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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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pittsflyer
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Your points are all very sound and make sense but its hard to ignore the sheer volume of divorced and broken homes. I mean I get it the guy that beats his wife or ignores her and makes her feel like crap or does not love them (BTW I have always loved the women I have been with and treated them just as you suggest but perhaps it was the kid thing that tipped it over).
I mean half of marriages end in divorce in and out of the church. Men who gave the woman a family, etc. But you still hear day after day about some guy getting blind sided by divorce papers who have kids and a home together and its not like a once in a while thing the divorce courts are PACKED. When I got divorced they had like 8 couples in a court house conference room and just went down the line. There were so many we did not even get a real court room (I have seen a real court room when I was in jury duty).
If this was not an epidemic and it was just a couple of douchbag guys treating women poor then I would totally agree with you and that would be that, but I cant ignore a 50% divorce rate. It is statisticly improbably that all of these guys are douchbags.
I mean half of marriages end in divorce in and out of the church. Men who gave the woman a family, etc. But you still hear day after day about some guy getting blind sided by divorce papers who have kids and a home together and its not like a once in a while thing the divorce courts are PACKED. When I got divorced they had like 8 couples in a court house conference room and just went down the line. There were so many we did not even get a real court room (I have seen a real court room when I was in jury duty).
If this was not an epidemic and it was just a couple of douchbag guys treating women poor then I would totally agree with you and that would be that, but I cant ignore a 50% divorce rate. It is statisticly improbably that all of these guys are douchbags.
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Yeah I do think some of this is cultural because when many people talk about feminism they're not really being inclusive in regards to the experience of African American women and other women of color or men for that matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I'm not talking about DV as much as I'm speaking about intimate betrayals and disloyalty. There are men who are very subtle in the way they hurt their mates but then expect intimacy thinking nothing of their behavior adding insult to injury. If you knew she wanted children then denied her, that was a betrayal IMO.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Was it eye opening because a woman did what men have been doing for centuries with ease? Would this have been eye opening had this been a close male friend or male relative of yours? Too many times I feel like some men are hypocritical about situations like you described. It's fine for a man but let a woman do it and watch all hell break loose...[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I'm not talking about DV as much as I'm speaking about intimate betrayals and disloyalty. There are men who are very subtle in the way they hurt their mates but then expect intimacy thinking nothing of their behavior adding insult to injury. If you knew she wanted children then denied her, that was a betrayal IMO.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Was it eye opening because a woman did what men have been doing for centuries with ease? Would this have been eye opening had this been a close male friend or male relative of yours? Too many times I feel like some men are hypocritical about situations like you described. It's fine for a man but let a woman do it and watch all hell break loose...[/FONT]
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pittsflyer
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Yes because if it is easy for women to change beds AND they know they are going to get a big pay out then they can just leave as soon as they are not 100% happy. There is no reason to tough anything out. At least if a man changes beds he is going to have to pay for it financially.
I dont care who changes beds as long as I dont have to pay for it but when there are kids dad is always going to pay no matter what.
I dont care who changes beds as long as I dont have to pay for it but when there are kids dad is always going to pay no matter what.
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There are lots of reasons to not want children in a marriage. It doesn't mean you are childish or immature. Sometimes it means that you are very self-aware or NOT selfish. There are some lifestyles and dreams that are good but just not good lives to raise children in. And other just don't feel the need or desire to actually have kids.
However, that should be discussed along with other dreams BEFORE you say "I do".
I dated a guy ... very manly guy ... who in a very vulnerable moment not only told me about his dreams about kids ... he had actually named them.
He now is a very proud doting papa of a stepdaughter and daughter. I don't know how anyone dates and doesn't have these kind of discussions when you start even remotely considering marriage.
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The truth is that most women who leave a marriage become significantly worse off financially. And women with children have a harder time remarrying because they usually have custody of them.
If the women in your life have hopped beds so easily....it kind of leans toward the fact that they didn't hate sex but rather might not have been happy with the arrangement they were given.
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Again, you seem to think women benefit from child support....instead of realizing that money is going to support the man's children. The money is for THE KIDS. He would have had to pay toward their needs regardless of whether or not he stayed married to their mom. Child support seldom is anywhere near the cost of what the kids actually cost. And the people responsible for raising them are the ones that MADE them.
They aren't an expense that gets passed to whoever is having sex with the custodial parent. What a sad, sad, sad way to think about children.
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Women stop having sex most of the time because they feel emotionally deserted. It isn't that they just didn't get beat up on a regular basis.
Whether or not you like it, most women are emotional creatures and need to feel valued in order to have a good sexual relationship with their men. That is why sex is often okay in the beginning ... it is when the men are actually still trying to please their women outside of the bedroom. When they start to feel like they have "bought the cow" and the milk should be free and always plentiful...that women start to shut down. It can also be clumsy man who thinks that good sex is what he likes and the woman is just a necesssary accessory to meet his needs. Just as bad are the men who have decided in advance what a woman wants (often very wrong) without paying attention to her actual desires....and the result is a woman laying there thinking "how long is this going to take? and if I pretend that it works, will he get off of me already?"
Whether or not you like it, most women are emotional creatures and need to feel valued in order to have a good sexual relationship with their men. That is why sex is often okay in the beginning ... it is when the men are actually still trying to please their women outside of the bedroom. When they start to feel like they have "bought the cow" and the milk should be free and always plentiful...that women start to shut down. It can also be clumsy man who thinks that good sex is what he likes and the woman is just a necesssary accessory to meet his needs. Just as bad are the men who have decided in advance what a woman wants (often very wrong) without paying attention to her actual desires....and the result is a woman laying there thinking "how long is this going to take? and if I pretend that it works, will he get off of me already?"
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dayhiker
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Personally, if we get along, and enjoy our time together that's all I ask. That means we can communicate and accept each other for who we are. So my GF just this weekend, came to me and said there are some people I was to talk with at this party and lets split up and I'll see you later. Which is what we did. I loved looking over and seeing that she as having a great conversation with some other people. I knew she was enjoying herself. I also had a few good conversations and hugs with people that I wanted to catch up with since the last time I talked with them.
So that is good enough for me.
So that is good enough for me.
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
Aside from the morality of it, it's been a common practice for years for men to trade up. Why is it such an issue when women do it? I'm not against big pay outs if the mate helped to make that happen. Like they worked to put their mate through grad/law/med school, helped to make the business a success, or raised the family/wife. If that's the case, I feel they earned that pay out and then some probably. However people are getting divorced across socioeconomic lines. So there's not necessarily some big financial payout. Where there are children PARENTS have to pay...moms and dads. It's all based on who has full custody and some dads are in that category. So it's moms who are paying out. Dads are not the only ones...
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dayhiker
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If couples can be civil to each other I think they and the kids are better off if they stay together.
That's one of the things I'm so thankful for. My divorce was after the kids were 20.
As for love, emotions and sex ... our model seems to be to look around till we find someone we have chemistry toward and then we date, marry and have sex as long as there is chemistry between us. Most people, men and women, spend almost no time figuring out how to keep the chemistry going between us. I know a councillor who finds almost every couple that comes to her say something along the lines of they have lost the feeling of love between them. So this lady shows them how to fall in love again. I which someone had told me about this stuff when my wife decided to divorce me. She even told me she was praying that God would give her love for me again. She gave God 6 months. Apparently, no one around us knew what we should do as they didn't tell us.
That's one of the things I'm so thankful for. My divorce was after the kids were 20.
As for love, emotions and sex ... our model seems to be to look around till we find someone we have chemistry toward and then we date, marry and have sex as long as there is chemistry between us. Most people, men and women, spend almost no time figuring out how to keep the chemistry going between us. I know a councillor who finds almost every couple that comes to her say something along the lines of they have lost the feeling of love between them. So this lady shows them how to fall in love again. I which someone had told me about this stuff when my wife decided to divorce me. She even told me she was praying that God would give her love for me again. She gave God 6 months. Apparently, no one around us knew what we should do as they didn't tell us.
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Messy
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There are lots of reasons to not want children in a marriage. It doesn't mean you are childish or immature. Sometimes it means that you are very self-aware or NOT selfish. There are some lifestyles and dreams that are good but just not good lives to raise children in. And other just don't feel the need or desire to actually have kids.
However, that should be discussed along with other dreams BEFORE you say "I do".
I dated a guy ... very manly guy ... who in a very vulnerable moment not only told me about his dreams about kids ... he had actually named them.
I don't know how anyone dates and doesn't have these kind of discussions when you start even remotely considering marriage.
Yes, it's just that they all said I was immature. I'm afraid it is true. I see some women and really wonder how they do it. They have a job, please their husband, cook, clean, the kids listen to them and they don't complain. Good for them but lol if a guy wants that he can look somewhere else. I'm the play mother. Dad does all the raising, teaching them to clean up etc. I play soccer with them, lol.
Oh you said somewhere that you hated fishing and learned to like it for your husband. I hated soccer and he watched it a lot, so I got used to it and started to even like it. Now my son learns that from him and all he wants to do now is watch and play soccer, but dad is 56 and too lazy to play soccer with him. I was the worst one in school, Always chosen last with soccer. Lol mom come on, move those feet! I'm getting better at it now.
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Messy
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Yes, we yelled and screamed so much, he thought it was better for the kids if we split up. His parents and my parents were always fighting and it was horrible.
Now we're just friends and do it together, they go 4 times a week from his house to mine, we live nearby.
Our marriage could have been saved too if there had been help. We could Always help everyone and they're still married. When we got trouble there was noone who could help us, yes for another I don't know how many Thousand euro which we didn't have anymore. Wish we had gone to T.B. Joshua. The most awful marriages get healed there.
We went to a christian psychiater, but he didn't want to talk about sex, that was filthy.
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pittsflyer
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I was not refering to how well off a woman was after a divorce I was saying that men almost ALWAYS pay. Also she obviously was not happy or she would not have left but that does not change how easy it was for her to switch beds.
If women can switch beds easy, get custody and still make dad pay thats a pretty good deal. Yea if she was with a doctor and leaves of course she is going to be worse off, she was not the doctor but the doctor will still have to pay and wont be having sex with her anymore.
As the doctor why should he care about her relative finanical situation, the only thing that matters is he is having to write checks to a woman that is no longer in bed with him.
If women can switch beds easy, get custody and still make dad pay thats a pretty good deal. Yea if she was with a doctor and leaves of course she is going to be worse off, she was not the doctor but the doctor will still have to pay and wont be having sex with her anymore.
As the doctor why should he care about her relative finanical situation, the only thing that matters is he is having to write checks to a woman that is no longer in bed with him.
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pittsflyer
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So that means that 35% of all men are completely defunct since the divorce rate is 50% and 70% of them are filed by women. I have a hard time believing that.
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
[FONT=Georgia, serif]You would think men would run, but I'm perimenopausal and I can make a real good guess as to why they don't...oh yeah...woo chile lol[/FONT]
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dayhiker
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My father told me that before doctors were able to help some postmenopausal women that there were quite a few that went crazy.
Maybe its just the circles I run in, but I'm not having too much problem getting along with woman around my age.
Maybe its just the circles I run in, but I'm not having too much problem getting along with woman around my age.
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