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Deren said:Honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not they believe in original sin or not. Everyone is a sinner, and unless atonement is made for his/her sin, then forgiveness, repentance, restoration, etc., are not possible. So, we're back to the atonement question.
Deren said:So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins? From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?
So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins? From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?
But you give the message of muhammad instead of the message of Jesus the Christ, the Perfect Man!!!!!seed757 said:That is just it. There is nothing..NOTHING more important nor perfect, that a man possess, than man's intention to please God. That is the underlying message of Islam.
So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.Deren said:In short, no, because the only way they would be suitable is if they actually answered the question. And so far what has been provided are citations dealing with everything but atonement.
But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.Please give it a try. But just remember, I'm asking about atonement, and nothing else. Okay?
Y'know, the spooky voice in the time of the night. When youre alone in the dark.Heard what?
God create us. He knew we're not perfect because He's the One that create us. So, with all His Mercy, He'll forgive us, the imperfect creatures that He created. He knows what's in our heart and what are we doing with our life. In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.Really? So, just what blood offering are you going to offer of yourself that will appease the righteousness and holiness of God, given that you are an imperfect sinner, just like everyone else?
Our sincerity, our struggle, our motivation, etc. God is All-Knowing and He knows we're imperfect beings. And He also Most-Forgiving. He create us just like what we are, so He is aware what is our limit and what we've done and what we're trying to do.But once again, if this atonement that you spoke about above is flawed, because of an inherent sin nature, then just what can you offer to God that will lead to your forgiveness?
So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??warghaha said:So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.
But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.
Y'know, the spooky voice in the time of the night. When youre alone in the dark.. Nah! Just kidding. Just to lighten the mood with my lame joke.
God create us. He knew we're not perfect because He's the One that create us. So, with all His Mercy, He'll forgive us, the imperfect creatures that He created. He knows what's in our heart and what are we doing with our life. In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.
Our sincerity, our struggle, our motivation, etc. God is All-Knowing and He knows we're imperfect beings. And He also Most-Forgiving. He create us just like what we are, so He is aware what is our limit and what we've done and what we're trying to do.
Salaam
Allah's Merciness.Deren said:So, when Scripture tells us that God shed his blood to purchase his church (Acts 20:28), what is Luke referring to if it isn't Jesus' atoning for the sins of humankind? And since the Muslim rejects such a concept, what does Islam offer as a viable substitute for the shedding of blood to atone for sins?
When I said, the atonement came from within ourselves, I was tryign to be philosophical.From the previous post you said that the atonement came from individuals such as yourself. But, is that really a suitable alternative, given the tainted nature of who you are as a human being? Do you not think that God requires something much more perfect, given that he is perfect?
LittleLambofJesus said:So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??
(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'
(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'
(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
Jesus was equal to all other men/prophetsseed757 said:The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?
It's not my Quran. I don't have the copyright of itLittleLambofJesus said:So why do you put Jesus lower then Muhammad. That is what I don't understand. Why does not your Koran EXALT Him over muhammad??
The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?
Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets
(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'
(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'
(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
Well, I find it odd that the muslims expect Jesus to return in the future in Great GLory and Power and can still be considered just an "ordinary" prophet.warghaha said:It's not my Quran. I don't have the copyright of it. It's a guidance for all mankind.
I'm not belittle Jesus for all I know. I would rather being smashed by your sledgehammer than to do that. I just can't exalt him higher or simillar to God. He's indeed the noble, righteous, [insert your praise here] man. And I'm not saying Muhammad is greater than him nor he's greater than Muhammad. I hope you can understnad that
Salaam.
LittleLambofJesus said:Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets
(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'
(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'
(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
Jesus was equal to all other men/prophets
(Young) John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
(Young) Mark 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son--the Beloved, hear ye him!!!!;'
(Young) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'
(Young) John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
It is about the Who was to come to the world with the Word of God and the first to be raised.by God Himself and also to return with both Salvation and Vengeance.seed757 said:Jesus(pbuh) may have performed more miracles than other prophets. Moses(pbuh) may have done greater miracles than others. Elijah(pbuh) may have performed more significant miracles. It is not about the miracles or writtings or leadership. All prophets had different role and specific duties they performed.But, the essence of what they taught to the people they had influence over, was all the same. There is but one God whom we all must worship and obey.
seed757 said:So is this shed blood not physical blood? What other type of blood is there?
seed757 said:And you do realize that this is your opinion, right?
Is Jesus still flesh and bones in "heaven" or did He obtain a Glorified body?Deren said:Of course it's physical blood, because it was shed by a human being for humanity. But that doesn't mean that it ends up in heaven.
seed757 said:That is just it. There is nothing..NOTHING more important nor perfect, that a man possess, than man's intention to please God. That is the underlying message of Islam.
warghaha said:So you think that not answered you question. Ok, I respect your view.
But, what I'm trying to try is from the Muslims perspective. I hope you can agree on that.
In Islam, blood offering is not the way to appease God. In fact, nothing can be compared with the blessing He bestowed upon us. But He knows our sincerity within us. To do our best, to struggle our best. And God knows best.
warghaha said:Allah's Merciness.
When I said, the atonement came from within ourselves, I was tryign to be philosophical.God knews what is our intention, what we've done, etc. Based on that God will blessed us with His forgiveness. Not because of the sacrificial blood, etc.
God is Self-Sufficient. He does not required something perfect as an atonement of sins.
He create us as imperfect beings, so He already expect soemthing imperfect from us.
He know what is our limit. As long as we do the best, just remember, God is Most-Merciful, Most-Forgiving.
seed757 said:The Quran does not exalt any Prophet above the other,because they are all equal to us as their recipients of their message. Since they all had the same message, how can you put one over the other?
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