Christ's time until now have been healed solemely on prayer alone? ok. then show me where Christ says in the Bible that we are commanded to ONLY trust in prayer and we will be healed ALONE. where in the bible it says that doctors are not needed....

 

[tansy]

I'm not really sure how that's a response to what I said.
My point is that the bible repeatedly says that if you have faith, you can more or less perform miracles. There are plenty of examples of people healing and being healed through faith. The couple's actions as cited in the OP are ABSOLUTELY in line with the bible, at least if you want to take the bible seriously.

I would tentatively say that there are different kinds or levels of faith.

For example, I would not have faith that if I asked God for the tree over the road to be uprooted, that He would do it, or it would happen...simply because, unless there were a good reason for that to happen, God would not respond. I do think that God may respond, if the tree is a danger or hazard and the locsl authority refuses to cut it down. But I would pray and see what God wanted in the matter.
The way I see it is that we read scripture to know what God's general character and will is, and for specific things we pray and God shows us what is the best thing to do...that may require direct action from us or not. Sometimes He''ll just say in effect, let things be. This isnt the whole of what faith is or means, just a little of how I see it.
I think that in an emergency for example, start praying whilst reaching for the phone to dial 999 - God may give you certain instruction, though personally I think it highly unlikely that He would stop you taking a child to hospital...however there may be other things He might show you or say to you about the situation. I don't think one can just 'drum up' faith that God will do a certain thing in response to your prayers....He can see the whole picture of what's going on, and what the best thing is.
I could give you a couple of real-life examples, but dont want to post them here in case the persons concerned recognise them, if they belong to this site (though I suppose that's unlikely)

 

[Philothei]

It is not about taking the Bible seriously but taking the Bible litereraly... And we do not. As Chsrist does not ever say to not go to the physicians. He "urges" us to trust God and our faith. Otherwise he would condemn Peter for being having little faith and not taking him to be his disciple if he expected "perfect" faith then I already proved to you that in practice and in the Bible's words (namely chist's) that is not what the couple's decision was based on. Their faith was "blind" faith in something that in the Gospel is metioned but they took it literally. Christ was not opossed to science the same as the Apostles or Paul would not mention that famous" a bit of wine during the meal is good for the digestion" I forgot where it is but once can google it... His friend was Luke who was a physician himself and no wonder he mentions it in there... I do not see the "stance" of this couple in tune with the spirit of the scripture at all.

 

[Maren]

so you are asserting that all christians from Christ's time until now have been healed solemely on prayer alone? ok. then show me where Christ says that this what he is saying I asked before where in the Bible it says we are commanded to ONLY trust in prayer and we will be healed ALONE. where in the bible it says that doctors are not needed....

I have to admit, if you read Christ's instructions in Matthew 10 where he is sending the apostles out and tells them not to worry about money and to only take one set of clothing, I can see where some might read that God will take care of them. Of course, if the Pentecostal minister had any type of bank account, owned or paid rent on a home, etc. he wouldn't seem to be living up to that belief.

 

[Philothei]

I have to admit, if you read Christ's instructions in Matthew 10 where he is sending the apostles out and tells them not to worry about money and to only take one set of clothing, I can see where some might read that God will take care of them. Of course, if the Pentecostal minister had any type of bank account, owned or paid rent on a home, etc. he wouldn't seem to be living up to that belief.

Yes we are commanded to have full trust but it is not a burden to our salvation.... If that couple seeked out medical help they would not be asked why they did not trust in their faith.... Excatly... if he did have a mortage a car and not a donkey then I think he pretty much knew what the bible was NOT talking about. And his failure to do so was IMHO a distortion of the truth of the Gospel. In my humble opinion I am not sure of the emotional or mental state of one or both parents. Who in his right mind would not take his child to a physician accompaniying it with prayers? That is why it is so bazzar.. because it is not the norm of what a crhistian parent would do with common sense
All these "sects" that believe in no medical interference are just that sects that are a deviation of the mainstream Christian dogma and beliefs. So when we say Christian we have to qualify... and to be more precise it has to do with individual people.... Sadly they exist in all ideological layers from all religious backgrounds from extreme vegans to lactation Nazis.....

 

[MoonLancer]

From the surveys I have seen done there is a noticable improvment on health. i have personally experienced the benefit of others praying for me when I could not take any more pain killers. The pain did ease while others prayed. Now of course some will call that effect symptomatic.... lol... Well most surveys are done in hospitals and they are are conducted by doctors whose affiliation is not even religious....

can you provide the surveys

 

[Philothei]

That would be off topic to the this thread and to this forum... touching upon a GA thread. Sorry Moon

 

[tansy]

That would be off topic to the this thread and to this forum... touching upon a GA thread. Sorry Moon

Couldnt you pm him with that info then?

 

[The Nihilist]

so you are asserting that all christians from Christ's time until now have been healed solemely on prayer alone? ok. then show me where Christ says in the Bible that we are commanded to ONLY trust in prayer and we will be healed ALONE. where in the bible it says that doctors are not needed....

Look, you can address what I've said, or you can address stuff that you made up that you're pretending I said. Let me know what you decide.

But my point is that the couple cited in the OP performed biblically legitimate actions.

 

[The Nihilist]

I would tentatively say that there are different kinds or levels of faith.

For example, I would not have faith that if I asked God for the tree over the road to be uprooted, that He would do it, or it would happen...simply because, unless there were a good reason for that to happen, God would not respond. I do think that God may respond, if the tree is a danger or hazard and the locsl authority refuses to cut it down. But I would pray and see what God wanted in the matter.
The way I see it is that we read scripture to know what God's general character and will is, and for specific things we pray and God shows us what is the best thing to do...that may require direct action from us or not. Sometimes He''ll just say in effect, let things be. This isnt the whole of what faith is or means, just a little of how I see it.
I think that in an emergency for example, start praying whilst reaching for the phone to dial 999 - God may give you certain instruction, though personally I think it highly unlikely that He would stop you taking a child to hospital...however there may be other things He might show you or say to you about the situation. I don't think one can just 'drum up' faith that God will do a certain thing in response to your prayers....He can see the whole picture of what's going on, and what the best thing is.
I could give you a couple of real-life examples, but dont want to post them here in case the persons concerned recognise them, if they belong to this site (though I suppose that's unlikely)

You don't believe in miracles?

 

[Philothei]

According to the OP yes they justify it but it is not justified according to the majority of christians or then why would not the majority practice that and never go to the doctors? Historically i evidenced it to you and also biblically you never came up with any proof that Chist denies medical suport Nihilist so your call since you are the one suporting this Not mine. Not a shread of evidence Christianity or in the Bible that medical attentance is forbitten.

 

[Philothei]

You don't believe in miracles?

That is not what is says !!

I think that in an emergency for example, start praying whilst reaching for the phone to dial 999 - God may give you certain instruction, though personally I think it highly unlikely that He would stop you taking a child to hospital...however there may be other things He might show you or say to you about the situation. I don't think one can just 'drum up' faith that God will do a certain thing in response to your prayers....He can see the whole picture of what's going on, and what the best thing is.

Also another example would be the good samaritan... The priest takes him to the inn to take care of his wounds with oil and wine .... God praises him for doing so ... Why would God praises him if he ONLY needed to pray for him? That parable is a good example of God instructing taking care of a a stranger why would he not want us to give medical care to our child?

The Bible has many other such examples