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The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?
Yes
So you say. I do not agree.Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.
Only the law of Ordinance was nailed to the tree the Ten Commandments were not for God Himself wrote them with His own finger both times ; Moses was not permitted by God to write them and the Ten Commandments along with the Staff of Aaron and a certain amount of Manna was placed in the Ark. We know God did not changed His mind about the First Commandment nor any of the other nine if they were we would not read "Children obey your parents written in the New Testament" See Ephesians 2:15
God was referring to to gentiles when talking to Peter for Jews considered gentiles to be unclean . read again .
Now about food it was referring to a day('s) they were by law of "ordinance ' to eat certain meats on certain day like Fish and not some other meat.
But the clean and dirty foods remain .. would you eat a Buzzard ? Fish without scales and fins are like unto a Buzzard they are scavengers.. Sea life without scales and fins feed from the Ocean floor and eating such sea life can and does cause Parasites and only Cattle, Sheep and Deer have split hooves and chews crud .
Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.
I'm not giving up my pork!So no cheeseburgers for Christians?
What we have to realise that when someone accepts Christ as Saviour, then his sinfulness is nailed to the cross of Christ, and the righteousness of Christ is bestowed on him. The convert becomes righteous because of that and not through any works of holiness he may do. If he thinks that his own efforts at holiness will make him acceptable to God, he is dreaming. His own efforts leads to self-righteousness, and that righteousness is as filthy rags before God. The only righteousness that makes a person acceptable to God is the righteousness of Christ, because He is the only Person who is sinless. This is the beauty of the gospel. Our sinfulness has been exchanged for Christ's sinless righteousness. God now sees the new convert as totally righteous and acceptable to Him because of the righteousness that has been given to him by grace working through faith in Christ.Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.
God's righteousness never changes. The definition of "righteousness" is not holiness, but acceptability to God. Jesus was totally acceptable to God because He never sinned. Therefore Jesus had total righteousness. When He became sin for us on the cross, those who accept Christ as Saviour become the righteousness of God in Christ. It is an acceptability to God that is given to us as a gift when we accept Christ and are justified by faith.Can you explain how it is possible for the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to change without God's righteousness changing?
The OT Law is an old covenant replaced with the new covenant which is the Gospel. If you are not in Christ the OT Law is not done away with for you because it is your faith in Christ which declares you righteous...this we learn in Romans 4...Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Paul goes on to say that this faith now also credits us with righteousness and so it is said that we are Abraham's descendants...children of the promise which is Christ. As such we live no longer by the OT Law...which is the letter of the Law and kills, but rather by Christ's law which is the law of the Spirit and gives life...also referred to as the "new way" in Romans 7:6. In fact Romans 7:6 makes this entire message clear. I believe you concur here, right??Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.
The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.
The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5
Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20
Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5
The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.
People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.
Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays we observe today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.
What we have to realise that when someone accepts Christ as Saviour, then his sinfulness is nailed to the cross of Christ, and the righteousness of Christ is bestowed on him. The convert becomes righteous because of that and not through any works of holiness he may do. If he thinks that his own efforts at holiness will make him acceptable to God, he is dreaming. His own efforts leads to self-righteousness, and that righteousness is as filthy rags before God. The only righteousness that makes a person acceptable to God is the righteousness of Christ, because He is the only Person who is sinless. This is the beauty of the gospel. Our sinfulness has been exchanged for Christ's sinless righteousness. God now sees the new convert as totally righteous and acceptable to Him because of the righteousness that has been given to him by grace working through faith in Christ.
God's righteousness never changes. The definition of "righteousness" is not holiness, but acceptability to God. Jesus was totally acceptable to God because He never sinned. Therefore Jesus had total righteousness. When He became sin for us on the cross, those who accept Christ as Saviour become the righteousness of God in Christ. It is an acceptability to God that is given to us as a gift when we accept Christ and are justified by faith.
I'm sorry, but I joined this website to discuss the Bible. You won't accept what is plainly written in it, so we cannot have a debate.
Paul twice plainly states in rom ch14 ALL food is clean.
The leaders of the Christian church only asked gentiles to follow four Jewish laws, three of which it is believed were given to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. So it is an unarguable fact, if you are correct, the leaders of the church gave gentiles a licence to sin.
I really do not mean to be offensive, but how can we debate the bible if you refuse to accept what is written in it by the people who wrote the NT
I've never wanted to hug someone so badly. Thank you, brother! May our Father bless you more than He already has with the wisdom He's bestowed upon you!According to Psalms 119:142, God's righteousness is eternal and therefore according to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal. So from the beginning that has always been a way to act in accordance with God's eternal righteousness, which existed before God made any covenants with man, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is not dependent on any particular covenant, though it has been revealed through them. For example, helping the poor has always been and will always be in accordance with God's righteousness regardless of which covenant, if any, someone is under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still required to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10). So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to practice righteousness and a covenant agreement to live by those instructions. A covenant agreement can come an go, but it will always be righteous to help the poor. Devin P spoke about obeying God's Law, but said nothing about placing himself back under the Mosaic Covenant.
However, according to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, and Abraham is the father of our faith, so this is how people in the OT were forgiven. The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, but rather the only way to forgive sin has always been through faith in Messiah.
The way I see it, the mundane actions and list of things to avoid-part of the law is no longer observed because it was simply meant to prove a point. That point is that one cannot consistently follow those laws and also that God does not care about us following rules, but rather He wants our complete love and devotion coming from within us.
Would you prefer a relationship with your spouse that is based on a written set of likes and dislikes?
Or would you rather that they simply loved you and everything they do is based on that love?
Maybe explaining spiritual truth in a theological debating forum isn't the done thing.
However, under the NC the law God desires you to follow is written in your mind and placed in your heart. God himself puts it there.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know and the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt conviction you sin when you wilfully transgress it, for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20
So I really don't see how, those who say we must all follow the law of Moses can consider people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin by failing to follow it.
I'm sorry, but it shows a lack of spiritual discernment concerning the outworking of the NC at its core
Ah ... a change.
So ... what God does never changes ?
And ... from the New Testament ... "do not be a stumbling-block to your brother " ... otherwise, eat as you will ...
Another change.
And this from Jesus Himself ... "A NEW commandment I give unto you ... that you love one another, ... as I have loved you."
Another change.
At another point, Jesus says that He was bringing NEW WINE, ... which could not be put into OLD WINE-SKINS.
Do you still hold to your point that God's works don't change from point to point ?
Finally, ... and I want you to know that I do not consider us to be very far off in beliefs, ... for surely I do believe that we should honour God in our doings and works. We MAY simply disagree on how BEST to achieve such a goal.
And ... I believe that obeying the Law ... and following the Spirit ... may, many times, be very similar.
To me, I see observing the Law ... as a first step ... to realizing the will of God in our lives.
For instance, it occurs to me ... that there is nothing in the Law (I think) ... that would have prompted Philip to find his way to evangelizing the Ethiopian.
So ... I ask the question ?
Do you believe that it is better to OBEY the LAW ... than to FOLLOW the SPIRIT ?
I once thought the same thing honestly, but when I read into it, Jesus fulfilled our need for the sacrifice. In all honesty, we never needed sacrifices in the first place. God never desired this to take place, technically, God called all of Israel up to Sinai, but out of fear they refused, and instead sent Moses in their place to mediate. This made them fearfully servants, and not lovingly children. They were afraid, because their faith wasn't in Him, but in themselves, otherwise that fear they viewed the Father in, would've been love, as Moses saw the Father.Then we should still be sacrificing in the temple and requiring parents to circumcise their 8 day old male children.
The product of a fulfilled law, was our savior. He fulfilled the law, and removed from us, the penalty of the breaking of the law. The curse, He did away with. We can now obey the law, without the fear of the curse, although if we willingly break the law, there will be punishment for it, which is why we should desire to obey. Not that we will necessarily go to the lake of fire if we don't obey, but even if we do make it in based on faith alone, we'll be called the least in the kingdom. Definitely not something I want to aim for - barely making the cut.the better question would be "Is the law fulfilled?" then the follow up "What is the product of a fulfilled law?"
The way I see it, the mundane actions and list of things to avoid-part of the law is no longer observed because it was simply meant to prove a point. That point is that one cannot consistently follow those laws and also that God does not care about us following rules, but rather He wants our complete love and devotion coming from within us.
Would you prefer a relationship with your spouse that is based on a written set of likes and dislikes?
This is exactly how the law is. It's contrary to our nature, our flesh. Doing it, is sacrificing our flesh, to fulfill that which God desires of us.Or would you rather that they simply loved you and everything they do is based on that love?
Jews had always kept the saturday sabbath and it is natural the custom was continued. However, in rom14:5 Paul states:I understand what you're saying, but the bible doesn't contradict itself right? Does it make sense, that the bible in chapter 15, does away with the law, but then in Acts 16:13, shows them keeping the sabbath? Would it make sense for them to condemn circumcision, when in Acts 16, Paul then circumcises Timothy?
I apologize for rubbing you the wrong way, we absolutely are speaking on the bible. You see, Acts Chapter 15, the first verse in that chapter refers to Jews saying - regarding NEW gentile converts - that unless they were circumcised by the manner of Moses, they can't be saved. When this isn't so, that's not how it goes. When a gentile is converted, they aren't expected to fulfill and know all of the law. It's a slow process. The things mentioned regarding the burdens, were the basic things they had to keep themselves from just to be able to make the cut. If someone is doing those things repetitively and they live in that manner, we as believers cannot fellowship with them. Even now. We have to get them out, and we have to have nothing to do with them.
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