[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

[eclipsenow]

There's nothing bad about using money as a means of exchange. There are also so many questions in there that have not been addressed I'll repeat my post.

But Esau was treating God's special plan for his family with contempt by rushing into that deal. He should never have done it. We, however, have a responsibility to work hard and provide for our families. It's a biblical responsibility as Paul shows. So again, what if it's the left hand or back of the head? In other words, how literally are you going to read this stuff, and are you going to be consistent? Years ago the bankcard symbol had 3 b's inside each other = 666 in the logo, or so some hypersensitive Christians thought. How literal?

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

If this is about first century Rome, it could be symbolic language describing how some might have paid for tickets to the arena where the emperor's image was to be worshipped and Christians killed as sport. Dr Paul Barnett (Christian historian) says they carried a little tablet as a ticket to enter. The forehead? Could be symbolic of ownership, and not something that actually happened to visitors to the arena. For instance, are we all going to end up with actual, literal writing on our foreheads for all eternity, or is that symbolic of God's ownership of us in heaven?

Rev 14?
"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

Jesus does not have 7 eyes and 7 horns, as it is an image describing his perfect (7) knowledge (eyes) and power (horns). See how this imagery works? Yet people want to rob it of theological power to be a sermon relevant to all Christians in all ages, and turn it into a literalistic timetable for our very special generation. But in wanting it to be all about us, they're robbing it from having anything relevant to say to 2000 years of Christians.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

There's nothing bad about using money as a means of exchange. There are also so many questions in there that have not been addressed I'll repeat my post.

It's true that using money is not the problem. Jesus said the problem was our motivation in working to get more of it. He went so far as to say that we cannot work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy) without cheating on one or the other (Matthew 6:24). This makes sense in practical terms.

Why should spouses not charge for the help they offer one another? If the wife prepares a meal why doesn't the husband pay her and if the husband washes the car why does she not pay him? If the system works, then surely it should be applied within the family, too?

 

[eclipsenow]

It's true that using money is not the problem. Jesus said the problem was our motivation in working to get more of it. He went so far as to say that we cannot work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy) without cheating on one or the other (Matthew 6:24). This makes sense in practical terms.

Why should spouses not charge for the help they offer one another? If the wife prepares a meal why doesn't the husband pay her and if the husband washes the car why does she not pay him? If the system works, then surely it should be applied within the family, too?

So you're just going to repeat your themes, and not deal with the theological implications of Revelation that I've been asking about?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So you're just going to repeat your themes, and not deal with the theological implications of Revelation that I've been asking about?

Our relationship to materialism and money is very much consistent with the Revelation, especially the Mark of the Beast, which is described as a means of controlling buying and selling.

In chapter 19 an angel tells John that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy. The opening sentence of the Revelation declares it to be a revelation of Jesus. It's not a repetition of themes so much as an insistence that the teachings of Jesus be included.

 

[eclipsenow]

So again, what if it's the left hand or back of the head? In other words, how literally are you going to read this stuff, and are you going to be consistent? Years ago the bankcard symbol had 3 b's inside each other = 666 in the logo, or so some hypersensitive Christians thought. How literal?

 

[keras]

Global Warming, or as it had to be re-named... blah blah blahYeah, want some prejudice with your scientific ignorance? ha ha ha. If you want to actually discuss the science of it, there are plenty of climate threads in the science sub forum. I'll not have this thread derailed by your anti-science rhetoric.

If that's the case, then remove the propaganda rubbish at the bottom of each of your posts.

 

[keras]

Zechariah 6:15 Men from far away will come and work on building the Temple of the Lord.....
They did. Rome. Then they destroyed it. Now it's gone.

They did build the 2nd Temple after the return from Babylon. But verse 15 is a prophecy for the future. Confirmed by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1. Ezekiel 40-44 give the details for this new Temple and it's glory will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So again, what if it's the left hand or back of the head? In other words, how literally are you going to read this stuff, and are you going to be consistent? Years ago the bankcard symbol had 3 b's inside each other = 666 in the logo, or so some hypersensitive Christians thought. How literal?

"What if's" and hypotheticals are fine when it comes to speculation but at some point we should consider the practical evidence, too. There's a reason why we're told to watch and be aware.

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, it's no longer any mystery, or even a genuine debate that a cashless society is on the table. It's currently in the process of happening. That's how all monetary change works; it takes time for new systems to evolve and for people to grow accustomed to them. Thousands of years ago people traded in gold coins. Now they trade in electronic impulses. While the principle has always stayed the same, the methods have gone through many changes, from gold coins to silver, coins of lesser metals, cash, checques, credit cards, smart cards, internet banking, phone banking wrist watch banking and a multitude of other similar devices convenient for the hand.

Microchip implants are a natural progression of this change. Eventually they will be seen as normal. It also makes sense that as this new system progresses it will become more efficient. At some point a location on the body will become standardized. That just makes sense. It would be a sloppy system indeed with people putting microchips where ever they want. You'd get eccentrics and goofballs putting them in the buttocks or their feet or where ever, causing delays, problems and hassles for other customers as well as merchants.

The hand is the most convenient location on the body for ease of mobility and the majority of the world is right handed so it makes sense to standardize the right hand. The forehead could act as a secondary location for amputees or other such exceptions. Or, it may just end up becoming a trendy thing to use the forehead. Who knows what kind of fashion sense people will have.

There are plenty of what if's, but there's also more and more evidence coming to light to eliminate some of those what if's from the realm of reasonable possibility.

 

[eclipsenow]

They did build the 2nd Temple after the return from Babylon. But verse 15 is a prophecy for the future. Confirmed by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1. Ezekiel 40-44 give the details for this new Temple and it's glory will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

Except that 2 Thessalonians was probably written BEFORE 70AD when the 2nd temple was destroyed. So remind me again: why did Jesus try and trick the disciples by telling them that the temple they could see with their own eyes, the 2nd temple, would be destroyed, only to rave about a still hypothetical third temple over 2000 years later? hmmmm?

 

[eclipsenow]

"What if's" and hypotheticals are fine when it comes to speculation but at some point we should consider the practical evidence, too. There's a reason why we're told to watch and be aware.

Concerning the Mark of the Beast, it's no longer any mystery, or even a genuine debate that a cashless society is on the table. It's currently in the process of happening. That's how all monetary change works; it takes time for new systems to evolve and for people to grow accustomed to them. Thousands of years ago people traded in gold coins. Now they trade in electronic impulses. While the principle has always stayed the same, the methods have gone through many changes, from gold coins to silver, coins of lesser metals, cash, checques, credit cards, smart cards, internet banking, phone banking wrist watch banking and a multitude of other similar devices convenient for the hand.

Microchip implants are a natural progression of this change. Eventually they will be seen as normal. It also makes sense that as this new system progresses it will become more efficient. At some point a location on the body will become standardized. That just makes sense. It would be a sloppy system indeed with people putting microchips where ever they want. You'd get eccentrics and goofballs putting them in the buttocks or their feet or where ever, causing delays, problems and hassles for other customers as well as merchants.

The hand is the most convenient location on the body for ease of mobility and the majority of the world is right handed so it makes sense to standardize the right hand. The forehead could act as a secondary location for amputees or other such exceptions. Or, it may just end up becoming a trendy thing to use the forehead. Who knows what kind of fashion sense people will have.

There are plenty of what if's, but there's also more and more evidence coming to light to eliminate some of those what if's from the realm of reasonable possibility.

You didn't answer the question.
1. What if it's the left hand or back of head or elbow or ear or foot? Do we still go to hell for all eternity over something like that? (If the Lord can forgive some of my own sins, then surely he can forgive a misunderstanding about the location of a chip? Or is this more about trusting in worldly wealth and mammon, and more like everything Jesus said in the NT about serving God, not wealth? In other words, is this a normal gospel warning restated rather than demonising some money technology?)
2. Are we going to have literal writing on our foreheads for all eternity?

 

[eclipsenow]

If that's the case, then remove the propaganda rubbish at the bottom of each of your posts.

No. When every year is hotter than the year before, and when CO2 has been proven time and again to trap heat, then I maintain my right as a free citizen to have this as my signature. If you doubt CO2 can trap heat, go to a physics lab and ask them about it. Stop the conspiracy theory paranoia, and start thinking.

 

[Postvieww]

There's nothing bad about using money as a means of exchange. There are also so many questions in there that have not been addressed I'll repeat my post.

But Esau was treating God's special plan for his family with contempt by rushing into that deal. He should never have done it. We, however, have a responsibility to work hard and provide for our families. It's a biblical responsibility as Paul shows. So again, what if it's the left hand or back of the head? In other words, how literally are you going to read this stuff, and are you going to be consistent? Years ago the bankcard symbol had 3 b's inside each other = 666 in the logo, or so some hypersensitive Christians thought. How literal?

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

If this is about first century Rome, it could be symbolic language describing how some might have paid for tickets to the arena where the emperor's image was to be worshipped and Christians killed as sport. Dr Paul Barnett (Christian historian) says they carried a little tablet as a ticket to enter. The forehead? Could be symbolic of ownership, and not something that actually happened to visitors to the arena. For instance, are we all going to end up with actual, literal writing on our foreheads for all eternity, or is that symbolic of God's ownership of us in heaven?

Rev 14?
"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

Jesus does not have 7 eyes and 7 horns, as it is an image describing his perfect (7) knowledge (eyes) and power (horns). See how this imagery works? Yet people want to rob it of theological power to be a sermon relevant to all Christians in all ages, and turn it into a literalistic timetable for our very special generation. But in wanting it to be all about us, they're robbing it from having anything relevant to say to 2000 years of Christians.

No one on this forum I’ve read claims there is no symbolism in scripture but a few elevate symbolism far too highly.

Does Christ have 7 horns seems to be a catch phrase around here well let’s look at the verse.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


This verse is full of symbols Jesus is not a literal “lamb” but with just a little common sense one can figure out what is meant by the symbols, the same for the seven horns and seven spirit of God.

The problem here in this discussion is symbols on steroids. You made this comment: “people want to rob it of theological power to be a sermon relevant to all Christians in all ages, and turn it into a literalistic timetable for our very special generation. But in wanting it to be all about us, they're robbing it from having anything relevant to say to 2000 years of Christian”.

It appears to me preterism is designed to rob believers of the hope of a future resurrection, a literal return of our Lord, the ability to discern the signs of the times an know those promises are near.

It is claimed the resurrection took place in 70 AD. With no empty graves to show, that proves that it actually happened, all we have are the hollow claims it was some kind of spiritual resurrection. Is that the type of resurrection taught and believed by those written about and who actually penned our scriptures? I think not. Job 19:25-26, Daniel 12:2, John 6:39-40, John 6:44, John 6:54,look closely at John 11:11-25. When Martha in verse 24 mentioned the resurrection at the last day, do you really think she was referring to some spiritual resurrection she needed a miracle, Lazarus was dead.

Revelation 12:7-9 we find Michael fought against the dragon. What this a literal dragon, no , but we are told in verse 9 it is satan.

Other that your aversion to anything in Revelation being literal, show me one scriptural or scientific fact, since you are a man of science, that says we cannot believe Revelation 13:16-17 can be taken literal.

Your explanation of an arena ticket is about the worst attempt at undermining the validity of scripture I’ve ever witnessed. This hopeless theory tries to have a literal ticket in hand and a symbolic mark in the forehead for ownership. How do you write this in good conscience?

My brother, Jesus did not return in 70 AD as described 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19 . There was no resurrection of the dead in Christ in 70 AD. Jesus will return , literally, and bodily in our future. That is what scripture teaches. You speak as one who has great understanding of scripture and ask us to believe Rev 13 is about an arena ticket????? God help you and all of us to have wisdom, understanding and discernment.


By the way there are real scientists that debunk this global warming farce it is not settled science.

 

[eclipsenow]

No one on this forum I’ve read claims there is no symbolism in scripture but a few elevate symbolism far too highly.

Does Christ have 7 horns seems to be a catch phrase around here well let’s look at the verse. Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This verse is full of symbols Jesus is not a literal “lamb” but with just a little common sense one can figure out what is meant by the symbols, the same for the seven horns and seven spirit of God. ​

Glad you can at least recognise the symbols in this verse.

The problem here in this discussion is symbols on steroids. You made this comment: “people want to rob it of theological power to be a sermon relevant to all Christians in all ages, and turn it into a literalistic timetable for our very special generation. But in wanting it to be all about us, they're robbing it from having anything relevant to say to 2000 years of Christian”.​

And I stand by everything I said!

It appears to me preterism is designed to rob believers of the hope of a future resurrection, a literal return of our Lord, the ability to discern the signs of the times an know those promises are near.​

You've never heard of Partial Preterism, the respected theological position of most of the Reformers?

It is claimed the resurrection took place in 70 AD. ​

Show me where I said that?

Other that your aversion to anything in Revelation being literal, show me one scriptural or scientific fact, since you are a man of science, that says we cannot believe Revelation 13:16-17 can be taken literal.​

Um, the entire genre of the entire book says it is not literal! It's like reading parts of a book of Shakespeare's sonnets as love poems, and then half way through suddenly shifting gears and declaring it is an engineering manual. Sorry pal, but with Jesus as a 7eyed 7horned space-lamb, the burden of proof is yours. You have to prove anything in the book being literal! That does not mean I'm saying nothing in the book is TRUE, please learn the difference between truth and the different genres that can express that truth!

Your explanation of an arena ticket is about the worst attempt at undermining the validity of scripture I’ve ever witnessed. ​

Wow, you must not be reading much. There's far worse in these futurist forums right here!

This hopeless theory tries to have a literal ticket in hand and a symbolic mark in the forehead for ownership. How do you write this in good conscience? ​

Because Dr Paul Barnett, a man I have met, had a Phd in Ancient History, led tours of the Bible Lands, and was Bishop of North Sydney for many years. The symbolism here is about cowardly betrayers of the gospel who buy their way into the arena where the False Prophet, the Asia Minor leader of the Caesar cult, was killing Christians. Carrying that stone "ticket" bought them respect in the eyes of the Roman authorities, but pretending to cheer as their former Christian brothers and sisters were murdered before their eyes showed who they were really trusting, and really fearing, and really revering. Caesar! The mark on the forehead is a metaphor for being owned. (The irony here is they are owned by what they use to belong to the Roman society and own other things). How do we know the mark on the forehead is a metaphor? Because in the very next chapter, God's people are owned by Him, and marked on the forehead by him. So unless you're going to announce to us all that we're literally going to have 2 names written on our foreheads for all eternity, try to be consistent!

My brother, Jesus did not return in 70 AD as described 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19 . There was no resurrection of the dead in Christ in 70 AD. Jesus will return , literally, and bodily in our future. That is what scripture teaches. ​

You need to calm down a bit and read about Partial Preterism. Most Sydney Anglicans are Partial Preterists.

You speak as one who has great understanding of scripture and ask us to believe Rev 13 is about an arena ticket????? God help you and all of us to have wisdom, understanding and discernment.​

You speak as one who has great understanding, and ask us to believe John didn't mean SOON, TIME IS NEAR, and that he SHARED THEIR TRIBULATION? You want us to believe he basically said, "You guys think you have it rough? Wait till you hear what happens in 2000 years?" Really? Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells!

YES, Revelation shows us glimpses of the Lord's return. But it's a sermon of encouragement, not a timetable. It's reminding us of the FACT that the Lord will return, but in repeated images and metaphors, and from different angles. It was reminding the Roman Christians that one day the Lord would return and judge that great Babylon, Rome, along with all the other enemies of God down through the ages.

By the way there are real scientists that debunk this global warming farce it is not settled science.

By the way, I know that, and they ARE real scientists, but they tend to be geologists or gynecologists or dental surgeons and NOT climatologists. It's very American Republican to doubt the settled science of climate change. It's a particular American and Australian right-wing problem. It's shameful.

 

[Salem]

"What if's" and hypotheticals are fine when it comes to speculation but at some point we should consider the practical evidence, too. There's a reason why we're told to watch and be aware.

Microchip implants are a natural progression of this change. Eventually they will be seen as normal. It also makes sense that as this new system progresses it will become more efficient.

It's a little creepy, when you realize you can shop all day with a debit or credit card, down to gas pumps and some vending machines now. I wish I knew more about the technology, but have thought RFID the quickest and most economical implementation, that it would be easier to retrofit such as gas pumps to radio frequency scanning, as opposed to having to install some other visual scanning system? But all the technology of the banking system is now in place, a restrictive system of commerce a stone's throw from easy implementation. I've been amazed how quickly new store checkout technology can start appearing everywhere, like touchscreens did. But something about RFID, isn't it true the chips can be scanned from some distance? Why would there be a need to the chip to be in a hand or forehead, unless the mark were something else that needs to be scanned in proximity? The word for "mark" in Revelation also implies something imprinted, stamped. By scripture, this could make one lean more towards the sort of scanning done of barcodes. That would be easy enough to put in place, most checkouts already having those hand held scanning guns for big items. It occurs to me the mark would not have to be tied to the transaction in a monetary sense: nothing would have to change in the banking arrangement, if the mark were simply permission to proceed with commerce the usual way we do now, but needing a mark of allegiance. It may be as simple as a 666 stamp, Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Whatever the case, we can see these things before us, unlike other generations.

Another technological impossibility in previous times involves this, Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. How could the whole world see the dead bodies of the two witnesses, before satellite television, also the internet, PDA's? Still more technology that's here and now.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

1. What if it's the left hand or back of head or elbow or ear or foot?

Answered that in my previous post. We can play around with "what if's" all day but what does practical experience show? I'd like to hear your response to that.

Do we still go to hell for all eternity over something like that? (If the Lord can forgive some of my own sins, then surely he can forgive a misunderstanding about the location of a chip?

Depends on whether or not there really is a misunderstanding. This is why you keep missing the point. You're trying too hard to win an argument about literal vs non-literal instead of examining the spiritual lesson behind the mark. We will either trust God for our provision our we'll trust in materialism.

Or is this more about trusting in worldly wealth and mammon, and more like everything Jesus said in the NT about serving God, not wealth?

Again you are missing the point. Neither the Revelation nor the teaching of Jesus are "more like" than the other. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. The ultimate subject of all prophecy in the Revelation, in one way or another, is Jesus. That's why the opening sentence starts off, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". For example, the answer to the Mark of the Beast is Jesus' teachings about living by faith and working for love vs working for mammon (money and the things money can buy).

In other words, is this a normal gospel warning restated rather than demonising some money technology?)

"Demonising money technology"? How ironic that the prophecy specifically denotes the purpose of the Mark to be to control buying and selling, and that this purpose will be promoted by the Beast, but in this discussion you seem to see it as "demonising" to press that point clearly and consistently.

 

[keras]

No. When every year is hotter than the year before, and when CO2 has been proven time and again to trap heat, then I maintain my right as a free citizen to have this as my signature. If you doubt CO2 can trap heat, go to a physics lab and ask them about it. Stop the conspiracy theory paranoia, and start thinking.

Yes, I know the greenhouse operators boost the CO2 to improve plant growth.
I take no cognizance of any 'conspiracy theories', I just believe what the Bible prophets say.
What the Lord has planned for His creation, has nothing to do with how we humans have messed up our home. Global Warming is just a 'red herring' that has no place in a Christian Forum.

 

[eclipsenow]

Answered that in my previous post. We can play around with "what if's" all day but what does practical experience show? I'd like to hear your response to that.

So you're not going to answer how literally you take this after all. Fine. I'm saying the passage was about Christians being forced to buy tickets to the Roman arena to watch their brothers and sisters cut down... or else! I think the idea of God sending us to hell because we use a hand-bankcard thingy is silly. There's nothing wrong with money as a means of exchange: it's our heats and what we trust in that is important. There's nothing wrong with various credit card chips as a technology. And, if you're going to get hyper-literalistic about this passage, what if governments created a chip for our LEFT hand or back of our heads so as not to offend Christians? If you're going to read this as a literal prophecy about our future, then surely the left hand is OK. Surely God hates a specific money technology. In other words, surely it's silly to say God hates a technology.

Dr Paul Barnett explains that the Jews were reporting Christians who did not attend. This persecution was foremost in John's mind as he wrote the letter. (See Chapter 1). It was soon, near, and he shared in their tribulation.

The mark on the hand is that by going to the arena, they had defiled themselves and left their hands unclean. They had submitted to the Satanic false prophet of Caesar cult worship. They may as well have written his name on their foreheads, just as the symbolism in the next chapter has all God's people with HIS glorious name on their foreheads.

Depends on whether or not there really is a misunderstanding. This is why you keep missing the point. You're trying too hard to win an argument about literal vs non-literal instead of examining the spiritual lesson behind the mark. We will either trust God for our provision our we'll trust in materialism.​

How do you like the spiritual lesson above?

Again you are missing the point. Neither the Revelation nor the teaching of Jesus are "more like" than the other. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. The ultimate subject of all prophecy in the Revelation, in one way or another, is Jesus. That's why the opening sentence starts off, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". For example, the answer to the Mark of the Beast is Jesus' teachings about living by faith and working for love vs working for mammon (money and the things money can buy).​

I did not set one against the other: you did by placing this as some kind of future once-off tribulation. I'm the one saying that the mark of the beast is FAR MORE like Jesus warnings on mammon and applies to all Christians in all ages: do not worship the state or desire to belong to their economy more than obedience to God. You would separate this out as a 'special' time with 'special' technology for a 'special' period of suffering in the future, completely cut off from John's generation.

"Demonising money technology"? How ironic that the prophecy specifically denotes the purpose of the Mark to be to control buying and selling, and that this purpose will be promoted by the Beast, but in this discussion you seem to see it as "demonising" to press that point clearly and consistently.​

What? No idea who you're talking to at the moment.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, I know the greenhouse operators boost the CO2 to improve plant growth.
I take no cognizance of any 'conspiracy theories', I just believe what the Bible prophets say.
What the Lord has planned for His creation, has nothing to do with how we humans have messed up our home. Global Warming is just a 'red herring' that has no place in a Christian Forum.

I'm a Christian, and trust that I'm eternally safe in the Lord. But that only makes me more responsible for how I live and vote in the light of global warming. I am convinced this is the single biggest factor that can make any other cause you care about so much worse. The plight of the poor? Refugees? Third world nations? Mass migration? Fresh water for the poor and underprivileged? Starvation? Conflict? The rights of women and children in conflict zones? Abuse and slavery? ALL of these, every single one, can be made a thousand to a million times worse if we ignore climate change and keep burning fossil fuels! As a Christian, I implore you to be careful and not flippant about this topic. I think we have a duty to carefully remove any political or cultural blinkers, investigate the science, and then think it through from a theological point of view. A good start might be from an Anglican minister mate of mine, Byron Smith, who wrote for Australia's bible society.
http://www.biblesociety.org.au/news/the-theology-of-climate-change-part-one

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The mark on the hand is that by going to the arena, they had defiled themselves and left their hands unclean.

Except that's not what the prophecy describes. It meticulously lists all classes of people and specifically says they cannot buy or sell, period, without the "mark" on the right hand (or forehead). Your thing about the arena neither addresses the spiritual aspect of our dependence on materialism nor does it address the role of the Mark in the over-all picture of prophecy (i.e. how it fits in with the other aspects of the Beasts' system).

Essentially, your "arena" theory conveniently explains away any need to examine our dependence on materialism.

There's nothing wrong with money as a means of exchange: it's our heats and what we trust in that is important.

So, what does your heart communicate when you refuse to help someone who either can't, or won't pay you for that help?

'm the one saying that the mark of the beast is FAR MORE like Jesus warnings on mammon and applies to all Christians in all ages: do not worship the state or desire to belong to their economy more than obedience to God.

Except, "do not serve one more than the other" is neither what Jesus taught nor what the prophecy says about the Mark. In both cases it will be one or the other; no middle ground. Jesus said we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other. He went so far as to suggest that we'd love one and hate the other.

He didn't forbid the use of money, probably because we are "in the world, but not of the world". He told his followers to sell what they have and they apparently used money to help the poor. The early church sold all they had and shared all things in common; apparently they still used the money collectively.

However, there is a difference between using money and working to get more of it. For example, if someone gives you a few dollars as a donation/gift or you find some money blowing around on the footpath then use it, but don't charge for your love (i.e. time, skills, abilities etc) because that's the point at which you cross over from being "in" the world (yet separate) to being "of" the worldly system (participating in it's principle of wages for love).

The struggle between the values of Heaven (i.e. working for love) vs the values of the world (i.e. working for a wage) has been around for thousands of years. It's always been a problem. It doesn't take microchips or computer scans to act in greed and fear.

The Mark represents the final warning on this issue. That it was predicted with such stunning accuracy 2000 years in advance is the miracle which adds weight to the warning.

What? No idea who you're talking to at the moment.

You suggested that I was demonizing "money technology". It's a strange conclusion because I've been saying all along that the purpose of the Mark is to get us to question our relationship to money and why we believe we cannot live without it. Your responses suggest that you think I'm being somehow unfair to the concept of dependence on materialism.

Perhaps you should elaborate if you feel I've misunderstood your position.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It's a little creepy, when you realize you can shop all day with a debit or credit card, down to gas pumps and some vending machines now. I wish I knew more about the technology, but have thought RFID the quickest and most economical implementation,

Yup, from an economical point of view, it's much more efficient than paper money. One of the reasons why a cashless society is so attractive to governments (in particular) is because it helps to cut down on tax evasion. It's attractive for banks because they will get a teeny tiny cut of every swipe of the microchip. It's beneficial for marketers because it will be easier to track spending habits.

I've been amazed how quickly new store checkout technology can start appearing everywhere, like touchscreens did.

The technology has existed for a couple decades now. It's been slow getting people used to it, but as has been the case all throughout history, change in inevitable. The infrastructure is developing slowly, but it is developing.

But something about RFID, isn't it true the chips can be scanned from some distance?

I'm not sure what the distance would be.

The word for "mark" in Revelation also implies something imprinted, stamped. By scripture, this could make one lean more towards the sort of scanning done of barcodes.

Barcodes are still a possibility, but I think as time goes by microchips make more and more sense. A tattooable barcode could possibly be used as some kind of exception to the rule or under special circumstances.

The word "mark" in the context of how it's used, has a few different meanings, one of which denotes agreement. The spiritual lesson behind the Mark is ultimately one of loyalty; will we stay loyal to the principles of Heaven (i.e. depending on God) or the principles of the world (i.e. depending on wages).

It occurs to me the mark would not have to be tied to the transaction in a monetary sense: nothing would have to change in the banking arrangement, if the mark were simply permission to proceed with commerce the usual way we do now, but needing a mark of allegiance.

The method will be different (i.e. electronic records vs cash) but the principle will stay the same; money makes the world go round. Allegiance is just a synonym for loyalty and that's what the Mark is all about; who do we really trust, God or money?

Another technological impossibility in previous times involves this, Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. How could the whole world see the dead bodies of the two witnesses, before satellite television, also the internet, PDA's? Still more technology that's here and now.

I think this is a pretty reasonable conclusion which makes sense. Thanks for sharing it.