[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

stephen583 said:

The predictions (prophecies) made by Jesus about the End Times, as well as all the other prophets of the Bible and the Apostles, included in the Word of God will be completely fulfilled word for word, to the letter.

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Clearly you don't even believe that yourself, if you are still waiting for their fulfillment:

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

“Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

“You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

“…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

“The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

You reject the fulfillment of the above verses "to the letter" and instead prefer to spiritualize and elasticize the plain literal words above into some mystical metaphor that suits your pre determined, anti literal bias.

parousia70 said:

You reject the fulfillment of the above verses "to the letter" and instead prefer to spiritualize and elasticize the plain literal words above into some mystical metaphor that suits your pre determined, anti literal bias.

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I'm not even sure what you just said. It was so convoluted and verbose, it virtually defies translation.

"IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN SOMETHING SIMPLY, YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH"
(Albert Einstein).

stephen583 said:

I'm not even sure what you just said. It was so convoluted and verbose, it virtually defies translation.

"IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN SOMETHING SIMPLY, YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH"
(Albert Einstein).

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That you lack clarity about your own beliefs is not my challenge.

I'm not responsible for clarifying what it is you believe.

Lets look at just one of the passages I cited and you can tell us how you believe it was, or will be, literally fulfilled, as you said "word for word, to the letter":

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

eclipsenow said:

I'm just trying to comprehend what you mean by 'now'. Are you saying this is the End Times right now? (As an Amil, I think we've been in them since Acts 2).

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I predict a misleading dodge where they claim it's been "the End Times"for the last 2000 odd years.

stephen583 said:

I'm not even sure what you just said. It was so convoluted and verbose, it virtually defies translation.

"IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN SOMETHING SIMPLY, YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH"
(Albert Einstein).

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That was precisely his point.

Michael said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...moon-and-meteor-strike-prophecy-10491339.html

I guess I'm actually rather amazed at how many people seem to have an undo fascination with the "end of times". Every generation thinks that they live in the end times, and they're sure that all the signs clearly demonstrate that they are living in the end times, but the world just keeps right on plugging and chugging. The Bible tells us that nobody can actually predict the time or date in the first place, so what exactly *is* the big psychological fascination with various 'end of the world' claims and false prophesies anyway? Why isn't it always seen as another 'cry wolf' claim?

I kinda hoped that after all the "end of the Mayan calendar" hype was done and behind us, and the dust of disappointment had finally settled over the new age masses, that things would slow down for awhile. Quite the opposite seems to be occurring. It seems like every other month another end of the world "prediction" comes along, just as a previous one bites the dust like all the rest. It's like a revolving door of never ending "end of the world" fixations.

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"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree ..."

That doesn't sound like a Christian to me! Christianity stands alone and apart from the rest. I would say that all false religions come from the same tree. All false philosophies and religions came out of Babylon.
But let's discuss "end time" prophecies which you seem to be false fixations of people's imagination.
First of all, Jesus gave us predictions of the end times. The books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Matthew, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Revelation to name a few all speak of the end times. Jesus gave us signs to look for and just because previous generations have gotten it wrong, doesn't follow that this is the generation that will experience the end times. He said the key sign to signal this is: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matt. 24:14 This has about been fulfilled, it has gone to every nation, has it not. In any other generation, you could not make that claim! Another main prophetic scripture points to Israel becoming a nation as a sign. This happened in 1948. Then they recaptured Jerusalem in 1967. One generation (defined by King David in Psalm 90:10) is seventy years. That would bring us to 2018.
Another sign we can see occurring right now is within the movement of the Beast, which is to me Is__m. Here is the signature activity that is going in many countries: "And I saw thrones, and they sta on them, and judgment was committed to them, the I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not receive his mark on their foreheads or on their hands ..." Rev.20:4 It's curious that this number 666 (the mark) may have been misinterpreted in the original manuscripts as Greek alphabet symbols representing numbers. Rather they were Arabic symbols that clearly look like two swords crossing each other followed by symbols that mean (in the name of allah), a mark that is commonly warn by Muslims.
So, maybe you should open your eyes and see what is actually going on right now, things that could not be claimed a signs in any other time.

There is a difference between---last days, end of days, time of the end---and no more time.

Most verses talk about last days--but only one says --no more time.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In the WEBS it reads "there will no longer be delay
LITV "time shall no longer be"
ASV "shall be delay no longer"


End times may be here a while--but end of time will not last long at all.

mmksparbud said:

There is a difference between---last days, end of days, time of the end---and no more time.

Most verses talk about last days--but only one says --no more time.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In the WEBS it reads "there will no longer be delay
LITV "time shall no longer be"
ASV "shall be delay no longer"


End times may be here a while--but end of time will not last long at all.

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At the time when the seventh angel blows the final trumpet, what we are all waiting for, the consumption of His promises will occur and this happens right in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.
Here what happens at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15):
*The mystery of God is revealed! (Rev. 10:7)
*Christ appears!
*The resurrection of church occurs (we receive new bodies)!
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's!
*The dead are resurrected and judged!
*The Temple of God is open in heaven!
*We receiver rewards!
*The Bowls of Wrath are released! This means there is more judgment to come after our resurrection. It also means that after the judgment, a 1000 year kingdom of peace will transpire -- that also means it is not the end yet.

Ronald said:

At the time when the seventh angel blows the final trumpet, what we are all waiting for, the consumption of His promises will occur and this happens right in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.
Here what happens at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15):
*The mystery of God is revealed! (Rev. 10:7)
*Christ appears!
*The resurrection of church occurs (we receive new bodies)!
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's!
*The dead are resurrected and judged!
*The Temple of God is open in heaven!
*We receiver rewards!
*The Bowls of Wrath are released! This means there is more judgment to come after our resurrection. It also means that after the judgment, a 1000 year kingdom of peace will transpire -- that also means it is not the end yet.

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Are you listing these events in chronological order?

Because if so you have the living preceding the dead in resurrection, contrary to the explicit teaching of scripture found here:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

parousia70 said:

Are you listing these events in chronological order?

Because if so you have the living preceding the dead in resurrection, contrary to the explicit teaching of scripture found here:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

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No, the dead "in Christ" shall rise first, meaning all Christians who have died for the last 1984 years. And then we who are alive will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye. And yes, at the sound of the seventh trumpet (which I believe to be the last), all of these things occur. Rewards too? I would say yes, in that moment, though we enjoy them for eternity.

parousia70 said:

Clearly you don't even believe that yourself, if you are still waiting for their fulfillment:

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

“Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

“You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

“…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

“The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

You reject the fulfillment of the above verses "to the letter" and instead prefer to spiritualize and elasticize the plain literal words above into some mystical metaphor that suits your pre determined, anti literal bias.

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1. In Matt. 24:34, Since this chapter includes the events surrounding not only the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD but also the Second Coming of the Lord and the end of the age, "this generation" can mean the Christian generation, including all Christians til the end times occurs. In Matthew 1 it opens up with the "generation of Jesus Christ" beginning with Abraham through David's line and ending with Jesus meaning all 42 generations inclusive. That's one way of supporting this view. However, when you look at the context of that verse, Jesus is speaking of events surrounding His return, not the fall of Jerusalem. He goes back and forth answering that three-part question that encompasses lots of time in between the events foretold. So either way you look at it, it is not referring to the Disciples generation only.
2. 1 Cor. 10:11, "ends of ages" there were different ages in our history, many dispensations if you will; and the Church Age is the final.
3. Heb. 10:37 needs to be read in context. This chapter is talking about faith in Jesus, the message of faith that has gone out to ALL generations. Persevere through trials, "don't cast away your confidence", "endure so that after you've done the will of God you may receive your promise". "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith ..." That means when you live by faith and die, He comes to greet you at the moment of your death. It is incorrect to extrapolate a verse and apply it to the end times or even some past generation. Context, context, context!
4. 1 John 2:18 again, in context, the chapter is talking about sin, our test of knowing Christ, to not love and conform to the world, it's passing away, and antichrists are present, "...it's your last hour" meaning you are about to die. This is a message to that particular generation and to all generations.
5. In 1 Peter 4:7, "the end of all things is at hand" is obviously not stating that time ended 1950 years ago? What did end was these individuals lives. It was a letter to prepare them for what was about to happen to them specifically. " Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as some strange thing happened to you." (vs 12) Rejoice as you partake in Christ's sufferings. And judgment begins with them first. But that was not Judgment Day for the world, which is soon coming. Jesus even said, there is one life and one death and then the judgment. So everyone who dies is judged at that time.
6. James 5:8 "coming of the Lord is at hand" -- this is a message to all generations. (see explanation #3). Every Christian who dies gets to see the Lord immediately. This verse in context is speaking of patience, perseverance and hope. I really don't think it's a literal message that pertains to the Second Coming during the Great Tribulation.
7. Finally, in Rev. 1:1, "things that must shortly take place" doesn't mean all that is in Revelation, it means some of the things need immediate attention. Certainly, in verse 7, "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him ... and all the tribes of the earth will mourn ..." didn't happen yet. That didn't happen in 70 A.D. and btw, most scholars (with the exception of Preterists), believe Revelation was written around 95 A.D., so none of it pertained to the fall of Jerusalem. The letters to the churches needed immediate attention, but they were churches that were well established for decades. The church in Smyrna did not even exist prior to 70 A.D. and I can go into a detailed argument for this book being written around 95 A.D.

Why not stick with chapters like Daniel 12; Joel 2; 1 Cor. 14; 1 Thes. 4; Ezek. 37-38; Zech. 12; Revelation 6 -18, where it specifically speaks of the Lords Day / Judgment Day / the Great Tribulation in context.

Ronald said:

The letters to the churches needed immediate attention

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In light of that declaration, please show us the immediate attention needed here:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 3:3

parousia70 said:

In light of that declaration, please show us the immediate attention needed here:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 3:3

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Right, the letters to the Churches were specific messages to that generation and time but they are also applied to the Church Age as well. We can see those sins within our churches and within ourselves as well. That said, Jesus warned each church (with the exception of Philadelphia and Smyrna) that if they did not repent, He would take away their lampstand. If a person does not repent after warnings are given, Jesus can take them out like a thief in the night. God gives life and takes it away as swift and as shocking as it may be. Death comes unannounced and sometimes without warning. So we are to get right with God or else, judgment can come swiftly.

Ronald said:

At the time when the seventh angel blows the final trumpet, what we are all waiting for, the consumption of His promises will occur and this happens right in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.
Here what happens at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15):
*The mystery of God is revealed! (Rev. 10:7)
*Christ appears!
*The resurrection of church occurs (we receive new bodies)!
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's!
*The dead are resurrected and judged!
*The Temple of God is open in heaven!
*We receiver rewards!
*The Bowls of Wrath are released! This means there is more judgment to come after our resurrection. It also means that after the judgment, a 1000 year kingdom of peace will transpire -- that also means it is not the end yet.

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I believe the bowls are also finished at the seventh trumpet. Per the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13), I don't believe it's possible for the church to be gathered prior to the tares being destroyed.

Ronald said:

Right, the letters to the Churches were specific messages to that generation and time but they are also applied to the Church Age as well. We can see those sins within our churches and within ourselves as well. That said, Jesus warned each church (with the exception of Philadelphia and Smyrna) that if they did not repent, He would take away their lampstand. If a person does not repent after warnings are given, Jesus can take them out like a thief in the night. God gives life and takes it away as swift and as shocking as it may be. Death comes unannounced and sometimes without warning. So we are to get right with God or else, judgment can come swiftly.

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Ok, so you believe the Bible teaches that the "Coming of Christ as a thief" is a repeating, personal event, that happens to each individual when he/she dies?

Do I have that correct?

Ronald said:

At the time when the seventh angel blows the final trumpet, what we are all waiting for, the consumption of His promises will occur and this happens right in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.
Here what happens at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15):
*The mystery of God is revealed! (Rev. 10:7)
*Christ appears!
*The resurrection of church occurs (we receive new bodies)!
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's!
*The dead are resurrected and judged!
*The Temple of God is open in heaven!
*We receiver rewards!
*The Bowls of Wrath are released! This means there is more judgment to come after our resurrection. It also means that after the judgment, a 1000 year kingdom of peace will transpire -- that also means it is not the end yet.

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Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

This parable tells me that the righteous won't be gathered until after the wicked are punished. So, I expect the seven bowls to be complete by the seventh trumpet as well.

Personally, I think the trumpets and bowls are like two cameras that capture one event from different angles - one universal (trumpets) and one on the government of the beast and his subjects (bowls). I can see what appears to be a relationship between the trumpets and bowls. Obviously this is a theory, but it makes the sense to me according to the full context of Scripture.

God bless!

parousia70 said:

Ok, so you believe the Bible teaches that the "Coming of Christ as a thief" is a repeating, personal event, that happens to each individual when he/she dies?

Do I have that correct?

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The main event of His Second Coming is like a thief in the night (for those who do not believe). 1 Thes. 5:4 says we are not in the dark that that day should overtake you as a thief.
That said, God gives life and takes it in a moment, like a thief in the night. If you do not put your faith in Jesus, your life and soul can be demanded by Him who judges all and you will be in darkness suffering instantly.

Ronald said:

The main event of His Second Coming is like a thief in the night (for those who do not believe). 1 Thes. 5:4 says we are not in the dark that that day should overtake you as a thief.
That said, God gives life and takes it in a moment, like a thief in the night. If you do not put your faith in Jesus, your life and soul can be demanded by Him who judges all and you will be in darkness suffering instantly.

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The idea here is of being in right relationship to Jesus so that He is our Lord and Saviour and Friend and Advocate, not a 'thief' that is going to catch us unprepared. It is about status, not timing; friendship, not threat; safety, not secret knowledge. Elsewhere Jesus said even He knew the time that was going to happen.

Ronald said:

At the time when the seventh angel blows the final trumpet, what we are all waiting for, the consumption of His promises will occur and this happens right in the middle of the Great Tribulation Period.
Here what happens at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15):
*The mystery of God is revealed! (Rev. 10:7)
*Christ appears!
*The resurrection of church occurs (we receive new bodies)!
*The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's!
*The dead are resurrected and judged!
*The Temple of God is open in heaven!
*We receiver rewards!
*The Bowls of Wrath are released! This means there is more judgment to come after our resurrection. It also means that after the judgment, a 1000 year kingdom of peace will transpire -- that also means it is not the end yet.

Click to expand...

I don't see the bowls as future when Jesus returns at or after the seventh trumpet. In Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus says both will remain until harvest, and the wicked will be gathered first (unto destruction). If Jesus gathers the righteous at the seventh trumpet, then the bowls must also be finished by that point, in my understanding. My theory is that the trumpets and bowls are parallel (like two camera views... one universal/global and one on the government of the beast/his subjects). I can see a potential relationship between each trumpet and bowl (e.g., trumpet 5 and bowl 5).

Luke17:37 said:

I don't see the bowls as future when Jesus returns at or after the seventh trumpet. In Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus says both will remain until harvest, and the wicked will be gathered first (unto destruction). If Jesus gathers the righteous at the seventh trumpet, then the bowls must also be finished by that point, in my understanding. My theory is that the trumpets and bowls are parallel (like two camera views... one universal/global and one on the government of the beast/his subjects). I can see a potential relationship between each trumpet and bowl (e.g., trumpet 5 and bowl 5).

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What if they're all happening now, and all represent different aspects of life in the "Last Days" which actually began 2000 years ago in Acts 2 as Peter says? What if they're biblical symbols indicating things we see in the world today, and giant locusts represent the worst things we fear: terrible droughts or pest-induced famines or potato blights that throw nations into chaos? I think Revelation gives us the comforting message that, just as Jesus said, there will be earthquakes and famines and wars and persecutions and dictators, but that God is in control and in the end, He will return and set things right. But a timetable? No. Not at all. It's a symbolic sermon about how to live in these times, with the good and bad, and not being tempted by the shiny bling that wants us to worship it, or the dictators promising worldly security that cannot really deliver anyway.