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Why is it necessary to refute your PDF file when you make the following erroneous statement?So, you didn't address everything else I said about Acts 15:21, Deuteronomy 30:11, and the history that I gave you in the pdf and decided to go after 1 John 5:3??? You didn't seem to have a problem sticking to Acts 15 when it worked in your favor, but now that it doesn't you jump to other places in Scripture?
Is it being implied here that Israel and the Church are the same group? what does John 10 say? I do not read it to say those not of the fold will be brought into "this fold" (Israel). "One fold" is not reference to Israel.How many "chosen" people groups does God have? How many "flocks"?
No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?If your answer is more than one you will need to support that with Scripture.
We also know that the promise to Abraham is all nations will be blessed and not caused to be one nation.We know that Israel is chosen from all the nations on earth. We also know that the New Covenant is made with Israel. We know that Gentiles are grafted into "Israel's own olive tree". We know that Gentiles are "included into the commonwealth of Israel" thru Messiah Yeshua.
We know that God has made "both groups into one" thru Messiah Yeshua.
Is it being implied here that Israel and the Church are the same group? what does John 10 say? I do not read it tos ay those not of the fold will be brought into "this fold" (Israel). "One fold" is not reference to Israel.No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?We also know that the promise to Abraham is all nations will be blessed and not caused to be one nation.
Who or what is Israel's own Olive Tree? The Root is Jesus, not Israel. John1 5 makes this very clear. The Christian abides (lives) in Jesus by His own recorded statement. Why is this misunderstood?
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Please highlight where this passage says gentiles are included in the commonwealth of Israel.
Remember who the saints are as listed in Hebrews.
bugkiller
Chapter 2 I think. Whenever I have to find it again, I search biblegateway dot com for TORAH, and "justified" .... Wonderful results that include even more than I look for each time .....
Deut 18:15 makes no such claim. Neither does Dan 7:25. So since the premise is wrong, so is the conclusion by default.
bugkiller
A clear reading of Rom 11 and Eph 2 make it clear a Christian is not part of Israel. The Christian is graft into the Root (Jesus) in Whom we abide and He in us Jn 15. John 10 also makes it clear neither abide in Israel.
bugkiller
Is it not evident he does not believe what they teach? That should be reason enough.
bugkiller
What do you mean you guess? You have made it known that you don't believe it is with all humanity. You act like Jesus is doing gentiles a favor allowing us to get the chance to join with Jews. It is very clear that the New Covenant is with all. Jesus didn't just shed His blood for one failed chosen. We all Jew and gentile come to the foot of the Cross in the same manner. The New Testament clarifies Jeremias's statement in Jer31 and I have proven that to you. All I get is your ha! ha! Believe what you have to to justify wearing your Tztzit. Do you cut your sideburns?Then I guess the Christian isn't part of the "new" covenant since God says His "new" covenant is with the House of Israel?
He is.You act like Jesus is doing gentiles a favor allowing us to get the chance to join with Jews.
Hi BK, it is so good to have you back. For some reason I knew you would not stay away. I welcome your responses to, at first glance, what is being presented on the forum. The proof in Jer31 that we are under a new and better covenant is naturally found in the New Testament. The adversary will try to make Christians believe we are still under the laws given to Israel. Those laws had nothing to do with our salvation. They were made for Israel only and God was showing them that that covenant would end and an new one would emerge. If it were the same covenant then I don't care where it is written it would be the same one just warmed over. The evidence that we have a new covenant is as clear as the nose on my face, but to Messianics, who have been programed to believe otherwise, it is foreign. How they can miss your quoting of Eph 2:14-15 is beyond me. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;Is it being implied here that Israel and the Church are the same group? what does John 10 say? I do not read it tos ay those not of the fold will be brought into "this fold" (Israel). "One fold" is not reference to Israel.No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?We also know that the promise to Abraham is all nations will be blessed and not caused to be one nation.
Who or what is Israel's own Olive Tree? The Root is Jesus, not Israel. John1 5 makes this very clear. The Christian abides (lives) in Jesus by His own recorded statement. Why is this misunderstood?
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Please highlight where this passage says gentiles are included in the commonwealth of Israel.
Remember who the saints are as listed in Hebrews.
bugkiller
But not a jot or tittle of the law can pass until heaven and earth do, remember?Evidence enough for me the law cannot be kept.
bugkiller
You don't understand sarcasm do you?What do you mean you guess? You have made it known that you don't believe it is with all humanity. You act like Jesus is doing gentiles a favor allowing us to get the chance to join with Jews. It is very clear that the New Covenant is with all. Jesus didn't just shed His blood for one failed chosen. We all Jew and gentile come to the foot of the Cross in the same manner. The New Testament clarifies Jeremias's statement in Jer31 and I have proven that to you. All I get is your ha! ha! Believe what you have to to justify wearing your Tztzit. Do you cut your sideburns?
The one flockJohn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
We have another proof text failure here. One body in what or Who? I read one body in Jesus. I do not read one body in Israel.Rom 12:4-5 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
It seems the highlighted part of the quoted text is ignored. The bolded one body part of the text indicates what is happening here is nothing more than a presentation of texts with one body easily found in any concordance. It is not proof that the gentile becomes part of Israel.I Cor 10:16-17 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.
Nothing more than a listing of verses with the word one body in them. The text says both Jews and Greeks are baptized into one body. It does not say Jews are Israel and Greeks become Israel. The "one body" is a concept picture of Christians, not Israel.I Cor 12:12-13 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Considering the discussion this is nothing more than a general off topic quote with the phrase "one body." The context of the chapter is clearly discussing the function(s) of the Church. The verse does not claim anything about being Israel.I Cor 12:20 But now there are many members, but one body.
This verse says nothing about either group being or becoming Israel. Just another proof text failure.Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
One what? I read one Lord, one faith and one baptism. I do not read one Israel. What does Mat 28 say?Eph 4:4-5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Thank-you for quoting this verse. What body does it say we are called into? I read Christ meaning Jesus Christ. I do not read we are called into Israel.Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
We did I say or imply such a fool thing?I think the scriptures are clear, there is only one body of Messiah. Not three.
I did not say Israel is rejected. That is not part of the discussion.Rom 11:1-2a I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
They are graft into what? I read their own olive tree by the quoted verse. I fully understand "olive tree" is used to represent Israel. The discussion here is about the Root of the Olive Tree. The discussion of the subject is not Israel. The discussion is about Jesus, the Root. I have shown the Christian abides (lives) in Jesus and He in us by His own words found in John 15. This has been rejected. I wonder why.Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Not part of the discussion. At least not on my part I am discussing the Root, Jesus.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
From this text we can see that:
*Israel has not been rejected.
*Gentiles are grafted into "Israel's own olive tree".
*Once the fullness of the Gentiles has come into (grafted into) Israel, then all Israel will be saved.
Verse 12 says nothing about being part of the commonwealth of Israel. The verse also mentions being excluded from the covenants of promise meaning the covenants made wtih Abraham.Done, but you'll need to expand to see the highlights.
So I guess what Jesus called the new covenant (testament) is being rejected.Ah thanks! Found it!
Romans 2:13: For not the hearers of the Law are righteous in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law shall be declared right.
Reminds me of "shama" in Deuteronomy 6:4 that Jesus repeats in Mark 12:29. "Shama" of course meaning "hear AND obey" .
I do see Romans 2:14-15 that you were referring to also:
"For when nations, who do not have the Law, by nature do what is in the Law, although not having the Law, they are a law to themselves, who show the work of the Law written on their hearts...".
However I'm not sure Paul referring to Jeremiah 31:33, but perhaps that everyone has some concept of what is good and evil written in their hearts...like a conscience. I say this because just a few verses later in 2:17-21 Paul says:
"See you are called a Jew and rest on the Law and make your boast in God, and know the desire of God, and approve what is superior, being instructed out of the Law, and trusting that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those in darkness, an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and of the truth in the Law. You then who teach another, do you not teach yourself?"
Per Jeremiah 31:34 we will no longer be teaching one another in the "new" covenant so I'm hesitant to say that Paul is alluding to us being in the "new" covenant in Romans 2.
I will say that Jeremiah 31:34 seems to point to there not being teaching among those who are a part of Israel (those God makes His "new" covenant with). Maybe Paul is talking about those who teach the nations that have not been grafted into Israel? Something for me to think about.
Thanks for pointing these passages out!
Then I guess the Christian isn't part of the "new" covenant since God says His "new" covenant is with the House of Israel?
Perhaps a wider view of the passages surrounding Deuteronomy 18:15 will make it clearer:
Though these nations you are about to drive out listen to fortune-tellers and diviners, the L ord your God has not permitted you to do this.
15¶ “The L ord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
16 “This is what you requested from the L ord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let us not continue to hear the voice of the L ord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die! ’
17 “Then the L ord said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
18 “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 “I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to my words that he speaks in my name.
God references Horeb/Sinai here. What was God trying to do at Horeb? He was beginning to teach Israel the Law. Israel however became afraid and didn't want to be taught directly from God so that asked Moses to go up to the mountain and receive the Law so that they didn't have to hear it from God directly and be afraid of Him (Exodus 20-31). God says this is good that they said this and says that He will send a prophet like Moses and for Israel to listen to what He says. In that context it's clear that He will be like Moses because He will teach the Law to Israel as Moses did.
Concerning Daniel 7:25, whether you want to argue that the little horn is the Antichrist or not doesn't really matter. Either way, changing the Law is associated with at least a little horn that symbolizes someone/something that fights against the holy ones (7:21). Something that the Messiah still should not be associated with. Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 13:1-5, and 28:14 also make it clear that it is a sin to change the Law.
The one flock
does not indicate Israel in any way. The one Shepherd is Jesus and not Israel. The Christian listens to the Shepherd as verse 5 says. There are some other very interesting statements by Jesus in this chapter. We have another proof text failure here. One body in what or Who? I read one body in Jesus. I do not read one body in Israel.It seems the highlighted part of the quoted text is ignored. The bolded one body part of the text indicates what is happening here is nothing more than a presentation of texts with one body easily found in any concordance. It is not proof that the gentile becomes part of Israel. Nothing more than a listing of verses with the word one body in them. The text says both Jews and Greeks are baptized into one body. It does not say Jews are Israel and Greeks become Israel. The "one body" is a concept picture of Christians, not Israel.Considering the discussion this is nothing more than a general off topic quote with the phrase "one body." The context of the chapter is clearly discussing the function(s) of the Church. The verse does not claim anything about being Israel.This verse says nothing about either group being or becoming Israel. Just another proof text failure.One what? I read one Lord, one faith and one baptism. I do not read one Israel. What does Mat 28 say?
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Where does the above say anything about teaching and requiring the law to be kept or becoming part of Israel? The above is in full compliance with the promise given to Abraham about blessing all nations. The above says nothing about becoming Israel.Thank-you for quoting this verse. What body does it say we are called into? I read Christ meaning Jesus Christ. I do not read we are called into Israel.We did I say or imply such a fool thing?I did not say Israel is rejected. That is not part of the discussion.They are graft into what? I read their own olive tree by the quoted verse. I fully understand "olive tree" is used to represent Israel. The discussion here is about the Root of the Olive Tree. The discussion of the subject is not Israel. The discussion is about Jesus, the Root. I have shown the Christian abides (lives) in Jesus and He in us by His own words found in John 15. This has been rejected. I wonder why.Not part of the discussion. At least not on my part I am discussing the Root, Jesus.Verse 12 says nothing about being part of the commonwealth of Israel. The verse also mentions being excluded from the covenants of promise meaning the covenants made wtih Abraham.
Verse 14 says the middle wall of partition was broken down. This wall of partition is the covenant made with Israel at Sinai which was for a limited time (Gal 3:19).
Verse 16 says nothing about being part of Israel.
Verse 19 says: but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
It does not say fellowcitizens of Israel. I believe I asked it to be considered who the saints are in Hebrews. My mistake. I should have asked about our elders are. I consider them as saints. Of course I am talking about the list in chapter 11 many of which are not part of Israel. NTL they are considered the righteous and referred to as saints by us these days. All prior to and including Abraham are not part (citizens) of Israel, yet are of the household of God.
bugkiller
Then Acts must not be true. Not a single one of the full gentile converts were required to keep the law per the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15) and no record about it such as the Philippian jailer in chapter 16 being required to keep the law for or as a result of salvation.Then I guess the Christian isn't part of the "new" covenant since God says His "new" covenant is with the House of Israel?
There is much trouble discussing this passage here. But I will say that Jesus did not teach keeping the law is a requirement of or for salvation. I reference Jn 1:17, chapter 3 and 15:10.Perhaps a wider view of the passages surrounding Deuteronomy 18:15 will make it clearer:
Though these nations you are about to drive out listen to fortune-tellers and diviners, the L ord your God has not permitted you to do this.
15¶ “The L ord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
16 “This is what you requested from the L ord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let us not continue to hear the voice of the L ord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die! ’
17 “Then the L ord said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
18 “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 “I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to my words that he speaks in my name.
Now if you want to say a prophet like Moses, I would say the passage you quote is a reference to Paul. Jesus is God, not a prophet. Paul did the explanation of the new covenant like Moses did the covenant made at Sinai. Good calls Paul a chosen vessel in Acts.God references Horeb/Sinai here. What was God trying to do at Horeb? He was beginning to teach Israel the Law. Israel however became afraid and didn't want to be taught directly from God so that asked Moses to go up to the mountain and receive the Law so that they didn't have to hear it from God directly and be afraid of Him (Exodus 20-31). God says this is good that they said this and says that He will send a prophet like Moses and for Israel to listen to what He says. In that context it's clear that He will be like Moses because He will teach the Law to Israel as Moses did.
I would be much more careful here. Jeremiah said the covenant would change and Jesus (God) testified it did.Concerning Daniel 7:25, whether you want to argue that the little horn is the Antichrist or not doesn't really matter. Either way, changing the Law is associated with at least a little horn that symbolizes someone/something that fights against the holy ones (7:21). Something that the Messiah still should not be associated with. Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 13:1-5, and 28:14 also make it clear that it is a sin to change the Law.
Well my guess is the NT is not true by your post. So since you choose religion all I can say is pick your poison because it does not matter. But then why are you here if that is really the case?IF you are familiar with Scripture, TRUTH seems to be a very predominant and central theme.
Psalm 25:5
Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.
Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.
Psalm 91:4
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Proverbs 12:17
He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Isaiah 26:2
Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
If Adventist's teach 1 + 1 =3,
What difference does it make if one switches to ANOTHER "FLAVOR" that teaches 1 +1 =6?
Unless of course TRUTH is NOT the primary objective.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Thanks. My unplanned vacation was nice.Hi BK, it is so good to have you back. For some reason I knew you would not stay away. I welcome your responses to, at first glance, what is being presented on the forum. The proof in Jer31 that we are under a new and better covenant is naturally found in the New Testament. The adversary will try to make Christians believe we are still under the laws given to Israel. Those laws had nothing to do with our salvation. They were made for Israel only and God was showing them that that covenant would end and an new one would emerge. If it were the same covenant then I don't care where it is written it would be the same one just warmed over. The evidence that we have a new covenant is as clear as the nose on my face, but to Messianics, who have been programed to believe otherwise, it is foreign. How they can miss your quoting of Eph 2:14-15 is beyond me. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
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