[moved] Socrates and E = mc2

[MehGuy]

I sometimes wonder if people think my posts on spirituality are nonsense too, lol.

 

[Arthra]

sting thread ... Caves make for an interesting discussion...

Wikipedia has this summary of the "Allegory of the Cave": Plato has Socrates describe a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them, and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners' reality. Socrates explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall are not reality at all, for he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the manufactured reality that is the shadows seen by the prisoners. The inmates of this place do not even desire to leave their prison; for they know no better life.[1]

I read the Allegory many years ago .... It made sense to me then... How one could be liberated from the shadow reality. To me a very similar analogy was made by Juan de la Cruz:
When they are in such a place, therefore, they should forget it and strive to be inwardly with God, as though they were not in that place at all. For, if they be attached to the pleasure and delight of the place, as we have said, they are seeking refreshment of sense and instability of spirit rather than spiritual repose. The anchorites and other holy hermits, who in the most vast and pleasing wildernesses selected the smallest places that sufficed for them, built there the smallest cells and caves, in which to imprison themselves.

(St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel)

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

I was brought up in the military and lived some of my days up in the Yankee north. While up there I knew folk who had not a bit of Spiritual E/c2. They had filled their spiritual man with everything but. I have often wondered if climate and spiritual E/c2 are related. Does a warmer environment make for a warmer spiritual man?

The nations should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us... Acts 17:27

feel - psēlaphaō in the Greek - To verify by contact

Spiritual E/c2... I do not think that we can use intelligence to convince an atheist that there is indeed a God. Unless his heart is motivated and warmed with love, faith, hope, charity, and joy there is no hope at all of convincing him of God. All the arguments we can think up simply will not do. He must experience God for himself on a spiritual level. To feel after him so to speak...

 

[Alex C]

Hi there. Interesting attempt to relate E = mc2 to spirituality. I guess no spirituality = darkness and no energy. But I actually think that no human has no spirituality.
In terms of convincing atheists, I think there are different perspectives on whether trying to convince someone else helps. Is it God's work or do other people have a role to play?
This thread started with Socrates. I've been struggling with Justin Martyr's idea that Socrates was a Christian (from his First apology). I understand what he's saying, that Socrates has some Christian beliefs and behaved at times like a Christian. I'm just trying to work out my response to it. Some traditions might say he wasn't baptised so no he wasn't a Christian. But then he didn't know about baptism and it was before Jesus' command to get baptised. Other traditions would say that salvation and faith are gifts: the key question is “Did God give Socrates faith and salvation? Did God call him?” The answer is we don't know. This perspective takes away the emphasis on whether or not Socrates believed or behaved like a Christian, and instead focuses on God's actions: did God make him a Christian? This is good because it stops us examining people's lives and beliefs and pick apart whether or not they believe, and instead forces us to look towards God, which is where our focus should be. Let God judge: not our place. Hmmm. Any thoughts? Cheers, Alex

 

[rockytopva]

William Seymour's path to the spiritual E/c2. Which is the only way I know to explain it. Having experienced these things myself I can tell you that it is an energy and a light that comes into the spirit. Critics of this philosophy simply have lived their lives and darkness and have never experienced these things for themselves. As far as the formula, I would say that when the son gives off her light and energy the effects are light and energy and not some mathematical formula. Here is a way to spiritual E/c2 brainstormed by William Seymour....

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

A Path to Caritas (Latin for love in the purest form)... Things that cannot be taught for virtue is not knowledge!

1. Hope - All things begin with a hope
2. Faith - Motivation is a child of faith and hope
3. Charis - Grace - A powerful neighbor of caritas
4. Dynamos - Greek for virtue and motivation
5. Eucharisteo - Much grace... Gratitude
6. Charisomai - Well favored - A lucky kind of feeling
7. Euchrestos - Greek for profitable
8. Chairo - Greek for cheer - "Cheerio mate!"
9. Chara - Greek for joy
10. Chrestotes - An 'Aunt Bee' kind of Goodness
11. Charisma - Heavenly Graciousness
12. Chrisma - Heavenly Anointing - The Holy Grail!
13. Christians - The anointed people
14. Christ - The anointed one!

Stay in the inner temple by feeding yourself with the above virtues, the word of God, prayer, and praise, and you will eventually feel the things pertaining to the spiritual E/c2!

 

[rockytopva]

Hi there. Interesting attempt to relate E = mc2 to spirituality. I guess no spirituality = darkness and no energy. But I actually think that no human has no spirituality.
In terms of convincing atheists, I think there are different perspectives on whether trying to convince someone else helps. Is it God's work or do other people have a role to play?
This thread started with Socrates. I've been struggling with Justin Martyr's idea that Socrates was a Christian (from his First apology). I understand what he's saying, that Socrates has some Christian beliefs and behaved at times like a Christian. I'm just trying to work out my response to it. Some traditions might say he wasn't baptised so no he wasn't a Christian. But then he didn't know about baptism and it was before Jesus' command to get baptised. Other traditions would say that salvation and faith are gifts: the key question is “Did God give Socrates faith and salvation? Did God call him?” The answer is we don't know. This perspective takes away the emphasis on whether or not Socrates believed or behaved like a Christian, and instead focuses on God's actions: did God make him a Christian? This is good because it stops us examining people's lives and beliefs and pick apart whether or not they believe, and instead forces us to look towards God, which is where our focus should be. Let God judge: not our place. Hmmm. Any thoughts? Cheers, Alex

I believe that Socrates is known of God. Not quite the Christian, but I do believe he is in favor with God.

 

[rockytopva]

Hi there. Interesting attempt to relate E = mc2 to spirituality. I guess no spirituality = darkness and no energy. But I actually think that no human has no spirituality.
In terms of convincing atheists, I think there are different perspectives on whether trying to convince someone else helps. Is it God's work or do other people have a role to play?
This thread started with Socrates. I've been struggling with Justin Martyr's idea that Socrates was a Christian (from his First apology). I understand what he's saying, that Socrates has some Christian beliefs and behaved at times like a Christian. I'm just trying to work out my response to it. Some traditions might say he wasn't baptised so no he wasn't a Christian. But then he didn't know about baptism and it was before Jesus' command to get baptised. Other traditions would say that salvation and faith are gifts: the key question is “Did God give Socrates faith and salvation? Did God call him?” The answer is we don't know. This perspective takes away the emphasis on whether or not Socrates believed or behaved like a Christian, and instead focuses on God's actions: did God make him a Christian? This is good because it stops us examining people's lives and beliefs and pick apart whether or not they believe, and instead forces us to look towards God, which is where our focus should be. Let God judge: not our place. Hmmm. Any thoughts? Cheers, Alex

The E= mc2 relationship never goes down good with carnal man. Could it be that their hearts have become hardened against it? Could it be that there is a wall preventing and inhibiting the spiritual light and energy from getting in? And I must also cry along with Plato...

"He whom love touches not walks in darkness," - Plato

 

[rockytopva]

"To the illuminated mind the whole world burns and sparkles with light." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

We can look a the formula and conclude that all mass is basically light and energy. When the sun gives her output of energy and light it does not spit out mathematical formulas but actual energy and light. When a soul is on fire it does not spit out mathematical formulas but actual warmth, motivation, zeal, love, joy, enthusiasm, etc. Only when a mind is on fire does it spit out mathematical calculations.

 

[FredVB]

You cannot build a religion, a doctrine, a utopian society, a culture, or anything else superior... And leave the spiritual aspects out of it!

I don't know about each and every religion and doctrine for that to be true, yet a utopian society was the goal for such things as atheistic communism, and societies and culture might happen to be, without the spiritual aspects, there are many individuals around that could have society and culture among them who do not show spiritual aspects. But in such case that would really be sad for missing.

Albert Einstein himself worried about this....

"The real problem is in the hearts and minds of men. It is not a problem of physics, but of ethics. It is easier to denature plutonium than to denature the evil spirit of man. What frightens us is not the explosive power of the atom bomb, but the equally explosive powers of human personalities..." - Albert Einstein

This is really of concern with the current political situation. It's ironic it came to this to an extent in the name of concerns of having a spiritual aspect.

 

[FredVB]

I actually think that no human has no spirituality.
In terms of convincing atheists, I think there are different perspectives on whether trying to convince someone else helps. Is it God's work or do other people have a role to play?
This thread started with Socrates. I've been struggling with Justin Martyr's idea that Socrates was a Christian (from his First apology). I understand what he's saying, that Socrates has some Christian beliefs and behaved at times like a Christian. I'm just trying to work out my response to it. Some traditions might say he wasn't baptised so no he wasn't a Christian. But then he didn't know about baptism and it was before Jesus' command to get baptised. Other traditions would say that salvation and faith are gifts: the key question is “Did God give Socrates faith and salvation? Did God call him?” The answer is we don't know. This perspective takes away the emphasis on whether or not Socrates believed or behaved like a Christian, and instead focuses on God's actions: did God make him a Christian? This is good because it stops us examining people's lives and beliefs and pick apart whether or not they believe, and instead forces us to look towards God, which is where our focus should be. Let God judge: not our place. Hmmm. Any thoughts? Cheers, Alex

There is a spiritual side to unbelievers, at least in many cases. But with coming to Christ as a believer, there is a new spirit with this, and no longer the old spirit. The old nature remains though, to overcome. For talking with atheists, it seems there can be different approaches taken for different cases. But using testimony of God's work in lives would be of great value, there is overwhelming logic that God is there, and more further that it is Yahweh, but atheists generally are very much resisting these. Indeed it is God's work to have such, or any, coming to him through Christ and his accomplishments. It is shown pretty clearly, especially with Hebrews 11, that there were people in old testament times, that is, in times before Jesus Christ came, who were saved, they must have recognized there is God, and something of their shortcomings, and need of redemption, with faith in God for that way. With this and having repentance God did provide the way, not wanting any to perish (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[Alex C]

It is shown pretty clearly, especially with Hebrews 11, that there were people in old testament times, that is, in times before Jesus Christ came, who were saved

Thanks Fred for pointing me back to the Bible. You're right, it seems clear that some OT characters were saved: "God is not ashamed to be their God ... They died in faith" (Hebrews 11) "God had already accepted Abraham and declared him to be righteous" (Romans 4:11). God is the judge, and he declared their faith to be "enough" even though they didn't believe in Jesus.

I think this is the start of a massive journey for me in "What does it mean to be saved?" And at the moment, I think the answer is believing and acting in line with what God wants, even if this is partial. Catholics believe someone who hasn't heard the gospel and yet "seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it" is saved by baptism: they'd want to be baptised if they knew of it (Catcechism, para 1260). I've heard Baptists quote Luke 10:13 where Jesus knows what Tyre and Sidon would have done had they witnessed miracles in support of the possibility of the "unlearned" being saved. Part of me objects: "Isn't this waffly and liberal?" Part of me admits: God is very gracious and wise: who am I to say someone isn't saved? Which impacts on the debate about open communion.

Thank you very much for responding. I really need mature folk to debate theology with, to drive me towards God, "iron sharpens iron", and because I think it'll help me build my identity and strength. Any other things you're involved in debating? Cheers, Alex

 

[FredVB]

I think this is the start of a massive journey for me in "What does it mean to be saved?" And at the moment, I think the answer is believing and acting in line with what God wants, even if this is partial. Catholics believe someone who hasn't heard the gospel and yet "seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it" is saved by baptism: they'd want to be baptised if they knew of it (Catcechism, para 1260). I've heard Baptists quote Luke 10:13 where Jesus knows what Tyre and Sidon would have done had they witnessed miracles in support of the possibility of the "unlearned" being saved. Part of me objects: "Isn't this waffly and liberal?" Part of me admits: God is very gracious and wise: who am I to say someone isn't saved? Which impacts on the debate about open communion.

Thank you very much for responding. I really need mature folk to debate theology with, to drive me towards God, "iron sharpens iron", and because I think it'll help me build my identity and strength. Any other things you're involved in debating? Cheers, Alex

I finally come to this and will respond, hopefully you still see it when it is useful.

To be saved is with coming to the redemption to God, made possible through Christ, with having faith seeing that need, with repenting of the sinful life had contrary to God. I may yet define it better if asked about points, but it is inclusive of believing Christians, who heard the gospel of Christ, with responding rightly in faith, and those who had not yet heard that gospel, that from what can be known of God that is made manifest, such that God's invisible attributes are known from the things that are made (Romans 1:19-20), they respond with that repentance with the essential faith, trusting God with redemption made possible from God.

I am involving myself in many discussions relating the faith. I might emphasize that just as is repeated, that God's will be here in this world as it is in Heaven, there is that perfect will which is seen indeed in Heaven, that was put with Yahweh God's design here in this world originally, and though we are in the world corrupted with the curse, from the rebellion of all of us of humanity to God, with faith coming to God that will of God as it is in Heaven should start with us, in our lives, and as far as it may be done still going to what was in that perfect design that there was for us to start with, not contributing to the problems in this world with any of our choices, as far as possible, and doing things for betterment.

 

[rockytopva]

I sometimes wonder if people think my posts on spirituality are nonsense too, lol.

Spirituality is neither mass nor knowledge. Therefore it cannot be taught or purchased. Spirituality is non-sense as it is not knowledge. Sometimes, for example, when you fall in love with someone you find yourself doing irrational things.

 

[FredVB]

Spirituality is neither mass nor knowledge. Therefore it cannot be taught or purchased. Spirituality is non-sense as it is not knowledge. Sometimes, for example, when you fall in love with someone you find yourself doing irrational things.

Spirituality is not itself logic. It is beyond logic. The same can be said of faith. But that which is really needed follows logic which is there, and the reasons are important, and needed. Christian faith really has basis. Logic is useful on this level. But if it is only that, it is knowledge without faith. Living faith involves spirituality, and is lived out with spiritual virtues, with trust in Yahweh God to go past what logic shows what to choose to do.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

To pass from the darkness into the upper world is to escape the clutches of darkness and discover light and energy on a natural, mental, and spiritual level.

Try applying that thought to the nature of God.

 

[Alex C]

I finally come to this and will respond, hopefully you still see it when it is useful.

To be saved is with coming to the redemption to God, made possible through Christ, with having faith seeing that need, with repenting of the sinful life had contrary to God. I may yet define it better if asked about points, but it is inclusive of believing Christians, who heard the gospel of Christ, with responding rightly in faith, and those who had not yet heard that gospel, that from what can be known of God that is made manifest, such that God's invisible attributes are known from the things that are made (Romans 1:19-20), they respond with that repentance with the essential faith, trusting God with redemption made possible from God.

I am involving myself in many discussions relating the faith. I might emphasize that just as is repeated, that God's will be here in this world as it is in Heaven, there is that perfect will which is seen indeed in Heaven, that was put with Yahweh God's design here in this world originally, and though we are in the world corrupted with the curse, from the rebellion of all of us of humanity to God, with faith coming to God that will of God as it is in Heaven should start with us, in our lives, and as far as it may be done still going to what was in that perfect design that there was for us to start with, not contributing to the problems in this world with any of our choices, as far as possible, and doing things for betterment.

Thank you, Fred. I appreciate your effort in putting all this down. I find your sentences quite long and difficult to follow sometimes but I think I am poor at communicating. This was an encouragement to choose the right way. Thank you.