[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

Timtofly said:

Yes, you may laugh. God did not.

Daniel's false prophet was a king who sacrificed a pig on the alter.

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And WHERE exactly is the SCRIPTURE that says that?
Do you think your "feelings" can substitute for Scripture?
Is Bible study a NEW THING for you?

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5thKingdom said:

You said:
The first principal was the original serpent beast in the garden, now a disembodied spirit in the bottomless pit.

You have absolutely NO SCRIPTURE to support that nonsense
and yet you are not even embarrassed to spout such garbage.
It is just amazing to see the delusion you have developed.

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There was not a serpent beast in garden of eden who beguiled Eve and was punished for what he did - by God ?

Timtofly said:

How can you just place Daniel's time frames on the Second Coming of Christ, when John the disciple of Christ never did?

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John was following instructions to write down what he was told and saw, not making commentary.

5thKingdom said:

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Timtofly said:

Daniel's false prophet was a king who sacrificed a pig on the alter.

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You say there is a False Prophet in Daniel...
show me the chapter and verse.
Of course there is NONE

You need to STOP making things up in your head.
That is NOT "Bible Study" it is just a delusion.

But... maybe I am wrong.
Can you show ONE VERSE in Daniel that says "False Prophet"?

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5thKingdom said:

You say there is a False Prophet in Daniel...
show me the chapter and verse.
Of course there is NONE

You need to STOP making things up in your head.
That is NOT "Bible Study" it is just a delusion.

But... maybe I am wrong.
Can you show ONE VERSE in Daniel that says "False Prophet"?

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Can you show one that says antichrist? Does Daniel 11 portray one who seems to control even religion as the way people perceive gods in more a leadership role or usurper role? An antichrist is one proclaiming to be a god. As opposed to one who can speak for and juggle around gods. A prophet with discernment seems more indicative of this human. He does not outright even claim kingship. It is an underhand manipulation by a foreign god to work this gods way into the Greek pantheon. It seems to be a deal with the devil. "You promote me and my cause to your people and I will grant authority over all the other gods in the world." Daniel 11:21
21 “There will arise in his place a despicable man not entitled to inherit the majesty of the kingdom, but he will come without warning and gain the kingdom by intrigue.

Daniel 11:24
24 Without warning, he will assail the most powerful men in each province and do things his predecessors never did, either recently or in the distant past; he will reward them with plunder, spoil and wealth while devising plots against their strongholds, but only for a time.

Daniel 11:32-39
32 Those who act wickedly against the covenant he will corrupt with his blandishments, but the people who know their God will stand firm and prevail.
33 Those among the people who have discernment will cause the rest of the people to understand what is happening; nevertheless, for a while they will fall victim to sword, fire, exile and pillage.
34 When they stumble, they will receive a little help, although many who join them will be insincere.
35 Even some of those with discernment will stumble, so that some of them will be refined, purified and cleansed for an end yet to come at the designated time.
36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt himself and consider himself greater than any god, and he will utter monstrous blasphemies against the God of gods. He will prosper only until the period of wrath is over, for what has been determined must take place.
37 He will show no respect for the gods his ancestors worshipped, or for the god women worship — he won’t show respect for any god, because he will consider himself greater than all of them.
38 But instead, he will honor the god of strongholds; with gold, silver, precious stones and other costly things he will honor a god unknown to his ancestors.
39 He will deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. He will confer honor on those he acknowledges, causing them to rule over many and distributing land as a reward.

An antichrist like Christ will come as a redeemer to perhaps atone the wrath of a god. Satan offered this despicable human a chance for power and as a spokesman for all gods. Even blasphemy against the Lord God. This was not a messianic savior. This is a power grab of a prophet and this prophet's god, Satan.

Douggg said:

You are reading and going by commentary.

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I am showing that theologians who lived over 300 years ago knew about Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which prove the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
It is written plainly in scripture.

Those same people also acknowledged the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

If they had a chart, it did not look like yours.

They were not reading and going by the commentary in the Scofield Reference Bible, which is less than 150 years old. It is one of the favorite sources of those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine.



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BABerean2 said:

I am showing that theologians who lived over 300 years ago knew about Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which prove the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. It is written plainly in scripture.

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You are copying and pasting "commentary". Please acknowledge it as "commentary".

The 490 years prophecy in Daniel 9 is not about the gospel being taken to gentiles. The commentary you are copying and pasting about the gospel taken to the gentiles is "irrelevant" to the prophecy of the 490 years. The 490 years is a prophecy directed at Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem - not directed at the gentiles.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

BABerean2 said:

Those same people also acknowledged the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

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All Christians acknowledge the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Jews, however, for the major part, have not accepted the new covenant. They will in the middle part of the 7 year 70th week. The 490 year prophecy is incomplete by 7 years.

The Jews believe the "new" covenant is a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant. Which in their eyes, the prince who shall come in the near future will renew the Mt. Sinai covenant, by confirming it for the 7 years cycle by making the big speech as a requirement by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Douggg said:

You are copying and pasting "commentary". Please acknowledge it as "commentary".

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Dougg... I took a look at your chart.
I noticed you had a reference to the "Two Witnesses"

Can you DEFINE that term?
Do you know WHO the Two Witnesses represent.
Of course you MUST because you included them in your chart.

Can you please tell me/us WHO the Two Witnesses represent in history?
Thanks

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5thKingdom said:

Dougg... I took a look at your chart. I noticed you had a reference to the "Two Witnesses"

Can you DEFINE that term? Do you know WHO the Two Witnesses represent.
Of course you MUST because you included them in your chart.

Can you please tell me/us WHO the Two Witnesses represent in history?
Thanks

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The two witnesses are two individuals. The most popular consensus speculation that I have seen is that they will be Moses and Elijah.

I don't view the two witnesses as spread across history, but for first 1260 days of the 7 years. And 3 1/2 days that their bodies will lie dead in the street of Jerusalem, before coming back to life and called up to heaven. So I don't relate to the question you asked of who the two witnesses represent in history...... I may have misunderstood your question.

Are you asking me who the two witnesses were in the past ? If so, I think possibly Moses and Elijah. But that could be totally wrong. The two witnesses could simply be two end times individuals, chosen by God.

Douggg said:

Jim, I never wrote nor implied that the beast
and the false prophet is the same person.
Are you getting me confused with
what something Timtofly may have written ?

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I don't know Douggg... it could be.
My most sincere apologies.

Jim

5thKingdom said:

Poor Douggg... you are talking about the Two Witnesses... you even included them
in your precious chart... and yet you have NO IDEA who they are.

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I updated my chart btw.

Douggg said:

The 490 years is a prophecy directed at Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem - not directed at the gentiles.

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You are correct in the statement above.

So why do you continue to ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

These passages reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" (Paul's word) to the Jewish people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles?

Do you have to ignore these passages to make your chart work?

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BABerean2 said:

You are correct in the statement above.

So why do you continue to ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

These passages reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" (Paul's word) to the Jewish people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles?

Do you have to ignore these passages to make your chart work?

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The gospel of Salvation, based on Jesus's death and resurrection is not found in Daniel 9. The resurrection is not mentioned in Daniel 9, only the death of the messiah, cutoff.

The full basis for the gospel of Salvation was purposely omitted because it was to be a secret from understanding until after the fact. Kept secret from Satan, who otherwise would not have orchestrated Jesus's death.... because doing so, made it possible that God could in equal fairness judge Satan for his sin - while offering grace to man for man's sin. Satan had not anticipated Jesus's resurrection.

Douggg said:

I am only bothered when other posters here insinuate I am a dispensationlist or subscribe to dispensationalism - when I have clearly stated I am not either.

You can respond back all you want. But it is against the forum rules to call someone a dispensationalist when that person clearly states he is not.

So in your response(s) don't insinuate that I am a dispensationalist nor hold to dispensationalism. You can speak in generalities all you want.

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Oh, so there have been others that have noticed that you use dispensationalism methods. How interesting. And it's amazing.. uncanny that we could all be so wrong.

The rules are not that precise as to use it to threaten posters with being guilty of calling you a dispensationalist even though you say that you're not.

I've read plenty of posts that has one side saying that another subscribes to a certain belief with the response that the person says that they don't. It's a wonder that the thousands of discussions like that don't keep the behind the scenes people very busy with deleting reports of exaggerated violations.

I am speaking in generalities. I've stated that because of your means of putting events in a particular order that would indicate that you are using dispensationalism methods. I've stated that much of what you post is in line with dispensational derived teachings.

You have stated that you are not dispensationalist. Neither have I precisely stated that you are. You can deny that you are don't use dispensationalism methods all you like.

If you feel that I'm calling you a dispensationalist, report me, but it won't change how you put future events in the order that you do.

fwGod said:

I am speaking in generalities. I've stated that because of your means of putting events in a particular order that would indicate that you are using dispensationalism methods. I've stated that much of what you post is in line with dispensational derived teachings.

You have stated that you are not dispensationalist. Neither have I precisely stated that you are. You can deny that you are don't use dispensationalism methods all you like.

If you feel that I'm calling you a dispensationalist, report me, but it won't change how you put future events in the order that you do.

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I do not approach bible prophecy by dividing man's history into blocks called dispensations.

My chart(s) are based on the text of the bible. I hope we are through with this discussion because there is no where else for you to go with it.

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Douggg said:

I do not approach bible prophecy by dividing man's history into blocks called dispensations.

My chart(s) are based on the text of the bible. I hope we are through with this discussion because there is no where else for you to go with it.

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Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson shows the "Two Peoples of God" doctrine is the primary teaching of Dispensational Theology:


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5thKingdom said:

Poor Douggg... you are talking about the Two Witnesses... you even included them
in your precious chart... and yet you have NO IDEA who they are. That is just hilarious.


Here is the answer for you.
Read it carefully and LEARN something

(because you should not be putting something on your chart unless/until you can DEFINE it)


Rev 11:3-4
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, [representing the church age]
clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks
standing before the God of the earth.


Revelation 1:20
Christ reveals the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.

Romans 11
Paul uses the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New Testament Church.


Therefore, the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

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Is this why you think the church is dead for 3.5 days and then resurrected?

Moses represented the church in the wilderness. Elijah represented the church before the Flood and before the destruction of the two kingdoms. Moses was the lion who roared against Egypt. Elijah was the man of righteousness, who could do no sin worthy of death. Tell me one time where the church did any thing great that changed the world, and the church of the apostles does not count. There are 4 witnesses. Two candlesticks, and two olive trees. There is one church. 1 does not equal 2, nor does 1 equal 4. The church will always and only be represented by one, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ the Lord. The Lamb does not stand for 3.5 years in Jerusalem and then get killed and lay dead for 3.5 days. Neither does the church. Who witnesses these events and writes the book of Revelation? That is one witness. If you think that Jesus is the other one, that maybe, but John does not tell us, so you are just guessing. It is not a group of beings. Just two witnesses.

PS The Lamb does come. Revelation 6, the 6th seal. He has 144K Jewish male virgins sealed at that time, Revelation 7. They are his disciples while the harvest of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares are harvested. That is what John does say in Revelation. If Jesus is mentioned in the 6th seal, why would the rapture not happen when Jesus first appears? That first appearance is going to happen when least expected. There will be no warning, except soon after a quarter of the world dies in seal 4. Once all the harvest begins, John has it all written down and mapped out. Trumpets then thunders, then the Second Coming mentioned twice (chapter 14 and 19). In between those chapters the vials are poured out. It all happens in less than 6 years. People will not be shocked nor surprised after the 6th seal.

5thKingdom said:

I did NOT ask you about the Anti-Christ... so all the verses you posted mean absolutely nothing.
I asked you a very simple question, why did you not give me a simple answer?
Here... I will re-post that question again for you. Read it carefully.

You say there is a False Prophet in Daniel...
show me the chapter and verse.

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Either you ask for a chapter or verse. I gave you the chapter, and it was too much.

Why, you can just read the post again. Why do you mock, laugh, and then demand?

John says this character is a false prophet not an antichrist. Daniel does not say this dude is an antichrist. He calls this dude a "spokesman" for the "devil". This dude is allegedly the one who sacrificed a pig on the alter in the temple in Jerusalem and then was killed. This dude claims to be a Greek king. There are no kings today, except in the middle east and none of them are the re-incarnate Greek dude that Daniel prophecies.

Satan does not resurrect one human ever in the history of the world. How does Satan return mortals to life mentioned in all the false religions of the world?

You can call this dude in Daniel 11:21, whatever you wish. I think Daniel called him a jerk. A despicable (jerk) man. Or whatever word your translation uses.