quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
I have an ideal of what you're asking but can you give me your definition of what you mean by "good enough"?
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I have an ideal of what you're asking but can you give me your definition of what you mean by "good enough"?
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pittsflyer
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I suppose turn about is fair play, I suppose I would be ok with it so long as she stayed settled and treated me well.
Or Mr. okay then I can't get anything else
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pittsflyer
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Like if you were looking for a woman of a certian attractivness, intellegence, education etc and it was becoming clear that those women were not interested in you so you readjusted your expectations. I went on a rating site and I was about a 6, had an engineering degree and worked out but I still could not succeed so I reajusted.
Perhaps readjusted expectations is a better phrase.
Perhaps readjusted expectations is a better phrase.
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
Oh okay...initially it just sounded like something else...okay now I see what you're saying. Actually I think by this definition what you're talking about happens all the time. It's just not spoken. I know of a situation. Turns out the person they married is the best thing that ever happened to them.
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pittsflyer
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I am looking at getting remarried in several more years and I hope that finally turns out for me as well lol. I have heard that my mind set is extremely refreshing for lesser attractive women when the men in thier leauge finally see light of day lol. I dont mind saying lesser attractive because I know I am lesser attractive and I have learned to find those women extremely attractive sexually but as a scientist/engineer I know that they are not the most attractive in an objective sense, if that makes sense.
I suppose you could compare it to a womans magazine critiqe who picked out flaws in women who are already 9s and 10s but goes home to a wife he loves who is 250 lbs but that is HIS woman, naked in THEIR bed room ready to do really dirty stuff to HIM.
I suppose you could compare it to a womans magazine critiqe who picked out flaws in women who are already 9s and 10s but goes home to a wife he loves who is 250 lbs but that is HIS woman, naked in THEIR bed room ready to do really dirty stuff to HIM.
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Mr Good Enough to a woman is a man she respects but isn't terrible attracted to anymore...so the idea of sex is neither here nor there. He doesn't tell she is wonderful but he is kind enough and comes home every night...but he doesn't make her feel special either so she avoids sex when possible and probably fantasizes he is someone else or plans the grocery list in her head when she does her "wifely" obligation....and that is what marital sex has become...an obligation.
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It the good marriages I know, the people aren't the "beautiful people" but when they look at each other...they see the other person completely so their soul is part of the "big picture" and they do think their spouse is the most sexy person in the world....the only person they could imagine being with. I remember my father-in-law who had to go to bed early for work peeking around the corner if I went to their house and hung out with my mother-in-law later than he wanted her to be up...the look of adoration as he stared at her almost trying to will her to come to bed with him was something I found amazing. There was no doubt that he thought she was the most beautiful woman in the world. He wouldn't have traded her for any younger beauty queen. Matter of fact, in their late 60's , he still looks at her that way. I am nothing special to look at either...and my husband used to look at me the same way. I knew I could trust him in a room full of naked girls...because although he would have admired them, they would have made him want me more. Trust like that and adoring looks like that....well, those are the two things can get a woman's engine rolling even at the end of a very tired day.
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
[FONT=Georgia, serif]If you don't mind me asking, how many women have found your mind set extremely refreshing and what were their age range? Where did you meet these women? I'm just curious because I've seen some things in my lifetime and I really don't buy into the league stuff. Peel that social status back and many times you'll have nothing but a bunch of dysfunction and spiritual bankruptcy. Unfortunately some don't find that out until they marry into it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I do know that not everyone considers marriage the same way I do. People get married for all kinds of reasons but you seem to objectify women sexually so why marry? I see that you're a seeker so you're not held to the same standards that we as Born Again Christians are. You haven't said anything about a woman's character, intellect, morals, values, etc. So if your objective is sexual then why not patronize prostitution? I'm not kidding. If you're going to reduce a woman down sexually for the sole purpose of your sexual needs only and not caring anything about who she is as a person, that is the description of a sex worker and not a wife. Although sex workers are very careful about borderline abuse. I would think a wife is way more work and consideration. Am I wrong in understanding how you view women? [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Hmmmm...I don't think your analogy of the critique ads up because his wife could have once upon a time been the dime who gained weight for a variety of reasons. To him for all you know she was and forever will be the dime. Which would mean that what they have isn't just sexual, but sex is a part of the whole...not the whole.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I do know that not everyone considers marriage the same way I do. People get married for all kinds of reasons but you seem to objectify women sexually so why marry? I see that you're a seeker so you're not held to the same standards that we as Born Again Christians are. You haven't said anything about a woman's character, intellect, morals, values, etc. So if your objective is sexual then why not patronize prostitution? I'm not kidding. If you're going to reduce a woman down sexually for the sole purpose of your sexual needs only and not caring anything about who she is as a person, that is the description of a sex worker and not a wife. Although sex workers are very careful about borderline abuse. I would think a wife is way more work and consideration. Am I wrong in understanding how you view women? [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Hmmmm...I don't think your analogy of the critique ads up because his wife could have once upon a time been the dime who gained weight for a variety of reasons. To him for all you know she was and forever will be the dime. Which would mean that what they have isn't just sexual, but sex is a part of the whole...not the whole.[/FONT]
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pittsflyer
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I put seeker but I am a christian and believe in one woman and one man (I was browsing the forum rules and they are quite onerous so I wanted as few affiliations attached as possible). The reason I think myself (and alot of other men I know) seem to focus on sex is because our modern third wave feminism has sort of made sex optional in marriage so as a man we have to be super careful not to step into a really bad situation where we are considering a prostitute becasue our wives wont do it. Been there done that and wont do it again, its an absolute nightmare.
I dont know if you have used excel but when you apply the "wont defraud you in bed filter" ALOT of women drop off the list. So if you have used the filter function in excell and you apply a filter and 80% of the list disappears then you cant really apply too many other filters before the list is totally empty.
In that time with my first wife I actually did look into a prostitute and they are QUITE expensive. It was certianly not want I wanted to do but as a guy in modern third wave feminism society I almost felt painted into a corner. If it was not expensive I may have went that route just to avoid the insurmountable amount of rejection I would have to face and all the other problems.
It is a dark place to be and I believe alot more men are in that place due to modern feminism. I would love it if frequent sex how ever you wanted it was just a given and did not even need a filter, then people could focus on all the things you are refering to and not be wondering if their spouse is going to flake out when you were in bed at night and super horny. Married people (or even people in ltr's) agreed to forsake all others and are relying on them to take care of it (barring some extreme medical scenario). Once you get married or enter into a ltr it should be understood that its not socially acceptable to say no anymore, it should be mutually agreed on to NOT do it, not to do it.
Maybe I am digging myself a bigger hole but its important in my life so I am not going to pretend its not. Also you dont have to buy into the leauge stuff for it to be real. I am pretty sure scientists even did repeatable social experements and proved its real, people just dont want to call it that but what ever you want to call it how you look matters (the personality stuff comes later).
I dont know if you have used excel but when you apply the "wont defraud you in bed filter" ALOT of women drop off the list. So if you have used the filter function in excell and you apply a filter and 80% of the list disappears then you cant really apply too many other filters before the list is totally empty.
In that time with my first wife I actually did look into a prostitute and they are QUITE expensive. It was certianly not want I wanted to do but as a guy in modern third wave feminism society I almost felt painted into a corner. If it was not expensive I may have went that route just to avoid the insurmountable amount of rejection I would have to face and all the other problems.
It is a dark place to be and I believe alot more men are in that place due to modern feminism. I would love it if frequent sex how ever you wanted it was just a given and did not even need a filter, then people could focus on all the things you are refering to and not be wondering if their spouse is going to flake out when you were in bed at night and super horny. Married people (or even people in ltr's) agreed to forsake all others and are relying on them to take care of it (barring some extreme medical scenario). Once you get married or enter into a ltr it should be understood that its not socially acceptable to say no anymore, it should be mutually agreed on to NOT do it, not to do it.
Maybe I am digging myself a bigger hole but its important in my life so I am not going to pretend its not. Also you dont have to buy into the leauge stuff for it to be real. I am pretty sure scientists even did repeatable social experements and proved its real, people just dont want to call it that but what ever you want to call it how you look matters (the personality stuff comes later).
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exitstageright
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So,I guess my mistake,when I was in my twenties,was giving women,whom I like,those adoring looks way too soon. I gave her those looks before we were in a relationship. So,after a woman is married to a man,it is okay for her man to salivate when he is looking at her?
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Hmmmm...well thanks for responding. After I wrote it I had second thoughts and I don't want to come across as rude or forward. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from...[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]So are you really going to blame modern feminism for being the reason you objectify women sexually? More than anything it just seems like a male supremacist response to women in general. Nothing new really. I don't know...I just kinda thought here in 2015 some American men would be up on their game a little better. After all I've never seen a man's strength be in putting women down but instead it's just more of the same ole same ole and that's disappointing. But that could be because I'm older and I come from an egalitarian generation of when men stood tall and their women stood tall next to them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I wasn't talking about prostitution while married but instead of marriage. Thank you for your candor though. I don't know anybody that sex isn't important to them and that includes both the virgins and the abstinent/celibates crowd. In saying that I don't know anybody who speaks of the opposite sex only in sexual terms. Maybe they do and I'm just not around but I doubt it. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Sex is important and I really understand that but what if you get married and can't perform anymore what then? [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]When I think of league I think of social status (pedigree) and not so much looks. Sure there have been social experiments on how good looking people get treated better in some cases but I truly believe when it comes to marriage and relationships beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]You wanna tell me how much Bill Gates looks matter? [/FONT]
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pittsflyer
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When I talk about generalities I am generally refering to the middle of the bell curve not the extreme ends like bill gates. I dont objectify women at all, I just understand the game and have learned to play it as well as I can with the handicaps I have (ie looks). I am guessing you might be a WW2 generation woman? I have a co worker who was drafted into the army air corp at the end of WW2, the war ended before he saw combat but he told me the whole dating dynamic was TOTALLY different back in the day, different things mattered and you did not have droves of entitled snotty women (I am by no means saying you are especially if you are from that generation).
I am hoping that my girl friend and hopefully soon to be wife stand tall together as well. I think I am failing to explain myself or I am only explaining certian facets at a time.
There are more women than you think that will try to use sex as leverage or just flat out refuse it (for no good reason, im not talking about lagit medical issues but it must be engrained in a womans brain that becuase a stroke in the hospital is a good reason then her not feeling like it is too but in reality its not). Its not like the WW2 generation, it actually hasent been for a long time. I would never want to substitute prostitutes for a wife but when all you see is vapid women that look at most men with contempt you start to think that might be better (but in reality it is cost prohibitive in the long run with current laws and supply/demand issues).
No guy wants the wife that always has a "head ach" NO GUY or thinks that certian sex acts are only for christmas and birthday. NO GUY wants that, none, zero. No guy wants to be a chump either, men want to be men but the system has neutered men.
The beauty of a marriage is a partner that treats you well but the looks get you in the door thats all I was trying to say. Modern feminism has taken away the weight of a good job/provider and shifted it to looks and other intangibles. This is hugely good for women but its horrible for men as a man your job and income make little difference in the dating world as long as you are not a total bum (unless you make it to multi millionare status).
So I dont know if I explained anything any better but we may just have to agree to disagree.
I am hoping that my girl friend and hopefully soon to be wife stand tall together as well. I think I am failing to explain myself or I am only explaining certian facets at a time.
There are more women than you think that will try to use sex as leverage or just flat out refuse it (for no good reason, im not talking about lagit medical issues but it must be engrained in a womans brain that becuase a stroke in the hospital is a good reason then her not feeling like it is too but in reality its not). Its not like the WW2 generation, it actually hasent been for a long time. I would never want to substitute prostitutes for a wife but when all you see is vapid women that look at most men with contempt you start to think that might be better (but in reality it is cost prohibitive in the long run with current laws and supply/demand issues).
No guy wants the wife that always has a "head ach" NO GUY or thinks that certian sex acts are only for christmas and birthday. NO GUY wants that, none, zero. No guy wants to be a chump either, men want to be men but the system has neutered men.
The beauty of a marriage is a partner that treats you well but the looks get you in the door thats all I was trying to say. Modern feminism has taken away the weight of a good job/provider and shifted it to looks and other intangibles. This is hugely good for women but its horrible for men as a man your job and income make little difference in the dating world as long as you are not a total bum (unless you make it to multi millionare status).
So I dont know if I explained anything any better but we may just have to agree to disagree.
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Kingsdotter
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You objectify women even though you say you don't. If you have experienced sexual rejection as often as u suggest, then there is a possibility that there are things you have not been doing right.
Do you know that women have sexual needs too? Because your posts seems to suggest, you are not aware of it. FYI most women will complain of "headaches" when sex has become a chore, and this often happens when the man keeps considering only his own sexual needs.
Do you think every woman is a feminist? Or does it bother you that women now have rights?
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quietpraiyze
In The Secret Place
[FONT=Georgia, serif]No I was born in 1962. I often think of it as the hotbed of the Civil Right and Feminist movements. As an African American so many things were changing for us. I think my generation was the first to actually go in and posses the land so to speak. As far as the genders went we were really in lock step socially. Relationship wise, I don't remember there being this split. The sexes got along because everybody was working and we could make it to the promise land now. So for us the income split wasn't there because both sexes worked and that was a good thing. If you had a job or was working a business, that's what made you look attractive. If you were handsome or pretty that would just be an extra bonus. That's some of what I grew up with. It wasn't a fairytale but it was alright. I can't complain but now in some circles it's like the stakes are even higher. It's just ridiculous. So I do understand what you're saying but it may just manifest itself differently culturally. Although I have heard the term entitlement thrown around some. It always seems like it's coming from men who feel entitled! So I don't know if I can take that serious. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]You may not think you objectify women but you do. That's not the game, that's just you because everybody is not playing the game. Some people are just trying to protect themselves like I suspect you are. Is something concerning your exes still hurting you? Nobody wants to be hurt or rejected. I doubt that you don't see how you speak about women. Odds are you do and you just don't care. It's like women are guilty no matter what and men are victims. I don't see any victims. Also NO WOMAN wants a man who treats her like a dog all day and then wants to access her at night. As long as there are men who want to treat their wives like they're nothing, their wives will have a headache every day all day until somebody dies or divorces. Are women defrauding men sexually or are men not keeping their word to love and honor? Are they really loving their wives like Christ loves the church or are they trying to abuse, bully and rule over them? God help you if you have a passive aggressive mate because they will get their pound of flesh one way or the other. You hurt her and she WILL hurt you back. Does it make it right? You tell me. I don't know too many women who are pulling the great hold out who are truly being loved by their mate/man outside the bedroom in everyday life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I do understand on one end what you're saying but on the other to me there are no victims not in this context anyways...[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]You may not think you objectify women but you do. That's not the game, that's just you because everybody is not playing the game. Some people are just trying to protect themselves like I suspect you are. Is something concerning your exes still hurting you? Nobody wants to be hurt or rejected. I doubt that you don't see how you speak about women. Odds are you do and you just don't care. It's like women are guilty no matter what and men are victims. I don't see any victims. Also NO WOMAN wants a man who treats her like a dog all day and then wants to access her at night. As long as there are men who want to treat their wives like they're nothing, their wives will have a headache every day all day until somebody dies or divorces. Are women defrauding men sexually or are men not keeping their word to love and honor? Are they really loving their wives like Christ loves the church or are they trying to abuse, bully and rule over them? God help you if you have a passive aggressive mate because they will get their pound of flesh one way or the other. You hurt her and she WILL hurt you back. Does it make it right? You tell me. I don't know too many women who are pulling the great hold out who are truly being loved by their mate/man outside the bedroom in everyday life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]I do understand on one end what you're saying but on the other to me there are no victims not in this context anyways...[/FONT]
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Messy
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You know them all? They laughed at my ex at the office because he was the only one who didn't watch porn. He was autistic. No filthy porn stuff was no problem to him.
There are also more and more men who want to have sex once a year or not at all thanks to porn.
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pittsflyer
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I totally agree its a two way street. I did not bring it up since it was not really the topic at hand. Of course if things are one sided the other side is going to get fed up. That was not my case.
I think everyone should have equal rights, though not voting rights (but thats an issue totally unrelated to this).
I think everyone should have equal rights, though not voting rights (but thats an issue totally unrelated to this).
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pittsflyer
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Perhaps my culture/circles what have you are completely different. I am not refering to any kind of abuse or domestic violence. In one of my cases she wanted to pop out a kid and I was not ready so that was that. The ease with which she was able to leave and hook up with a new guy was eye opening, the fact that she did not have to deal with anything unpleasent and trading me out was like getting a new pair of shoes made me never want kids.
It was just WAY too easy, I mean if a couple is married and has kids it should be hard, the process should be hard and there should be some social stigma, especially when there was no DV. It was just unsettling to me how easy it was for her.
It was just WAY too easy, I mean if a couple is married and has kids it should be hard, the process should be hard and there should be some social stigma, especially when there was no DV. It was just unsettling to me how easy it was for her.
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pittsflyer
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I have heard of this and read articles in passing on this but it just does not compute with me. The only way I could see this happening that would compute is if the wife set the presidence through refusal and then a large span of time passes and now she is in the mood but he checked out a long time ago so there is huge resentment (when in reality he should have just done the paper work and found someone else).
But a guy doing this right off the bat when the woman is willing it does not compute. It makes no sense at all, I woudl think there would have to be some kind of extenuating circumstance for this to ever happen.
Also how could anyone get away with talking about porn at work, maybe thats a netherlands thing. In our hyper litegious country there is no way anyone would ever talk about such things. It is WAY too easy to loose your job in the USA, most states are right to work and if you say something stupid or make one wrong move you can get canned.
Maybe some family buisensses or hard core labor jobs but no job in corporate america could you get away with this. I am surprised our boss can even send pictures of peoples new borns since sex had to happen to have that kid. I am sure if anyone complained it would be stopped.
I dont know how we got to this point as a nation.
But a guy doing this right off the bat when the woman is willing it does not compute. It makes no sense at all, I woudl think there would have to be some kind of extenuating circumstance for this to ever happen.
Also how could anyone get away with talking about porn at work, maybe thats a netherlands thing. In our hyper litegious country there is no way anyone would ever talk about such things. It is WAY too easy to loose your job in the USA, most states are right to work and if you say something stupid or make one wrong move you can get canned.
Maybe some family buisensses or hard core labor jobs but no job in corporate america could you get away with this. I am surprised our boss can even send pictures of peoples new borns since sex had to happen to have that kid. I am sure if anyone complained it would be stopped.
I dont know how we got to this point as a nation.
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What do you consider "treating a woman well"? Most women I know who feel like they are treated well...well, actually kind of like to be with their man...they don't shut down sexually...they often grow sexually because they want to make him as happy as he is making her. Trust me, there are some VERY sexual wives out there...usually because they have husbands that treat them like they are important to them. The idea that my "job" was to sleep with my husband is offensive. I slept with him because WE liked to be together and it was fun....and he treated me in a way that made me feel like I was important outside of the bedroom. Three days...that is usually the longest we ever went without having sex as a whole. If things got busy, he did things like the dishes to make sure that I couldn't say that I didn't have time...and guess what, there is nothing sexier than a guy doing dishes and winking at you the whole time..... In 16 years of marriage, I don't think he ever went to work without telling he loved me...and I was the first thing he seeked out when he got home from work. That is what love feels like. Ironically, I came from a family that didn't have that kind of relationship and he taught me how to be affectionate in that way.
As for the woman who divorced you over not wanting to have kids....Didn't you not have that discussion BEFORE you got married? If not, how did you not discuss things like how you saw the future together? For a person who wants kids to get married and finds out that the spouse doesn't.....that is often considered a breach of promise and they have to get out while they are still young enough to find a person who wants to have a family too.
As for the woman who divorced you over not wanting to have kids....Didn't you not have that discussion BEFORE you got married? If not, how did you not discuss things like how you saw the future together? For a person who wants kids to get married and finds out that the spouse doesn't.....that is often considered a breach of promise and they have to get out while they are still young enough to find a person who wants to have a family too.
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