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(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

stuart lawrence

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And I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to KEEP my laws
Ezekiel36:27

In rom ch 7 Paul is sold as a slave to sin/ transgressing Gods laws/statutes

He cannot do the good he wants to do but rather what he hates he does

He cannot do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do, this he keeps on doing

He has the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out.

How does Ezekiel 36:27 reflect in the life of Paul in rom ch 7?
 
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Devin P

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So how is Paul walking in Gods statutes and judgements in romch7?

He is sold as a slave to sin.

He has the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out.

He doesnt do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do this he keeps on doing

He doesn't do what he wants to do but what he hates he does

Because, as he states, he wants to keep the law. But, against his own will, he sins. Therefore, since he's not willingly sinning, he desires righteousness, and what he willingly does, is keep the law. But, what he does unwillingly, and against his own will, is sin. We are slaves to whatever we give consent to, so since he doesn't consent to his sin, he's not a slave to it. He consents to righteousness, and is a slave to righteousness.

Yes, he might still sin, but being perfect and void of sin, isn't possible for us. He desires to keep the law, out of love for the Father, and though he cannot perfectly, the important part is that he keeps his head up, and keeps growing closer more and more, all the while, placing his faith for salvation on his Savior, and not in his keeping of the law. Therefore, the fear of breaking the law, is done away with, because he's not under the law anymore, but grace. It's not that the law is done away with, but the punishment. He still however is left in hatred of the sin he commits, and is convicted of it. Not convicted to death, but convicted in the sense that it weighs on him, and he isn't able to sin without it bugging him. Sin now, isn't possible for him to live in (or rather, for him to willingly and continually do) because his heart is softened, and each sin he commits, is much more apparent and heavy for him. Therefore, each sin he does, leads him closer to his Savior, because we cannot purge ourselves of sin, only relying on the Father can do that.

Throughout my walk observing Torah, there are things that I struggle with, and I would be lying if I said that of my own accord, of my own abilities, I was able to crush these struggles. Pfft, no. Only through much prayer, and arming myself with the word have I been gifted the ability to overcome these struggles. Therefore, since every good thing is a gift from out Father, I have no right to boast about overcoming these things, because had it not been by His grace, I wouldn't have over come them, nor would I have even desired to overcome them.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Because, as he states, he wants to keep the law. But, against his own will, he sins. Therefore, since he's not willingly sinning, he desires righteousness, and what he willingly does, is keep the law. But, what he does unwillingly, and against his own will, is sin. We are slaves to whatever we give consent to, so since he doesn't consent to his sin, he's not a slave to it. He consents to righteousness, and is a slave to righteousness.

Yes, he might still sin, but being perfect and void of sin, isn't possible for us. He desires to keep the law, out of love for the Father, and though he cannot perfectly, the important part is that he keeps his head up, and keeps growing closer more and more, all the while, placing his faith for salvation on his Savior, and not in his keeping of the law. Therefore, the fear of breaking the law, is done away with, because he's not under the law anymore, but grace. It's not that the law is done away with, but the punishment. He still however is left in hatred of the sin he commits, and is convicted of it. Not convicted to death, but convicted in the sense that it weighs on him, and he isn't able to sin without it bugging him. Sin now, isn't possible for him to live in (or rather, for him to willingly and continually do) because his heart is softened, and each sin he commits, is much more apparent and heavy for him. Therefore, each sin he does, leads him closer to his Savior, because we cannot purge ourselves of sin, only relying on the Father can do that.

Throughout my walk observing Torah, there are things that I struggle with, and I would be lying if I said that of my own accord, of my own abilities, I was able to crush these struggles. Pfft, no. Only through much prayer, and arming myself with the word have I been gifted the ability to overcome these struggles. Therefore, since every good thing is a gift from out Father, I have no right to boast about overcoming these things, because had it not been by His grace, I wouldn't have over come them, nor would I have even desired to overcome them.
It doesn't matter the fact Paul states he wants to keep Gods laws in rom ch7, he is a slave to breaking them

In ez36:27 God states people will be careful to KEEP his laws/ statutes
 
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stuart lawrence

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Because, as he states, he wants to keep the law. But, against his own will, he sins. Therefore, since he's not willingly sinning, he desires righteousness, and what he willingly does, is keep the law. But, what he does unwillingly, and against his own will, is sin. We are slaves to whatever we give consent to, so since he doesn't consent to his sin, he's not a slave to it. He consents to righteousness, and is a slave to righteousness.

Yes, he might still sin, but being perfect and void of sin, isn't possible for us. He desires to keep the law, out of love for the Father, and though he cannot perfectly, the important part is that he keeps his head up, and keeps growing closer more and more, all the while, placing his faith for salvation on his Savior, and not in his keeping of the law. Therefore, the fear of breaking the law, is done away with, because he's not under the law anymore, but grace. It's not that the law is done away with, but the punishment. He still however is left in hatred of the sin he commits, and is convicted of it. Not convicted to death, but convicted in the sense that it weighs on him, and he isn't able to sin without it bugging him. Sin now, isn't possible for him to live in (or rather, for him to willingly and continually do) because his heart is softened, and each sin he commits, is much more apparent and heavy for him. Therefore, each sin he does, leads him closer to his Savior, because we cannot purge ourselves of sin, only relying on the Father can do that.

Throughout my walk observing Torah, there are things that I struggle with, and I would be lying if I said that of my own accord, of my own abilities, I was able to crush these struggles. Pfft, no. Only through much prayer, and arming myself with the word have I been gifted the ability to overcome these struggles. Therefore, since every good thing is a gift from out Father, I have no right to boast about overcoming these things, because had it not been by His grace, I wouldn't have over come them, nor would I have even desired to overcome them.
He is a slave to sin/ breaking Gods laws/ statutes, he states that in verse14
 
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Devin P

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And I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to KEEP my laws
Ezekiel36:27

In rom ch 7 Paul is sold as a slave to sin/ transgressing Gods laws/statutes

He cannot do the good he wants to do but rather what he hates he does

He cannot do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do, this he keeps on doing

He has the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out.

How does Ezekiel 36:27 reflect in the life of Paul in rom ch 7?

Because, he's being moved to keep them. Do you think when Jesus told the woman, to go and sin no more, He meant that she would never sin again? No. No one is capable of keeping the law perfectly, otherwise we wouldn't need a savior. It reflects the life of Paul, because after Jesus, he was moved to keep the law, not for salvation like once before, selfishly and arrogantly out of his own doing, but out of love of his Father. Out of love for His Spirit, because he knew that with each sin, he grieved the Holy Spirit. He doesn't want to live in sin, and each sin he commits, weighs on him more than it once did. He is being moved to keep the law, because, while he breaks it (against his own will) he desires to keep it. That's him being moved to keep it. With his will, he keeps it. But, the sin that he still commits, as he says, isn't him committing it, but sin that lives in his flesh.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Because, he's being moved to keep them. Do you think when Jesus told the woman, to go and sin no more, He meant that she would never sin again? No. No one is capable of keeping the law perfectly, otherwise we wouldn't need a savior. It reflects the life of Paul, because after Jesus, he was moved to keep the law, not for salvation like once before, selfishly and arrogantly out of his own doing, but out of love of his Father. Out of love for His Spirit, because he knew that with each sin, he grieved the Holy Spirit. He doesn't want to live in sin, and each sin he commits, weighs on him more than it once did. He is being moved to keep the law, because, while he breaks it (against his own will) he desires to keep it. That's him being moved to keep it. With his will, he keeps it. But, the sin that he still commits, as he says, isn't him committing it, but sin that lives in his flesh.
Once again. God says people would be careful to keep his laws.( Ez36:27)

Paul, in rom ch7 CANNOT do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do this he keeps on doing.

He is a slave to breaking Gods laws/ sin.

And in rom 6:16 he states if you are a slave to sin it leads to death
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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In verse 26, he's referring to the writing of the law on the hearts of his people. Then he says a stony heart out of your flesh He shall take. Note, that those that don't listen to the Father, what does He do to their hearts? As Pharaoh, he hardens their hearts. Like stones. But, those that listen to Him, their hearts are softened, as flesh.
Even as a christian, I will struggle to follow the Law.
So how is Paul walking in Gods statutes and judgements in rom ch7?

He is sold as a slave to sin/ breaking Gods laws/ statutes.

He has the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out.
To all that struggle let me help you out. Scripture never requires that we be perfect for salvation. This is the gospel message and the grace God gives us thereby showing his love for us would be unnecessary.

Paul wrestled with sin but knew it was a losing battle. Why because our nature is sinful, Romans 7:18. As Devin pointed out, our goal is to get and follow a new heart. We should still feel guilt and try to obey the law, but we should not feel as if we are one gulp away from drowning in sin.

I strongly encourage people to not think it a struggle as if our salvation depended on it. I think it more a battle that we know we will win. I can not stress it enough, that God does not expect Christians to be sinless, he is more concerned about our heart. But, a good heart wants and tries to be like God, that means trying to avoid, feeling guilty when we fail, and then asking for forgiveness.

Lastly we should look to the future age of perfection without sin and remember, on judgement day God will not judge us for our sins, but for the good we did.
 
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stuart lawrence

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To all that struggle let me help you out. Scripture never requires that we be perfect for salvation. This is the gospel message and the grace God gives us thereby showing his love for us would be unnecessary.

Paul wrestled with sin but knew it was a losing battle. Why because our nature is sinful, Romans 7:18. As Devin pointed out, our goal is to get and follow a new heart. We should still feel guilt and try to obey the law, but we should not feel as if we are one gulp away from drowning in sin.

I strongly encourage people to not think it a struggle as if our salvation depended on it. I think it more a battle that we know we will win. I can not stress it enough, that God does not expect Christians to be sinless, he is more concerned about our heart. But, a good heart wants and tries to be like God, that means trying to avoid, feeling guilty when we fail, and then asking for forgiveness.

Lastly we should look to the future age of perfection without sin and remember, on judgement day God will not judge us for our sins, but for the good we did.
Who has suggested Christ expects us to be sinless?
 
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Devin P

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It doesn't matter the fact Paul states he wants to keep Gods laws in rom ch7, he is a slave to breaking them

In ez36:27 God states people will be careful to KEEP his laws/ statutes

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

to "yield" is to consent, and since he's not consenting to the sin, he's not yielding to it. He's yielding to righteousness, therefore he's consenting to righteousness. He's a servant of righteousness, and not sin. It isn't him that's sinning, but sin that lives in him. He's not perfect, and he knows it. That's the importance of this chapter. That he isn't perfect, but he desires to be.

Where did I say you have to be perfect for salvation? All throughout this entire post, I've said that no one can perfectly keep the law, and that we aren't required to. But, that the sign of salvation, is a desire to keep the law. The verse from Ezekiel isn't saying you have to be perfect to keep the law, it's saying that it shall make you desire the keeping of it, which is exactly what Paul demonstrates. Do you honestly think when Jesus told us to "go and sin no more" he meant we could be free of sin? No, we will never be free of sin, but our desire, should reflect being free of sin. A desire, to be free of sin, not actually being free of sin. (Sorry, part of this is in response to your post I quoted, and part of it is in response to a later one I saw, so this is a reply to both of them)
 
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stuart lawrence

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Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

to "yield" is to consent, and since he's not consenting to the sin, he's not yielding to it. He's yielding to righteousness, therefore he's consenting to righteousness. He's a servant of righteousness, and not sin. It isn't him that's sinning, but sin that lives in him. He's not perfect, and he knows it. That's the importance of this chapter. That he isn't perfect, but he desires to be.

Where did I say you have to be perfect for salvation? All throughout this entire post, I've said that no one can perfectly keep the law, and that we aren't required to. But, that the sign of salvation, is a desire to keep the law. The verse from Ezekiel isn't saying you have to be perfect to keep the law, it's saying that it shall make you desire the keeping of it, which is exactly what Paul demonstrates. Do you honestly think when Jesus told us to "go and sin no more" he meant we could be free of sin? No, we will never be free of sin, but our desire, should reflect being free of sin. A desire, to be free of sin, not actually being free of sin. (Sorry, part of this is in response to your post I quoted, and part of it is in response to a later one I saw, so this is a reply to both of them)
Quote me where I said you have to be perfect.
Ezekiel 36:27 doesn't mean you will be sinless in the flesh
But it also doesn't mean you can be a slave to breaking Gods laws and at the same time be careful to keep them
 
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twinserk

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You are ignoring the points made. The Jerusalem Church did NOT( NOT) intend for gentile converts, as time went on to observe any.ore than the four laws given in Acts ch15. For yet again I will repeat. Years later they RECONFIRMED to Paul they were ONLY asking gentiles to observe FOUR Jewish laws( Acts21:25)

The Jerusalem church gave 4 laws that gentile converts must keep in order to be accepted into the community of believers.

If we follow the story from the beginning of Acts 15, we see that certain Jews came into Paul's territory and began teaching that unless you were circumcised, you couldn't be saved.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
The issue was circumcision. Paul disagreed with the men teaching, because He had been witness to the Holy Spirit being given to new gentile converts who had not been circumcised. So they resolved to go down to Jerusalem and get an official ruling from the apostles:

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Once they got there, this case was made by the Pharisees:

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Peter replied and stated that the Pharisees were attempting to yoke new converts with a burden that the apostles and their fathers were unable to bear.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The disciples kept the law of Moses. They all condemned the practice of sin, and sin is defined by John, Paul, and James, as breaking the law. Which testifies that the law is not what is being referred to as unbearable by Peter. Since they were bearing it, and teaching it to others.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

In addition, we are told by John that God's commands are not burdensome. Which gives further testimony that Peter was not speaking about the law, but of something else.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So what was Peter referring to? What was the original issue brought to the disciples? Circumcision. The Pharisees were teaching that you had to be circumcised in order to be saved. But if we look in the law, a convert to the faith had to be circumcised in order to partake of the Passover (Exodus 12:48). The Pharisees were once again trying to add additional regulations to the faith. Just as they were during the Messiah's ministry. They had created their own rules, and re-branded them as law.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So Peter struck down the Pharisees' unlawful assertions, stating that Gentiles and Jews alike are saved the same way - by grace.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.

After Peter said his part, James made an official ruling on the matter:

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

James says that once saved, gentile converts are only required to do 4 things:

1. Not pollute themselves with idolatry.
2. Not commit fornication.
3. Not eat things strangled.
4. Not eat blood.

James then conditions his statement with "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day". He was saying "They need only do these four things upon conversion. They can then learn the rest of the law at their local sabbath meetings". Gentile believers were obviously not allowed to steal, commit murder, etc., which makes this apparent. Those four things weren't the only rules for gentiles, but the minimum requirements necessary for fellowship with the community of believers.

The same template was shown to us by the Messiah. He would forgive/heal someone, tell them that they were saved, and then after that, instruct them to "go and sin no more" (keep the law). Being saved (grafted in) was just the first step of their journey. After which, they had to walk out their faith (produce fruit).

John 5:14 Afterward the Messiah findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

In conclusion, James' decree, as well as the Messiah's ministry, gives us much needed context for this discussion. To a casual observer, the word "saved" might mislead one as to what is being talked about. But James' four commands demonstrate that the subject was not "how do you get to heaven", but how someone makes the transition from unbeliever to believer. The Pharisees made the argument that you had to be circumcised in order to make that transition. Peter and James struck that down, and ruled that the Messiah's grace was all that was needed. After which, they would be held to four laws, while they learned the rest at their local assembly meetings.

Here you say it yourself ... "the entire Bible points toward Jesus."

Can you not see how a unscriptural emphasis on the Law can distract from Jesus ?

The Pharisees/Jewish religious leaders used the Law to attack Jesus and, thus, avoid acknowledging Him as Messiah.

Paul was a Pharisee. If anyone would have been devoted to the Law, he would have been. Yet, he clearly teaches that we do God's will as we are led by the Spirit, ... as opposed to observing the Law.

Galatians 2:19 For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law -- I stopped trying to meet all its requirements -- so that I might live for God. (New Living Translation)

The Law's function was/is to bring us to Jesus.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ... not the Law.

The Messiah is indeed the only way to life. The only way to the Father is through Him. And the Messiah upheld the law, and commanded those who followed Him to obey it.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Did didn't do away with the law, He said as much.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and Earth are still here, which means the law is still in effect. We see the moment the Messiah speaks of in Revelation:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.... 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Paul was also a supporter of the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul stated that sin is the breaking of the law, and he universally condemned the practice of sin. He also stated that loving our neighbor/brother is done by keeping the law - which John confirms:

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
 
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Devin P

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In rom ch7 Paul does not state sometimes he does the good he wants to do and sometimes he doesn't. He states he CANNOT do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do this he keeps on doing

Romans 7:24-25 -
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me rom the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Verses 24-25, show this struggle. That he wishes to keep the law, but due to his flesh he can't. He then asks, who can save him from this, and points to Jesus. He then shows that with his will, and his mind, he observes the law, but his flesh causes him to sin.

If you think that chapter 7 shows he doesn't do anything in the law, in Chapter 8, he shows otherwise:

The law of God is spiritual, as he says in chapter 7, and the first verse in chapter 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (So, not after the sin of the flesh, but walk after the law, and desire to do those things)

Then, verses 2 through... really just all of that chapter proves that he in fact did observe the law. It wasn't that he never observed it, it was more that he broke it and it bothered him, because he doesn't desire to break it.
 
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stuart lawrence

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You are incorrect. The Jerusalem church gave 4 laws that gentile converts must keep in order to be accepted into the community of believers.

If we follow the story from the beginning of Acts 15, we see that certain Jews came into Paul's territory and began teaching that unless you were circumcised, you couldn't be saved.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
The issue was circumcision. Paul disagreed with the men teaching, because He had been witness to the Holy Spirit being given to new gentile converts who had not been circumcised. So they resolved to go down to Jerusalem and get an official ruling from the apostles:

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Once they got there, this case was made by the Pharisees:

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Peter replied and stated that the Pharisees were attempting to yoke new converts with a burden that the apostles and their fathers were unable to bear.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The disciples kept the law of Moses. They all condemned the practice of sin, and sin is defined by John, Paul, and James, as breaking the law. Which testifies that the law is not what is being referred to as unbearable by Peter. Since they were bearing it, and teaching it to others.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

In addition, we are told by John that God's commands are not burdensome. Which gives further testimony that Peter was not speaking about the law, but of something else.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So what was Peter referring to? What was the original issue brought to the disciples? Circumcision. The Pharisees were teaching that you had to be circumcised in order to be saved. But if we look in the law, a convert to the faith had to be circumcised in order to partake of the Passover (Exodus 12:48). The Pharisees were once again trying to add additional regulations to the faith. Just as they were during the Messiah's ministry. They had created their own rules, and re-branded them as law.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So Peter struck down the Pharisees' unlawful assertions, stating that Gentiles and Jews alike are saved the same way - by grace.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.

After Peter said his part, James made an official ruling on the matter:

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

James says that once saved, gentile converts are only required to do 4 things:

1. Not pollute themselves with idolatry.
2. Not commit fornication.
3. Not eat things strangled.
4. Not eat blood.

James then conditions his statement with "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day". He was saying "They need only do these four things upon conversion. They can then learn the rest of the law at their local sabbath meetings". Gentile believers were obviously not allowed to steal, commit murder, etc., which makes this apparent. Those four things weren't the only rules for gentiles, but the minimum requirements necessary for fellowship with the community of believers.

The same template was shown to us by the Messiah. He would forgive/heal someone, tell them that they were saved, and then after that, instruct them to "go and sin no more" (keep the law). Being saved (grafted in) was just the first step of their journey. After which, they had to walk out their faith (produce fruit).

John 5:14 Afterward the Messiah findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

In conclusion, James' decree, as well as the Messiah's ministry, gives us much needed context for this discussion. To a casual observer, the word "saved" might mislead one as to what is being talked about. But James' four commands demonstrate that the subject was not "how do you get to heaven", but how someone makes the transition from unbeliever to believer. The Pharisees made the argument that you had to be circumcised in order to make that transition. Peter and James struck that down, and ruled that the Messiah's grace was all that was needed. After which, they would be held to four laws, while they learned the rest at their local assembly meetings.



The Messiah is indeed the only way to life. The only way to the Father is through Him. And the Messiah upheld the law, and commanded those who followed Him to obey it.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Did didn't do away with the law, He said as much.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and Earth are still here, which means the law is still in effect. We see the moment the Messiah speaks of in Revelation:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.... 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Paul was also a supporter of the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul stated that sin is the breaking of the law, and he universally condemned the practice of sin. He also stated that loving our neighbor/brother is done by keeping the law - which John confirms:

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
No, the leaders of the church did OT expect gentiles to learn the rest of the laws in the local churches. For years after the council of Jerusalem they reconfirmed their decision to Paul to only require gentiles to observe the four laws mentioned in Acts ch15( Acts21:25)
 
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stuart lawrence

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Romans 7:24-25 -
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me rom the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Verses 24-25, show this struggle. That he wishes to keep the law, but due to his flesh he can't. He then asks, who can save him from this, and points to Jesus. He then shows that with his will, and his mind, he observes the law, but his flesh causes him to sin.

If you think that chapter 7 shows he doesn't do anything in the law, in Chapter 8, he shows otherwise:

The law of God is spiritual, as he says in chapter 7, and the first verse in chapter 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (So, not after the sin of the flesh, but walk after the law, and desire to do those things)

Then, verses 2 through... really just all of that chapter proves that he in fact did observe the law. It wasn't that he never observed it, it was more that he broke it and it bothered him, because he doesn't desire to break it.
We are not discussing ch8, but ch7!!
 
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A_Thinker

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Did didn't do away with the law, He said as much.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and Earth are still here, which means the law is still in effect. We see the moment the Messiah speaks of in Revelation:

It's not my position that the Law is done away with.

My position is that the Law exists to point out our sin, and bring us to Jesus.
 
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Devin P

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Quote me where I said you have to be perfect.
Ezekiel 36:27 doesn't mean you will be sinless in the flesh
But it also doesn't mean you can be a slave to breaking Gods laws and at the same time be careful to keep them
The whole time after I linked that verse, you were saying Paul can't be an example of this verse, because he was sinning. You sent several posts disputing that Paul had the law written on his heart and mind, because he sinned.

Although, your explanation for your interpretation of chapter 7, might be why we are having this discussion. You don't see chapter 7 as an example of him declaring his desire to keep the Torah, while struggling with sin. But if you read chapter 7 all the way through chapter 8 to the end, you will see that it's true. It's about him struggling to be free of sin, and hating himself when he falls, all the while placing his salvation ultimately on Jesus when he does inevitably fail.
 
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Devin P

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We are not discussing ch8, but ch7!!
?

It's about context man, and chapter 8 gives context to what chapter 7 is talking about, so therefore to say that we are limiting our discussion makes no sense, considering that would limit our understanding.
 
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Devin P

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It's not my position that the Law is done away with.

My position is that the Law exists to point out our sin, and bring us to Jesus.
Absolutely agree. It definitely is. I also see it that we are to keep Torah as well though, as it's written, should we then by faith nullify the law? No, God forbid, but we fulfill the law. (paraphrase)
 
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