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peaceful soul

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originally posted by Islam_mulia

1. We are discussing the 'brethren' in Deuteronomy and I am quite satisfied with the outcome of our discussion. Muhammad (pbuh) was prophecised in Deut. and other parts of the Bible, however, this is not the thread to discuss.

Yes, just ignore the context of scripture and continue along with convincing yourself that the Qu'ran is true because it says it is, and anything that upsets that belief is automatically false because the Qu'ran must be true. Circumambulation!:clap: Even if you don't want to believe the Bible is true, you can at least vouch for what it says and not try to read your own beliefs into it. If I did that to the Qu'ran, you would not appreciate it, now would you? The context of Deuteronomy is concerning the nation of Israel. It does not relate to anyone else. To create the picture of God calling upon an outside source of guidence to His chosen people is like calling the fire department of another city to put our the fire in your city when there are ample resources for you own fire department to do the job.

kjf512 has shown you already that Israel is the only object of context. Why would you continue to press onward to make your claim, given the prooper context?

2. I am not sure what Ignatius has to do with Muhammad (pbuh) being the last prophet - which, if you have forgotten, is the original post.

The point that if you read, you can see some of your errors in your claims concerning what is correct. It is amazes me how you and other Muslims can be so selective in how you handle the Bible. The technique of picking and choosing would not be tolerated by you if Christians or other groups scoured through the Qu'ran and countered your claims that you speak of relating the the Qu'ran. The example of the Bahai's is enough for you to understrand your dilemma. Sitting here watching you and other Muslims try to invalidate the claims of Baha'is is intersting since I see you using some of the same logic that Christians use to defend Christianity. Suddenly the illogical use of Christian approaches to rationale becomes a tool to dismiss something that rivals your own religion.:D Exactly how many times will you continue to ignore your fallacious approach to the scriptures of others?
 
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français

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Well, the Arabs descend from Abraham too.

and ur point? we're all descendents from Adam and Eve too.

let's compare it to this..

there's brothers and sisters in humanity.

and then there might be brothers and sisters in Christ, or in islam, or something of that nature.
 
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peaceful soul

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Oh, I wasn't claiming that 18:18 would definitely have to refer to Muhammed, only that he does fit the description. Being of a closely related people is one of the less abstract meanings of "your brothers".

But then you would have to refer to the context in which the word is used. That is when you will have to dismiss the Muslim's claim. Would you accept if I took a meaning of an Islamic term and applied a Biblical definition to it and then proceded to exegete the Qu'ranic text? Saying that the word has different meanings or that it could mean this or that does not justify liberalizing the definition to fit a belief. That goes for a Christian doing the same with the Bible.
 
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peaceful soul

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And how does the context explicitly show what is meant by "brothers"?

Overall context points to Israel. That is how. The whole discourse of Deuteronomy is about Israel specifically. It is not peripheral to non-Israelites. I really don't see why Muslims try to read things into this scripture that are foreign to it. Brothers, brethern, etc. can be used interchangable; but, like I said, it comes down to context of usage that determines what is true--not what I want to believe or what I have been taught to be true.

If you look at the previous chapter, you can see the buildup of the context to the next chapter that is being debated. Brothers/brethern refers to the brothers of Israel--the 12 tribes. Among the brothers/brethern (12 tribes) is the most rational interpretation and understanding of the passages. To place any other interpretation on the passage is to be intellectualy dishonest. Trying to fit Islam into a foreign text--Bible--is a far stretch.
 
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français

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And how does the context explicitly show what is meant by "brothers"?

yes it does, in Deuteronomy 17 :)

although it is talking about kings, it says that a foreigner (non israelite) is not your brother.

i believe the Jews have this 13 classification thing,. where to study Torah, they have this thing they use. and one of them is to look at what is being discussed in other parts of the Torah that talk about the same topic. in chapter 17, it says that a brother is an Israelite, and not a foreigner. therefore, the conclusion is that brethern is an Israelite/Jew!

plus, just looking at verse 15.. from the "midst of thee" "amongst your brethern" and so forth. it's clear that it's speaking of a Jew!

thanks for not speculating like others have!
 
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Futuwwa

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But, if the whole people of Israel is being spoken to when saying "a prophet shall arise from among your brothers", well, can "brothers" even be Israeli here? In that case, it wouldn't be "from among your brothers" but "from among you". Who are the brothers of the whole Israeli people? You cannot be a brother of yourself.
 
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Islam_mulia

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kjf512 has shown you already that Israel is the only object of context. Why would you continue to press onward to make your claim, given the prooper context?

If Israel, as a body, is the context... the who is the brethren of the Israelites?

I have shown you that Deuteronomy 18 was discussing on 2 or 3 issues. Take, for example, Matthew Henry Commentary, the chapter was looking at four main issues.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=de&chapter=18#De18_1

The issue of the brethen in Deut 18:15 and 18 is different from the brethren discussed in the Levi issue with its brothers.

Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18 was discussing the prophet to come, from among the brethren of the Israelites, the Arabs.

The point that if you read, you can see some of your errors in your claims concerning what is correct. It is amazes me how you and other Muslims can be so selective in how you handle the Bible. The technique of picking and choosing would not be tolerated by you if Christians or other groups scoured through the Qu'ran and countered your claims that you speak of relating the the Qu'ran. The example of the Bahai's is enough for you to understrand your dilemma. Sitting here watching you and other Muslims try to invalidate the claims of Baha'is is intersting since I see you using some of the same logic that Christians use to defend Christianity. Suddenly the illogical use of Christian approaches to rationale becomes a tool to dismiss something that rivals your own religion.:D Exactly how many times will you continue to ignore your fallacious approach to the scriptures of others?
How much fascinating can it be when even Christians twist, turn and roll the Tanach to prove that certain verses point to Jesus, when they were certainly not.

The difference between Christians, Muslims and Bahais in their approach to prophecies is how credible their reasonings were in the light of the teachings of their scriptures.

In the case of the 'brethren' in Deuteronomy 18, I have not seen any credible refutation, ie, Christians have not shown under what conditions the brethren cannot refer to a non-israelite.

In the case of Bahais, the contradictory statements made by their own prophet regarding the last nabi/rasul puts a heavy doubt on the credibility of their claim.

Of course, if you rely on kjf, you'll end up with a myriad of opportunities and changes, from 'brethren' to 'cousins', from 'prophet' to 'Messiah'. You'll even stumble on the same issue you've agreed with him earlier. the guy can really make some convincing presentations.
 
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Islam_mulia

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yes it does, in Deuteronomy 17 :)

although it is talking about kings, it says that a foreigner (non israelite) is not your brother.

i believe the Jews have this 13 classification thing,. where to study Torah, they have this thing they use. and one of them is to look at what is being discussed in other parts of the Torah that talk about the same topic. in chapter 17, it says that a brother is an Israelite, and not a foreigner. therefore, the conclusion is that brethern is an Israelite/Jew!

plus, just looking at verse 15.. from the "midst of thee" "amongst your brethern" and so forth. it's clear that it's speaking of a Jew!

thanks for not speculating like others have!
How about in the same book of deuteronomy, but at chapter 2:

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

and

8And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab.

Sorry, who are the 'brethren' here?
 
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seed757

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How about in the same book of deuteronomy, but at chapter 2:



and



Sorry, who are the 'brethren' here?

They would more than likely try to engage in some sort of tortured mental gymnastics to somehow show that it is still speaking of the Israelites.

If not, then you have made the case that "brethren" does not always have to refer exclusively to the Israelites themselves. Hence, it could easily refer to Arabs just as well as it refers to Edomites.
 
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anatolian

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if "from among your brothers" refers to ismailites that prophet must be Muhammed-aleyhissalam- but if it refers to israelites it cannot be 'christian' Jesus, because the verse say that prophet will be "like Moses" a merely human prophet but christians call Jesus the incarnation of God...
 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by Janissary

But, if the whole people of Israel is being spoken to when saying "a prophet shall arise from among your brothers", well,
can "brothers" even be Israeli here?

Moses' dialogue was with Israel and directed to them only. It was not about someone outside of his audience. If you were to insert a foreigner into the equation, then you would destroy the entire context and purpose of Deuteronomy. The twelve tribes of Israel were direct descendents from Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. Jacob had twelve sons, whom were brothers to each other. Their descendants are called the twelve tribes of Israel or the children of Israel. Their names are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun (the sons of Jacob and Leah); Dan and Naphtali (the sons of Jacob and Bilhah); Gad and Asher (the sons of Jacob and Zilpah); Joseph and Benjamin (the sons of Jacob and Rachel).

Note: they all came from the same father, Jacob. So, any expression such as among or from among would pinpoint to the entire group of 12 brothers and their direct descendents and not to others outside of their lineage, who would not be called brothers in this context. From among your brethren/brothers would signify those from among the 12 brothers which comprise Israel and their descendants.

In that case, it wouldn't be "from among your brothers" but "from among you". Who are the brothers of the whole Israeli people? You cannot be a brother of yourself.

Given that Israel was composed of 12 different tribes who did share one common lineage--being from the line of Jacob--they would be brothers to each other in that regard (see above). Anyone outside of that line would not be a brother relatively speaking to Moses speech in context. The whole book of Deuteronomy would not make any sense if someone else other than Israel itself was being addressed. The whole progression of Israel was internal to Israel. God never dealt with Israel outside of itself unless it was for judgment against them. He called Israel "His people". He never deviated from that. God did not appoint anyone over them that was not from within them. The only time that he gave rule over Israel to anyone other than Israel was when they were judged for their wickedness. For example, they were put under rule when they were exiled under Babylon.

If you don't consider context, both historical and Biblical--then you can come up with many contradicting beliefs on the topic. I will remind you that the definition of a word comes from it contextual usage--not what you think or want it to mean. If immediate context does not give you the full meaning or understanding of the word, then you work your way backwards and consider the surrounding context, which may be a chapter or two before and after or even an entire book in the case of Deuteronomy.
 
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RN4CHRIST

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After extensive discussion,The Debate Team has decided that this thread will be permanently closed, due to multiple violations of rules 2.1
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